'Meat-eating'-correctness or otherwise-a deliberation

[Guest guest]

As long as the vast majority of mankind are soaked in the inertia of matter,- as

is the case in this age of strife,-there does not seem to be any valid objection

to the eating of meat and consequently, to the sacrificing of animals to get

meat.

 

Swami Vivekananda clearly says that people with a fundamentally 'tamasic'

nature, being given to indolence and inertia, must necessarily eat meat, to

awaken the 'rajasic' propensities in them.

 

Often, the quality of 'tamas' (the principle of ignorance and inertia) puts on

the cloak of 'sattva' (the principle of light). This is much more dangerous

than one's being obviously 'tamasic'.

 

Consumption of 'meat' in 'appropriate' quanitites, with a view to awaken the

'progressive' rajasic impulses, should then be considered to be perfectly in

order. There is no place for any sense of 'guilt'.

 

That being so, the meat, before being consumed, must 'most definitely' be

offered to the Divine Mother, Kaali. Of what avail is to consume any food, be

it meat or any other, without first having received into its contents, the

deposit of the 'Rays of Divine Light', emerging from the eyes of the 'Divine

Mother, Kaali' and falling onto the 'food offering' made to Her ? Otherwise,

the 'mere' eating of 'meat' will not awaken the 'rajasic' propensities in us,

washing away the 'tamasic' qualities accumulated, in sheer ignorance, over

births.

 

The mental ideal of 'shunning' meat on account of the principle of 'ahimsa' or

any other principle,- however noble these might appear on the surface of

things,-at any rate, cannot be done, in an antagonistic opposition, to one's

stage of development in 'spiritual evolution'.

 

Where avoidance of meat-eating, is appropriate to the stage of evolution one is

in,-

(1) whether one is so aware of it on the surface or not, and

(2) whether it is done by way of fulfilment of one's own solemn oath, or

otherwise,-

then, such avoidance is in line with one's nature and one's station of life, and

hence, conducive to the spiritual welfare of the person concerned.

 

However, when one is devoted to God, then even though the person might have

happened,-

(1) either out of a sattvic egosim, or

(2) out of a sense of an ill-conceived egoistic capacity,

God instills in the person, the capacity to resist:-

(1) the temptation to eat meat, and/or

(2) the inertia of motion of eating meat (arising from a long-standing

habit of meat-eating),

both of which arise in the person, on account the absence, at least of a

sufficient support, to the abstinence from meat-eating, in the 'inmost evolving

soul' of the person.

 

In any case, there are no hard and fast rules about these things. All depends

on the Will of the Divine Mother alone.

 

Even granting for a time that 'meat-eating' is absolutely sinful in respect of

all people, will the Divine Mother not accept, even the 'ignorant and sinful

meat-offering' of Her devotee and bless and purify even that very 'sinful' food

? Is She not the 'Mother' of all ? Again, are not all these cruel

animal-sacrifices, happening by Her Will alone ?

 

When a person like Sri Ramakrishna,-a perfect and full incarnation of God, and a

repository of infinite spiritual moods,-after completing all kinds of Saadhanaa,

touched with 'His' own hand and accepted the meat-offering to the Mother

(although He could not eat it) (to avoid incurring Her wrath!), why should we

worry about such things ?

 

An enlightened soul like Buddha is not subject to any rules, and his practising

ahimsa, obviously cannot be questioned.

 

If one feels deeply troubled, in an inner sense, by the 'animal-sacrifice', that

alone is sufficient for him to desist from eating meat for all time to come.

However, if such a person eats meat, merely on account of external compulsions,

he will definitely incur sin, for by such eating, he not only causes 'misery' to

the animal, but also to his own soul.

 

 

Allan Carpenter <ALLANC

Ramakrishna <Ramakrishna >

Thursday, July 22, 1999 2:12 PM

[ramakrishna] Kali's Sacrifice

 

 

ALLANC (Allan Carpenter)

 

Namaste!

 

This is the first time I've posted, although I've been reading

everyone's insightful thoughts here for a few months. It really does

make for fascinating reading!

 

Now, being an initiated Vedanta Society member, I have the deepest

respect for all forms of worship. But I have to admit to being deeply

troubled by the animal sacrifice to Kali as portrayed in Elizabeth

Harding's book " Kali: The Black Goddess of Dakshineswar " .

 

I know that in the West many of us eat meat, and most of us wear leather

or otherwise use animal products.I am also aware that animal sacrifice

was part of the Hebrew tradition, as well as part of the Muslim

pilgrimage. So I don't mean to single out the worshippers of Kali.

 

It is just that the Ramakrishna-Vivekananda tradition is so high-minded,

and so willing to change mores to make them more current (take, for

example, the much more enlightened view of women in the RV tradition).

 

So...what I want to know is this. Does the Ramakrishna Order in India

condone the sacrifice of animals, or simply tolerate it as a holdover

from a more brutal past? What of ahimsa? Can causing another creature

suffering persuade Divine Mother to look favorably upon the sacrificer?

Remember, the Buddha offered himself as sacrifice in order to save an

animal--wasn't that an example of truly divine behavior?

 

Ms. Harding asks in her book, " One wonders what (the sacrificial animal

would say) it prefers...to die in a modern slaughterhouse or at the

sacrificial pole of Kali " . To be frank....at least the butcher is

merely trying to make a living, and ot claiming his behavior has a

divine decree.

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/22/99 1:53:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shankar

writes:

 

<< Swami Vivekananda clearly says that people with a fundamentally 'tamasic'

nature, being given to indolence and inertia, must necessarily eat meat, to

awaken the 'rajasic' propensities in them. >>

 

Hi,

 

Swamiji said that those people who work in the world NEED to eat meat and

should not be encouraged to be vegetarian. Who is to determine who is

rajasic and who is tamasic???? I never read any statement by Swamiji in

which he indicated dietary rules for the different guna types. That would be

entirely out of character for him. If I have missed something in his

writings pertaining to this, I would like to know about that.

 

If one realizes one's own tamasic nature, then that very realization is an

indication of the awakened state of that person, thereby making it improbable

that he/she is tamasic. Tamas and self-awareness do not generally go hand in

hand. So, again, who is to determine who is tamasic?

 

Jody Hoelle

 

http://members.aol.com/JodyHolly1/index.html

[Guest guest]

Shankar, your wonderful post on meat-eating is appreciated! Thank you!

 

We all do what we think is best, yet cannot expect others to live up to whatever

our standards may be. In this way God experiences every possible manifestation

of Being. We are truly God being God, and the realization of this is the

experience of the unity of All. There is no right or wrong, there is only Being.

Any other way of thinking is dualistic, and rooted in ignorance (sense of

seperation). If one chooses to live in the realm of the relative, they are

welcome to have that experience as long as they wish. But in truth ALL is a

manifestation of the ONE.

 

Namaste,

Thomas

 

 

 

 

*******************************************************

 

" WE ARE EACH OUR OWN PATH "

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

find yourself

at the Arcanta website...

http://www.arcanta.com

__

 

NAMASTE

 

 

 

Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

[Guest guest]

Thomas, your comments reminded me of a prayer by Thomas Merton:

 

Dear God,

 

I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot

know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the

fact that I think I am following Your will does not mean that I am actually

doing so. But I believe this.

 

I believe that the desire to please You does in fact please You. I hope I

have this desire in everything I do. I hope I never do anything apart from

that desire. And I know that if I do this, You will lead me by the right

road, though I may know nothing about it at the time.

 

Therefore, I will trust You always, for though I may seem to be lost and in

the shadow of death, I will not be afraid because I know a You will never

leave me to face any troubles alone.

 

 

-

Thomas <arcanta

<Ramakrishna >

Thursday, July 22, 1999 2:21 PM

Re: [ramakrishna] 'Meat-eating'-correctness or otherwise-a

deliberation

 

 

> " Thomas " <arcanta

>

>

> Shankar, your wonderful post on meat-eating is appreciated! Thank you!

>

> We all do what we think is best, yet cannot expect others to live up to

whatever our standards may be. In this way God experiences every possible

manifestation of Being. We are truly God being God, and the realization of

this is the experience of the unity of All. There is no right or wrong,

there is only Being. Any other way of thinking is dualistic, and rooted in

ignorance (sense of seperation). If one chooses to live in the realm of the

relative, they are welcome to have that experience as long as they wish. But

in truth ALL is a manifestation of the ONE.

>

> Namaste,

> Thomas

>

>

>

>

> *******************************************************

>

> " WE ARE EACH OUR OWN PATH "

>

> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> find yourself

> at the Arcanta website...

> http://www.arcanta.com

> __

>

> NAMASTE

>

>

>

> Angelfire for your free web-based e-mail. http://www.angelfire.com

>

> --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

> Enter ONElist's WEEKLY DRAWING for $100!

>

> By joining the FRIENDS & FAMILY PROGRAM. See homepage for details.

>

> ------

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

[Guest guest]

I cannot exactly recollect in which page of the 'Complete Works of Swami

Vivekaanandaa',-running to about 4000-odd pages in 8 volumes,-I read this. I

read this in 1990 in India. Now I am in Botswana, Africa. For reasons of

'weight', I did not bring any of them here.

 

But, I do think that Swamiji made specific observations on 'diet' for people

endowed with different 'gunas'. Nevertheless, it must be mentioned that my

memory is not very good.

 

 

Premadevi <Premadevi

Ramakrishna <Ramakrishna >

Friday, July 23, 1999 4:38 AM

Re: [ramakrishna] 'Meat-eating'-correctness or otherwise-a deliberation

 

 

>Premadevi

>

>In a message dated 7/22/99 1:53:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shankar

>writes:

>

><< Swami Vivekananda clearly says that people with a fundamentally 'tamasic'

>nature, being given to indolence and inertia, must necessarily eat meat, to

>awaken the 'rajasic' propensities in them. >>

>

>Hi,

>

>Swamiji said that those people who work in the world NEED to eat meat and

>should not be encouraged to be vegetarian. Who is to determine who is

>rajasic and who is tamasic???? I never read any statement by Swamiji in

>which he indicated dietary rules for the different guna types. That would be

>entirely out of character for him. If I have missed something in his

>writings pertaining to this, I would like to know about that.

>

>If one realizes one's own tamasic nature, then that very realization is an

>indication of the awakened state of that person, thereby making it improbable

>that he/she is tamasic. Tamas and self-awareness do not generally go hand in

>hand. So, again, who is to determine who is tamasic?

>

>Jody Hoelle

>

>http://members.aol.com/JodyHolly1/index.html

>

>--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ----------------------------

>

>Create a list for FRIENDS & FAMILY...

>

>...and you can WIN $100 to Amazon.com. See homepage for details.

>

>------

>Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

>Vivekananda Centre London

>http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/

>

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 22 Jul 1999 Premadevi wrote:

 

> Premadevi

>

> In a message dated 7/22/99 1:53:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shankar

> writes:

>

> << Swami Vivekananda clearly says that people with a fundamentally 'tamasic'

> nature, being given to indolence and inertia, must necessarily eat meat, to

> awaken the 'rajasic' propensities in them. >>

>

> Hi,

>

> Swamiji said that those people who work in the world NEED to eat meat and

> should not be encouraged to be vegetarian.

 

Jody the words sounds unclear to me. Can u provide more insight ? I guess

everyone works in this world.

 

 

Well i am thinking of something like that bad part is taken care of

through such acts as eating meat. In persons who eats meat. Bad part in

one wants to express itself if not be meat it will be something else.

 

Plants too have life it's just that there pain n suffering is not audible.

But there fruits fall by themselves (many of them).

 

Sure high attained yogis can live w/o food.

 

 

> Who is to determine who is

> rajasic and who is tamasic???? I never read any statement by Swamiji in

> which he indicated dietary rules for the different guna types. That would be

> entirely out of character for him. If I have missed something in his

> writings pertaining to this, I would like to know about that.

>

> If one realizes one's own tamasic nature, then that very realization is an

> indication of the awakened state of that person, thereby making it improbable

> that he/she is tamasic. Tamas and self-awareness do not generally go hand in

> hand. So, again, who is to determine who is tamasic?

>

> Jody Hoelle

>

> http://members.aol.com/JodyHolly1/index.html

>

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Thomas wrote:

 

> " Thomas " <arcanta

>

>

> Shankar, your wonderful post on meat-eating is appreciated! Thank you!

>

> We all do what we think is best, yet cannot expect others to live up to

whatever our standards may be. In this way God experiences every possible

manifestation of Being. We are truly God being God, and the realization of

this is the experience of the unity of All. There is no right or wrong, there

is only Being. Any other way of thinking is dualistic, and rooted in

ignorance (sense of seperation). If one chooses to live in the realm of the

relative, they are welcome to have that experience as long as they wish.

But in truth ALL is a manifestation of the ONE.

>

> Namaste,

> Thomas

>

 

Can't say wat God does n why he does ?

 

I think the moment we say we r lord we become separate from him. We can be

one with him only w/o any thoughts of like who am i ?

 

I remember something like a man who has been serving in slaughter house

for whole life can also achieve mokshaa by following Karma Yogaa.

 

 

I think if one hurts someone that is wrong . One can hurt someone when

one gets involved with one n in it forgets ones real nature . The one who

is beyond right/wrong will never do an act for something selfish not even

if one has to give of one's body.

[Guest guest]

On Thu, 22 Jul 1999, Ron wrote:

 

> " Ron " <drifter1

>

> Thomas, your comments reminded me of a prayer by Thomas Merton:

>

> Dear God,

>

> I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot

> know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the

> fact that I think I am following Your will does not mean that I am actually

> doing so. But I believe this.

>

> I believe that the desire to please You does in fact please You. I hope I

> have this desire in everything I do. I hope I never do anything apart from

> that desire. And I know that if I do this, You will lead me by the right

> road, though I may know nothing about it at the time.

>

> Therefore, I will trust You always, for though I may seem to be lost and in

> the shadow of death, I will not be afraid because I know a You will never

> leave me to face any troubles alone.

 

Please Lord why ? wat for ? Can love be counted as pleasing ?

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 7/23/99 1:57:40 PM Pacific Daylight Time,

anurag writes:

 

<< Swamiji said that those people who work in the world NEED to eat meat and

> should not be encouraged to be vegetarian.

 

Jody the words sounds unclear to me. Can u provide more insight ? I guess

everyone works in this world. >>

 

Hi,

 

Swamiji was referring to people who work in the COMPETITIVE world. Not

everyone works in the COMPETITIVE world. I don't. But for those who need

energy to COMPETE in order to maintain a means of making a living, meat is

necessary. As I write this, I am half-awake since I just awakened, but I

hope that gives clarity.

 

And yes, Swamiji did eat meat. Swamiji, like Jesus, came to revive and renew

the SPIRIT of religion and get past the FORM.

 

Om Shanti!

Jody

[Guest guest]

jody meat is not a necessity to lead a competing life. I have seen

people who hard work in farms n who r vegetarian. Wrestlers n players who

r vegetarian n r leading in there fields. Vegetarian fodd can provide all

the enrgy one needs n moreover if knows how to harness the energy out of

meditation one has the infinite source of energy.

 

 

> Hi,

>

> Swamiji was referring to people who work in the COMPETITIVE world. Not

> everyone works in the COMPETITIVE world. I don't. But for those who need

> energy to COMPETE in order to maintain a means of making a living, meat is

> necessary. As I write this, I am half-awake since I just awakened, but I

> hope that gives clarity.

>

> And yes, Swamiji did eat meat. Swamiji, like Jesus, came to revive and renew

> the SPIRIT of religion and get past the FORM.

>

> Om Shanti!

> Jody

>