Guest guest Posted August 2, 1999 Report Share Posted August 2, 1999 Hi Everyone, Jay, Thank you for such an *honest* and forthright summation of the difficult questions of spiritual life! Sometimes for me, the most healing and freeing thing has been to admit, " I wonder! " Everyone, I would appreciate your honest comments and insights on my experience of the weekend. I am open to your corrections and criticisms! I appreciate having you all as " e-satsang " . I was engaged this weekend in discussions with a friend who had been very disillusioned by the what she perceived as many Vedantists' escapist ideas. In her mind, many Vedantists' " deny " their emotional and psychological self, and seek to focus only on the Trancendental, which to my friend seems false and hypocritical if one has not taken care of the psychological plane. My friend has a Vedanta and inter-faith background (and is a psychologist). Myself, I *do* believe that it is good to offer a healthy psyche to the Divine! (I mean, we do it for mangoes!) But, I said that, for example, if my bowels are malfunctioning (nasty example, but I had had a very spicy lunch!!! :-) ) that I would certainly pay attention to them and take steps to fix the problem -- but that other than such a case, I really don't want to discuss them all the time!!! How wearisome that would become! :-) I feel the same way about psychological issues of what I think of as the " lower " psyche (related to our personality, thoughts, life experiences, etc.). I do not deny that it is important to keep in good health, but seemed to have a hard time explaining that while I do not dishonor it, I prefer not to dwell on it or spend much time analyzing it. I think I ruffled her feathers. Now, I will try to present her feeling, though I am sure I will do it poorly. To her, all is a manifestation of the Mother. Period. That includes the psyche. The phrases Sahaja Samadhi versus Nirvikalpa samadhi came up during this discussion, I think the point being that if I do not see the psyche as God then it is because I am experiencing separation rather than unity. I am experiencing " level confusion. " Also the phrases the " immanent " God in an unconscious creation versus creation that was conscious of its divinity, versus the " transcendent " God came up in this conversation. To her the psyche is very important and she sees no separation between it and other experience. So we spent quite a bit of time discussing my psyche. She believes in being pro-active about the psyche's health, and that this is very important to spiritual life. But for me, the " focus " on that aspect was very unbalanced in our visit. Her view is that that is God as well, so why am I resistant? My view is, " I am not interested in my personality issues unless they are causing problems " . ) To me (and for me -- I'm not trying to generalize and say everyone should feel this way), all this seems very simple and plain. When the body ills, take care of it. when the psyche ills take care of it. If it operates on the physical level, take care of it on that level. If you break you arm, see a doctor. Ditto for psychological level. If your psyche is ailing, talk with a counselor. See the body and the psyche as divine. But, for me, I do not want my *focus* to be there. I think of the story Sri Ramakrishna told -- the servant thinks of the employer's child as " My Hari " , and takes good care of him, but is inwardly detached. Now I cannot say that I see the Divine in everything all the time. But it is truly my practice and desire to do so more and more. But I feel there is room within that context for some " discrimination " as the objects of focus in our inner life. But perhaps that is MY immaturity in equal-sightedness. But then again, I think of Sri Ramakrishna wailing to Mother when he was bought to a very worldy environment " Oh Mother, why did you bring me here! " My visit with my friend left me very drained and frustrated. In what perhaps she would think of an escapist action, I " retreated " for healing to that Other Place where it does not matter. Some issues are worth grappling with, and others, perhaps we sometimes need the courage to say " Who cares?? " :-) On the other hand, I very much want to reach out to my friend and try to understand her point of view. She has had bad experiences with the Vedanta movement. In general, they did not agree with her and kind of even shunned her (her description), which I can begin to understand if she was always trying to (I hate to use this phrase, for it resonates too closely with her idea of escapism, but it was the first that came to mind: ) drag their minds down to the psychological level. But she seems to feel that may I somehow can be a healing friend for her in this area, since I agree with her somewhat but not totally, and am accepting of her -- I am not trying to " transcendentalize " her. So, if anyone can offer me insights into these issues, your experience of Vedanta, how you balance these things in your own life and practice, I would be grateful. I am really open and promise not to be critical of your honest thoughts, as we are all different. I hope to grow in my understanding. If not, I shall say simply that I am a " small pot " and " my brain is full " :-) OM TAT SAT. Namaste to all of you, Karen Westend Ashram Vivekananda Centre wrote: > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > >There is a list which seeks to develop science/spirituality ideas. > >A few list members requested an explanation of the use of 'dream idea' in > >Hindu philosophy. This was the reply I gave:- > > Thanks for the encouragement to contribute. > All religions that believe in God have to face some tricky questions: > > If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any suffering? > There can be no lame excuses. > We hear of standard replies like -- God testing us to make us perfect for > his Kingdom.... God gave us free will hence we are responsible.... all sorts > of answers given.........none too satisfying for me. ( My response is a > perfect God can click his fingers and make everything perfect from the word > go.....An almighty and all-compassionate God can never tolerate one living > thing suffering for one instant - let alone for long periods). > > Or the other question all religions have to answer: - > Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create? > Again similar answers given ...none really that satisfying for me. > > Reply from rational Hinduism says, 'I do not know - why all this?' > > Still the question does not go away. So attempts have to be made to explain > this imperfect world and this creation. > > One interesting response is the Hindu thought that says, > " In a dream world you may feel pain -- you may see this and that-- good and > bad and all sorts of nonsense. It all appears very real and somehow > connected in the dream and yet when you wake up you say none of it was > real. " > > " So perhaps this world in a way is really a nightmare we are living through > (there can be some good bits in a nightmare too!). None of this is really > true. We were never born, never suffered, there was no evil, no good or bad, > all these ideas of perfection, and imperfection - were never there. > There was no creation. It is all a dream! " > > Let us develop this further by making a critical observation. > One can argue that this appears to be an escapist answer. We are denying > the problem. By denying this we are also denying this world and our own > Selves. May be then there is nothing left to hang on to. All is a dream and > the fact that we wake up and realise this is a dream is equally a dream > too!! When we run away from 'all this' as a dream we may have nothing left! > > This Hindu philosophy responds in a bold manner by saying:- > " Yes we have no proof that we can use or communicate in this 'dreamlike > world' that will show that this is really a dreamlike world and that there > is something more besides this dream " . In fact even this example of 'the > world being dreamlike' is also too limited an analogy and cannot be used to > extreme to explain or illustrate the underlying reality of what this is all > about. > (Hinduism explains, " this concepts of dream etc also occurs in this state of > dream so we cannot take this example too far either as it is too > limited --it too belongs to this dreamy state!). Yet we have very little > else to fall back on so some may want to use this limited example. > When we wake up we feel absolutely sure we are awake and the dream state was > just that --a dream. So in spirituality too we also 'Wake up' and then we > can make such claims (not before!) and become prophets who then have the > authority to guide mankind regarding the true nature of this universe and > ourselves. > > What do these prophets who 'have woken up' say? > They say the nature of this universe is absolutely divine, superb. > Our true nature is equally divine and equally superb. > They say, " Find your true Self (or the true nature of this reality that is > in front of us as the universe) - there is nothing more thrilling " . > > (In fact they say words: superb, divine, thrilling are too bland to really > convey what they are on about). > > So we sit and muse over such stuff. We can look up their lives to see if > they match upto what they are saying. Have they really tasted something > that thrilling? We wonder. > > jay > Vivekananda Centre London > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > Congratulations DALMATIANRESCUE. Our latest ONElist of the week. > To see full story and submit YOUR ONElist story, go to > /info/ootw_19.html > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 1999 Report Share Posted August 2, 1999 Hi Karen, You bring up some very valid, interesting points in relation to the spiritual path. To me, being on a spiritual path brings up a lot of our internal stuff. If we can witness our samskaras which are brought up so powerfully by the shakti, and not get caught in the web of the mind, we can learn a lot about our belief system. I agree with Kathi in that we need to keep our focus on God through japa, meditation, reading, etc. The purification process is a powerful one, and I do believe that your friend is going through her own purification process, trying to sort through her own beliefs and find an effective way to deal with her emotions. This is good! The only thing we can do for one another is to allow ourselves to be where we are at. The more you try to argue with her, the more her mind will hold fast to its belliefs. That is the nature of the mind. The only interest of the mind is survival and the mind gets to survive by being right. So, let her mind be right, thus enabling her to move through her process. Allow her to be where she is at. See the Divine operating within her. Be a good listener. Who is the seeker???? Isn't it God seeking God???? We are all in this divine play...sometimes willingly, sometimes reluctantly. What matter? We are all enmeshed in maya. We need maya in order to stay in a body. So, let us celebrate maya and not do battle with it. Let maya have its way with us, and soon it will pass through us like a breeze and move on, as we bring our consciousness more in alignment with Truth. God dwells within us as us! I bow to the Divine within each and every one of you! As Swamiji said (and I paraphrase), " Not one single cell can find rest until its reaches the goal! " I trust the process. God is in charge; He is guiding and directing this whole play...and we need to honour and respect the different manifestations of the play as it is enacted in each individual soul. Om Shanti! Jody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 1999 Report Share Posted August 2, 1999 Dear Karen, Wat i can get is shall we bother ourselves with correcting our psyche or not and if yes than to wat extent. Karen wat i have felt is that on spiritual path one has to be very aware of wat one is doing , saying or thinking and correct oneself as soon as one finds something to be corrected. istead of dwelling on thoughts which are a drawback in our psyche we dwell on positive thoughts. Wat i get is that when one is not strong enough in one's phyche to deal with drawbacks in one's phyche in such a situation it's better to concentrate on positive things and n make one's phyche n understanding strong. When one feels one is strong one can go in to dwelling on negative aspects of one's phyche . One should sort of know to detach oneself when one wants to dwell on one's psyche's problem. If one can easily be swayed by the lacks in one's psyche than thei is no point in dwelling on it for it will be nothin but a failure. There is one more thing sometimes the positive aspects are the positive points that can cancel the negative aspects in one's psyche. So just by dwelling on postive aspects one is making oneself strong in mind and understanding and one is also dealing with the negative part through another way for the positive is kind of exact dual of negative aspect. Something like Key and lock. Divine love being a universal solver or universal key if one dwells on it alone it slowly n slowly filters out all the negativity in one's phyche. Yes it's very important that one's pysche be totally pure. This is something wat happens in kundalini awakening . Unless one clears and corrects ones pysche kundalini will give one the hardest and toughest of the times. Something which people state like an ocean of filth. Which one has to cross. I think Raja Yogaa decreases it to much extent for it starts at Anahata Chakraa (Heart, love). Don't know abt Raja Yogaa just this much that one starts from heart chakraa. Yes i am also thinking that one can't leave mind as separate thing in experiencing lord. the mind is fully diverted towards lord it's only then the divinity shines. My be it's mind that gets dissolved in to universe to know Lord. I couldn't make out some of the questions can u kindly rephrase the left over questions ? On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > Hi Everyone, > > Jay, Thank you for such an *honest* and forthright summation of the difficult > questions of spiritual life! Sometimes for me, the most healing and freeing > thing has been to admit, " I wonder! " > > Everyone, I would appreciate your honest comments and insights on my experience > of the weekend. I am open to your corrections and criticisms! I appreciate > having you all as " e-satsang " . > > I was engaged this weekend in discussions with a friend who had been very > disillusioned by the what she perceived as many Vedantists' escapist ideas. In > her mind, many Vedantists' " deny " their emotional and psychological self, and > seek to focus only on the Trancendental, which to my friend seems false and > hypocritical if one has not taken care of the psychological plane. My friend has > a Vedanta and inter-faith background (and is a psychologist). > > Myself, I *do* believe that it is good to offer a healthy psyche to the Divine! > (I mean, we do it for mangoes!) But, I said that, for example, if my bowels are > malfunctioning (nasty example, but I had had a very spicy lunch!!! :-) ) that > I would certainly pay attention to them and take steps to fix the problem -- but > that other than such a case, I really don't want to discuss them all the time!!! > How wearisome that would become! :-) I feel the same way about psychological > issues of what I think of as the " lower " psyche (related to our personality, > thoughts, life experiences, etc.). I do not deny that it is important to keep in > good health, but seemed to have a hard time explaining that while I do not > dishonor it, I prefer not to dwell on it or spend much time analyzing it. I > think I ruffled her feathers. > > Now, I will try to present her feeling, though I am sure I will do it poorly. To > her, all is a manifestation of the Mother. Period. That includes the psyche. The > phrases Sahaja Samadhi versus Nirvikalpa samadhi came up during this discussion, > I think the point being that if I do not see the psyche as God then it is > because I am experiencing separation rather than unity. I am experiencing " level > confusion. " Also the phrases the " immanent " God in an unconscious creation > versus creation that was conscious of its divinity, versus the " transcendent " > God came up in this conversation. To her the psyche is very important and she > sees no separation between it and other experience. So we spent quite a bit of > time discussing my psyche. She believes in being pro-active about the psyche's > health, and that this is very important to spiritual life. But for me, the > " focus " on that aspect was very unbalanced in our visit. Her view is that that > is God as well, so why am I resistant? My view is, " I am not interested in my > personality issues unless they are causing problems " . ) > > To me (and for me -- I'm not trying to generalize and say everyone should feel > this way), all this seems very simple and plain. When the body ills, take care > of it. when the psyche ills take care of it. If it operates on the physical > level, take care of it on that level. If you break you arm, see a doctor. Ditto > for psychological level. If your psyche is ailing, talk with a counselor. See > the body and the psyche as divine. But, for me, I do not want my *focus* to be > there. I think of the story Sri Ramakrishna told -- the servant thinks of the > employer's child as " My Hari " , and takes good care of him, but is inwardly > detached. Now I cannot say that I see the Divine in everything all the time. But > it is truly my practice and desire to do so more and more. But I feel there is > room within that context for some " discrimination " as the objects of focus in > our inner life. But perhaps that is MY immaturity in equal-sightedness. But then > again, I think of Sri Ramakrishna wailing to Mother when he was bought to a very > worldy environment " Oh Mother, why did you bring me here! " > > My visit with my friend left me very drained and frustrated. In what perhaps she > would think of an escapist action, I " retreated " for healing to that Other Place > where it does not matter. Some issues are worth grappling with, and others, > perhaps we sometimes need the courage to say " Who cares?? " :-) > > On the other hand, I very much want to reach out to my friend and try to > understand her point of view. She has had bad experiences with the Vedanta > movement. In general, they did not agree with her and kind of even shunned her > (her description), which I can begin to understand if she was always trying to > (I hate to use this phrase, for it resonates too closely with her idea of > escapism, but it was the first that came to mind: ) drag their minds down to the > psychological level. But she seems to feel that may I somehow can be a healing > friend for her in this area, since I agree with her somewhat but not totally, > and am accepting of her -- I am not trying to " transcendentalize " her. > > So, if anyone can offer me insights into these issues, your experience of > Vedanta, how you balance these things in your own life and practice, I would be > grateful. I am really open and promise not to be critical of your honest > thoughts, as we are all different. I hope to grow in my understanding. If not, I > shall say simply that I am a " small pot " and " my brain is full " :-) OM TAT SAT. > > Namaste to all of you, > > Karen > Westend Ashram > > > > > Vivekananda Centre wrote: > > > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > > > >There is a list which seeks to develop science/spirituality ideas. > > >A few list members requested an explanation of the use of 'dream idea' in > > >Hindu philosophy. This was the reply I gave:- > > > > Thanks for the encouragement to contribute. > > All religions that believe in God have to face some tricky questions: > > > > If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any suffering? > > There can be no lame excuses. > > We hear of standard replies like -- God testing us to make us perfect for > > his Kingdom.... God gave us free will hence we are responsible.... all sorts > > of answers given.........none too satisfying for me. ( My response is a > > perfect God can click his fingers and make everything perfect from the word > > go.....An almighty and all-compassionate God can never tolerate one living > > thing suffering for one instant - let alone for long periods). > > > > Or the other question all religions have to answer: - > > Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create? > > Again similar answers given ...none really that satisfying for me. > > > > Reply from rational Hinduism says, 'I do not know - why all this?' > > > > Still the question does not go away. So attempts have to be made to explain > > this imperfect world and this creation. > > > > One interesting response is the Hindu thought that says, > > " In a dream world you may feel pain -- you may see this and that-- good and > > bad and all sorts of nonsense. It all appears very real and somehow > > connected in the dream and yet when you wake up you say none of it was > > real. " > > > > " So perhaps this world in a way is really a nightmare we are living through > > (there can be some good bits in a nightmare too!). None of this is really > > true. We were never born, never suffered, there was no evil, no good or bad, > > all these ideas of perfection, and imperfection - were never there. > > There was no creation. It is all a dream! " > > > > Let us develop this further by making a critical observation. > > One can argue that this appears to be an escapist answer. We are denying > > the problem. By denying this we are also denying this world and our own > > Selves. May be then there is nothing left to hang on to. All is a dream and > > the fact that we wake up and realise this is a dream is equally a dream > > too!! When we run away from 'all this' as a dream we may have nothing left! > > > > This Hindu philosophy responds in a bold manner by saying:- > > " Yes we have no proof that we can use or communicate in this 'dreamlike > > world' that will show that this is really a dreamlike world and that there > > is something more besides this dream " . In fact even this example of 'the > > world being dreamlike' is also too limited an analogy and cannot be used to > > extreme to explain or illustrate the underlying reality of what this is all > > about. > > (Hinduism explains, " this concepts of dream etc also occurs in this state of > > dream so we cannot take this example too far either as it is too > > limited --it too belongs to this dreamy state!). Yet we have very little > > else to fall back on so some may want to use this limited example. > > When we wake up we feel absolutely sure we are awake and the dream state was > > just that --a dream. So in spirituality too we also 'Wake up' and then we > > can make such claims (not before!) and become prophets who then have the > > authority to guide mankind regarding the true nature of this universe and > > ourselves. > > > > What do these prophets who 'have woken up' say? > > They say the nature of this universe is absolutely divine, superb. > > Our true nature is equally divine and equally superb. > > They say, " Find your true Self (or the true nature of this reality that is > > in front of us as the universe) - there is nothing more thrilling " . > > > > (In fact they say words: superb, divine, thrilling are too bland to really > > convey what they are on about). > > > > So we sit and muse over such stuff. We can look up their lives to see if > > they match upto what they are saying. Have they really tasted something > > that thrilling? We wonder. > > > > jay > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > Congratulations DALMATIANRESCUE. Our latest ONElist of the week. > > To see full story and submit YOUR ONElist story, go to > > /info/ootw_19.html > > > > ------ > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. > Apply online today! /ad/nextcard1 > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Namaste Anurag A wise and beautiful reply indeed. Thanks. Om Shanti Kathi > > Anurag Goel [sMTP:anurag] > Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:44 AM > Ramakrishna > Re: [ramakrishna] Vendanta and the Psyche > > Anurag Goel <anurag > > > Dear Karen, > > Wat i can get is shall we bother ourselves with correcting > our psyche or not and if yes than to wat extent. Karen wat i have felt is > that on spiritual path one has to be very aware of wat one is doing , > saying or thinking and correct oneself as soon as one finds something to > be corrected. > > istead of dwelling on thoughts which are a drawback in our > psyche we dwell on positive thoughts. Wat i get is that when one is not > strong enough in one's phyche to deal with drawbacks in one's phyche in > such a situation it's better to concentrate on positive things and n make > one's phyche n understanding strong. When one feels one is strong one can > go in to dwelling on negative aspects of one's phyche . One should sort of > know to detach oneself when one wants to dwell on one's psyche's problem. > If one can easily be swayed by the lacks in one's psyche than thei is no > point in dwelling on it for it will be nothin but a failure. > > There is one more thing sometimes the positive aspects are the positive > points that can cancel the negative aspects in one's psyche. So just by > dwelling on postive aspects one is making oneself strong in mind and > understanding and one is also dealing with the negative part through > another way for the positive is kind of exact dual of negative aspect. > Something like Key and lock. > > Divine love being a universal solver or universal key if one dwells on it > alone it slowly n slowly filters out all the negativity in one's phyche. > > Yes it's very important that one's pysche be totally pure. This is > something wat happens in kundalini awakening . Unless one clears and > corrects ones pysche kundalini will give one the hardest and toughest of > the times. Something which people state like an ocean of filth. Which one > has to cross. I think Raja Yogaa decreases it to much extent for it starts > at Anahata Chakraa (Heart, love). Don't know abt Raja Yogaa just this much > that one starts from heart chakraa. > > Yes i am also thinking that one can't leave mind as separate thing in > experiencing lord. the mind is fully diverted towards lord it's only > then the divinity shines. My be it's mind that gets dissolved in to > universe to know Lord. > > > I couldn't make out some of the questions can u kindly rephrase the left > over questions ? > > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > > > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Jay, Thank you for such an *honest* and forthright summation of the > difficult > > questions of spiritual life! Sometimes for me, the most healing and > freeing > > thing has been to admit, " I wonder! " > > > > Everyone, I would appreciate your honest comments and insights on my > experience > > of the weekend. I am open to your corrections and criticisms! I > appreciate > > having you all as " e-satsang " . > > > > I was engaged this weekend in discussions with a friend who had been > very > > disillusioned by the what she perceived as many Vedantists' escapist > ideas. In > > her mind, many Vedantists' " deny " their emotional and psychological > self, and > > seek to focus only on the Trancendental, which to my friend seems false > and > > hypocritical if one has not taken care of the psychological plane. My > friend has > > a Vedanta and inter-faith background (and is a psychologist). > > > > Myself, I *do* believe that it is good to offer a healthy psyche to the > Divine! > > (I mean, we do it for mangoes!) But, I said that, for example, if my > bowels are > > malfunctioning (nasty example, but I had had a very spicy lunch!!! :-) > ) that > > I would certainly pay attention to them and take steps to fix the > problem -- but > > that other than such a case, I really don't want to discuss them all the > time!!! > > How wearisome that would become! :-) I feel the same way about > psychological > > issues of what I think of as the " lower " psyche (related to our > personality, > > thoughts, life experiences, etc.). I do not deny that it is important to > keep in > > good health, but seemed to have a hard time explaining that while I do > not > > dishonor it, I prefer not to dwell on it or spend much time analyzing > it. I > > think I ruffled her feathers. > > > > Now, I will try to present her feeling, though I am sure I will do it > poorly. To > > her, all is a manifestation of the Mother. Period. That includes the > psyche. The > > phrases Sahaja Samadhi versus Nirvikalpa samadhi came up during this > discussion, > > I think the point being that if I do not see the psyche as God then it > is > > because I am experiencing separation rather than unity. I am > experiencing " level > > confusion. " Also the phrases the " immanent " God in an unconscious > creation > > versus creation that was conscious of its divinity, versus the > " transcendent " > > God came up in this conversation. To her the psyche is very important > and she > > sees no separation between it and other experience. So we spent quite a > bit of > > time discussing my psyche. She believes in being pro-active about the > psyche's > > health, and that this is very important to spiritual life. But for me, > the > > " focus " on that aspect was very unbalanced in our visit. Her view is > that that > > is God as well, so why am I resistant? My view is, " I am not interested > in my > > personality issues unless they are causing problems " . ) > > > > To me (and for me -- I'm not trying to generalize and say everyone > should feel > > this way), all this seems very simple and plain. When the body ills, > take care > > of it. when the psyche ills take care of it. If it operates on the > physical > > level, take care of it on that level. If you break you arm, see a > doctor. Ditto > > for psychological level. If your psyche is ailing, talk with a > counselor. See > > the body and the psyche as divine. But, for me, I do not want my *focus* > to be > > there. I think of the story Sri Ramakrishna told -- the servant thinks > of the > > employer's child as " My Hari " , and takes good care of him, but is > inwardly > > detached. Now I cannot say that I see the Divine in everything all the > time. But > > it is truly my practice and desire to do so more and more. But I feel > there is > > room within that context for some " discrimination " as the objects of > focus in > > our inner life. But perhaps that is MY immaturity in equal-sightedness. > But then > > again, I think of Sri Ramakrishna wailing to Mother when he was bought > to a very > > worldy environment " Oh Mother, why did you bring me here! " > > > > My visit with my friend left me very drained and frustrated. In what > perhaps she > > would think of an escapist action, I " retreated " for healing to that > Other Place > > where it does not matter. Some issues are worth grappling with, and > others, > > perhaps we sometimes need the courage to say " Who cares?? " :-) > > > > On the other hand, I very much want to reach out to my friend and try to > > understand her point of view. She has had bad experiences with the > Vedanta > > movement. In general, they did not agree with her and kind of even > shunned her > > (her description), which I can begin to understand if she was always > trying to > > (I hate to use this phrase, for it resonates too closely with her idea > of > > escapism, but it was the first that came to mind: ) drag their minds > down to the > > psychological level. But she seems to feel that may I somehow can be a > healing > > friend for her in this area, since I agree with her somewhat but not > totally, > > and am accepting of her -- I am not trying to " transcendentalize " her. > > > > So, if anyone can offer me insights into these issues, your experience > of > > Vedanta, how you balance these things in your own life and practice, I > would be > > grateful. I am really open and promise not to be critical of your > honest > > thoughts, as we are all different. I hope to grow in my understanding. > If not, I > > shall say simply that I am a " small pot " and " my brain is full " :-) OM > TAT SAT. > > > > Namaste to all of you, > > > > Karen > > Westend Ashram > > > > > > > > > > Vivekananda Centre wrote: > > > > > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > > > > > >There is a list which seeks to develop science/spirituality ideas. > > > >A few list members requested an explanation of the use of 'dream > idea' in > > > >Hindu philosophy. This was the reply I gave:- > > > > > > Thanks for the encouragement to contribute. > > > All religions that believe in God have to face some tricky questions: > > > > > > If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any > suffering? > > > There can be no lame excuses. > > > We hear of standard replies like -- God testing us to make us perfect > for > > > his Kingdom.... God gave us free will hence we are responsible.... all > sorts > > > of answers given.........none too satisfying for me. ( My response is > a > > > perfect God can click his fingers and make everything perfect from the > word > > > go.....An almighty and all-compassionate God can never tolerate one > living > > > thing suffering for one instant - let alone for long periods). > > > > > > Or the other question all religions have to answer: - > > > Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create? > > > Again similar answers given ...none really that satisfying for me. > > > > > > Reply from rational Hinduism says, 'I do not know - why all this?' > > > > > > Still the question does not go away. So attempts have to be made to > explain > > > this imperfect world and this creation. > > > > > > One interesting response is the Hindu thought that says, > > > " In a dream world you may feel pain -- you may see this and that-- > good and > > > bad and all sorts of nonsense. It all appears very real and somehow > > > connected in the dream and yet when you wake up you say none of it was > > > real. " > > > > > > " So perhaps this world in a way is really a nightmare we are living > through > > > (there can be some good bits in a nightmare too!). None of this is > really > > > true. We were never born, never suffered, there was no evil, no good > or bad, > > > all these ideas of perfection, and imperfection - were never there. > > > There was no creation. It is all a dream! " > > > > > > Let us develop this further by making a critical observation. > > > One can argue that this appears to be an escapist answer. We are > denying > > > the problem. By denying this we are also denying this world and our > own > > > Selves. May be then there is nothing left to hang on to. All is a > dream and > > > the fact that we wake up and realise this is a dream is equally a > dream > > > too!! When we run away from 'all this' as a dream we may have nothing > left! > > > > > > This Hindu philosophy responds in a bold manner by saying:- > > > " Yes we have no proof that we can use or communicate in this > 'dreamlike > > > world' that will show that this is really a dreamlike world and that > there > > > is something more besides this dream " . In fact even this example of > 'the > > > world being dreamlike' is also too limited an analogy and cannot be > used to > > > extreme to explain or illustrate the underlying reality of what this > is all > > > about. > > > (Hinduism explains, " this concepts of dream etc also occurs in this > state of > > > dream so we cannot take this example too far either as it is too > > > limited --it too belongs to this dreamy state!). Yet we have very > little > > > else to fall back on so some may want to use this limited example. > > > When we wake up we feel absolutely sure we are awake and the dream > state was > > > just that --a dream. So in spirituality too we also 'Wake up' and then > we > > > can make such claims (not before!) and become prophets who then have > the > > > authority to guide mankind regarding the true nature of this universe > and > > > ourselves. > > > > > > What do these prophets who 'have woken up' say? > > > They say the nature of this universe is absolutely divine, superb. > > > Our true nature is equally divine and equally superb. > > > They say, " Find your true Self (or the true nature of this reality > that is > > > in front of us as the universe) - there is nothing more thrilling " . > > > > > > (In fact they say words: superb, divine, thrilling are too bland to > really > > > convey what they are on about). > > > > > > So we sit and muse over such stuff. We can look up their lives to see > if > > > they match upto what they are saying. Have they really tasted > something > > > that thrilling? We wonder. > > > > > > jay > > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor > ---------------------------- > > > > > > Congratulations DALMATIANRESCUE. Our latest ONElist of the week. > > > To see full story and submit YOUR ONElist story, go to > > > /info/ootw_19.html > > > > > > > ------ > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, > > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. > > Apply online today! /ad/nextcard1 > > > > ------ > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > How do you enter ONElist's WEEKLY DRAWING for $100? > By joining the FRIENDS & FAMILY program. For details, go to > /info/onereachsplash3.html > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 1999 Report Share Posted August 3, 1999 Namaste Kathi Thanks! On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, K Kathirasan ADM NCS wrote: > K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan > > Namaste Anurag > > A wise and beautiful reply indeed. Thanks. > > Om Shanti > Kathi > > > > > Anurag Goel [sMTP:anurag] > > Tuesday, August 03, 1999 6:44 AM > > Ramakrishna > > Re: [ramakrishna] Vendanta and the Psyche > > > > Anurag Goel <anurag > > > > > > Dear Karen, > > > > Wat i can get is shall we bother ourselves with correcting > > our psyche or not and if yes than to wat extent. Karen wat i have felt is > > that on spiritual path one has to be very aware of wat one is doing , > > saying or thinking and correct oneself as soon as one finds something to > > be corrected. > > > > istead of dwelling on thoughts which are a drawback in our > > psyche we dwell on positive thoughts. Wat i get is that when one is not > > strong enough in one's phyche to deal with drawbacks in one's phyche in > > such a situation it's better to concentrate on positive things and n make > > one's phyche n understanding strong. When one feels one is strong one can > > go in to dwelling on negative aspects of one's phyche . One should sort of > > know to detach oneself when one wants to dwell on one's psyche's problem. > > If one can easily be swayed by the lacks in one's psyche than thei is no > > point in dwelling on it for it will be nothin but a failure. > > > > There is one more thing sometimes the positive aspects are the positive > > points that can cancel the negative aspects in one's psyche. So just by > > dwelling on postive aspects one is making oneself strong in mind and > > understanding and one is also dealing with the negative part through > > another way for the positive is kind of exact dual of negative aspect. > > Something like Key and lock. > > > > Divine love being a universal solver or universal key if one dwells on it > > alone it slowly n slowly filters out all the negativity in one's phyche. > > > > Yes it's very important that one's pysche be totally pure. This is > > something wat happens in kundalini awakening . Unless one clears and > > corrects ones pysche kundalini will give one the hardest and toughest of > > the times. Something which people state like an ocean of filth. Which one > > has to cross. I think Raja Yogaa decreases it to much extent for it starts > > at Anahata Chakraa (Heart, love). Don't know abt Raja Yogaa just this much > > that one starts from heart chakraa. > > > > Yes i am also thinking that one can't leave mind as separate thing in > > experiencing lord. the mind is fully diverted towards lord it's only > > then the divinity shines. My be it's mind that gets dissolved in to > > universe to know Lord. > > > > > > I couldn't make out some of the questions can u kindly rephrase the left > > over questions ? > > > > > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > > > > > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > Jay, Thank you for such an *honest* and forthright summation of the > > difficult > > > questions of spiritual life! Sometimes for me, the most healing and > > freeing > > > thing has been to admit, " I wonder! " > > > > > > Everyone, I would appreciate your honest comments and insights on my > > experience > > > of the weekend. I am open to your corrections and criticisms! I > > appreciate > > > having you all as " e-satsang " . > > > > > > I was engaged this weekend in discussions with a friend who had been > > very > > > disillusioned by the what she perceived as many Vedantists' escapist > > ideas. In > > > her mind, many Vedantists' " deny " their emotional and psychological > > self, and > > > seek to focus only on the Trancendental, which to my friend seems false > > and > > > hypocritical if one has not taken care of the psychological plane. My > > friend has > > > a Vedanta and inter-faith background (and is a psychologist). > > > > > > Myself, I *do* believe that it is good to offer a healthy psyche to the > > Divine! > > > (I mean, we do it for mangoes!) But, I said that, for example, if my > > bowels are > > > malfunctioning (nasty example, but I had had a very spicy lunch!!! :-) > > ) that > > > I would certainly pay attention to them and take steps to fix the > > problem -- but > > > that other than such a case, I really don't want to discuss them all the > > time!!! > > > How wearisome that would become! :-) I feel the same way about > > psychological > > > issues of what I think of as the " lower " psyche (related to our > > personality, > > > thoughts, life experiences, etc.). I do not deny that it is important to > > keep in > > > good health, but seemed to have a hard time explaining that while I do > > not > > > dishonor it, I prefer not to dwell on it or spend much time analyzing > > it. I > > > think I ruffled her feathers. > > > > > > Now, I will try to present her feeling, though I am sure I will do it > > poorly. To > > > her, all is a manifestation of the Mother. Period. That includes the > > psyche. The > > > phrases Sahaja Samadhi versus Nirvikalpa samadhi came up during this > > discussion, > > > I think the point being that if I do not see the psyche as God then it > > is > > > because I am experiencing separation rather than unity. I am > > experiencing " level > > > confusion. " Also the phrases the " immanent " God in an unconscious > > creation > > > versus creation that was conscious of its divinity, versus the > > " transcendent " > > > God came up in this conversation. To her the psyche is very important > > and she > > > sees no separation between it and other experience. So we spent quite a > > bit of > > > time discussing my psyche. She believes in being pro-active about the > > psyche's > > > health, and that this is very important to spiritual life. But for me, > > the > > > " focus " on that aspect was very unbalanced in our visit. Her view is > > that that > > > is God as well, so why am I resistant? My view is, " I am not interested > > in my > > > personality issues unless they are causing problems " . ) > > > > > > To me (and for me -- I'm not trying to generalize and say everyone > > should feel > > > this way), all this seems very simple and plain. When the body ills, > > take care > > > of it. when the psyche ills take care of it. If it operates on the > > physical > > > level, take care of it on that level. If you break you arm, see a > > doctor. Ditto > > > for psychological level. If your psyche is ailing, talk with a > > counselor. See > > > the body and the psyche as divine. But, for me, I do not want my *focus* > > to be > > > there. I think of the story Sri Ramakrishna told -- the servant thinks > > of the > > > employer's child as " My Hari " , and takes good care of him, but is > > inwardly > > > detached. Now I cannot say that I see the Divine in everything all the > > time. But > > > it is truly my practice and desire to do so more and more. But I feel > > there is > > > room within that context for some " discrimination " as the objects of > > focus in > > > our inner life. But perhaps that is MY immaturity in equal-sightedness. > > But then > > > again, I think of Sri Ramakrishna wailing to Mother when he was bought > > to a very > > > worldy environment " Oh Mother, why did you bring me here! " > > > > > > My visit with my friend left me very drained and frustrated. In what > > perhaps she > > > would think of an escapist action, I " retreated " for healing to that > > Other Place > > > where it does not matter. Some issues are worth grappling with, and > > others, > > > perhaps we sometimes need the courage to say " Who cares?? " :-) > > > > > > On the other hand, I very much want to reach out to my friend and try to > > > understand her point of view. She has had bad experiences with the > > Vedanta > > > movement. In general, they did not agree with her and kind of even > > shunned her > > > (her description), which I can begin to understand if she was always > > trying to > > > (I hate to use this phrase, for it resonates too closely with her idea > > of > > > escapism, but it was the first that came to mind: ) drag their minds > > down to the > > > psychological level. But she seems to feel that may I somehow can be a > > healing > > > friend for her in this area, since I agree with her somewhat but not > > totally, > > > and am accepting of her -- I am not trying to " transcendentalize " her. > > > > > > So, if anyone can offer me insights into these issues, your experience > > of > > > Vedanta, how you balance these things in your own life and practice, I > > would be > > > grateful. I am really open and promise not to be critical of your > > honest > > > thoughts, as we are all different. I hope to grow in my understanding. > > If not, I > > > shall say simply that I am a " small pot " and " my brain is full " :-) OM > > TAT SAT. > > > > > > Namaste to all of you, > > > > > > Karen > > > Westend Ashram > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vivekananda Centre wrote: > > > > > > > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > > > > > > > >There is a list which seeks to develop science/spirituality ideas. > > > > >A few list members requested an explanation of the use of 'dream > > idea' in > > > > >Hindu philosophy. This was the reply I gave:- > > > > > > > > Thanks for the encouragement to contribute. > > > > All religions that believe in God have to face some tricky questions: > > > > > > > > If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any > > suffering? > > > > There can be no lame excuses. > > > > We hear of standard replies like -- God testing us to make us perfect > > for > > > > his Kingdom.... God gave us free will hence we are responsible.... all > > sorts > > > > of answers given.........none too satisfying for me. ( My response is > > a > > > > perfect God can click his fingers and make everything perfect from the > > word > > > > go.....An almighty and all-compassionate God can never tolerate one > > living > > > > thing suffering for one instant - let alone for long periods). > > > > > > > > Or the other question all religions have to answer: - > > > > Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create? > > > > Again similar answers given ...none really that satisfying for me. > > > > > > > > Reply from rational Hinduism says, 'I do not know - why all this?' > > > > > > > > Still the question does not go away. So attempts have to be made to > > explain > > > > this imperfect world and this creation. > > > > > > > > One interesting response is the Hindu thought that says, > > > > " In a dream world you may feel pain -- you may see this and that-- > > good and > > > > bad and all sorts of nonsense. It all appears very real and somehow > > > > connected in the dream and yet when you wake up you say none of it was > > > > real. " > > > > > > > > " So perhaps this world in a way is really a nightmare we are living > > through > > > > (there can be some good bits in a nightmare too!). None of this is > > really > > > > true. We were never born, never suffered, there was no evil, no good > > or bad, > > > > all these ideas of perfection, and imperfection - were never there. > > > > There was no creation. It is all a dream! " > > > > > > > > Let us develop this further by making a critical observation. > > > > One can argue that this appears to be an escapist answer. We are > > denying > > > > the problem. By denying this we are also denying this world and our > > own > > > > Selves. May be then there is nothing left to hang on to. All is a > > dream and > > > > the fact that we wake up and realise this is a dream is equally a > > dream > > > > too!! When we run away from 'all this' as a dream we may have nothing > > left! > > > > > > > > This Hindu philosophy responds in a bold manner by saying:- > > > > " Yes we have no proof that we can use or communicate in this > > 'dreamlike > > > > world' that will show that this is really a dreamlike world and that > > there > > > > is something more besides this dream " . In fact even this example of > > 'the > > > > world being dreamlike' is also too limited an analogy and cannot be > > used to > > > > extreme to explain or illustrate the underlying reality of what this > > is all > > > > about. > > > > (Hinduism explains, " this concepts of dream etc also occurs in this > > state of > > > > dream so we cannot take this example too far either as it is too > > > > limited --it too belongs to this dreamy state!). Yet we have very > > little > > > > else to fall back on so some may want to use this limited example. > > > > When we wake up we feel absolutely sure we are awake and the dream > > state was > > > > just that --a dream. So in spirituality too we also 'Wake up' and then > > we > > > > can make such claims (not before!) and become prophets who then have > > the > > > > authority to guide mankind regarding the true nature of this universe > > and > > > > ourselves. > > > > > > > > What do these prophets who 'have woken up' say? > > > > They say the nature of this universe is absolutely divine, superb. > > > > Our true nature is equally divine and equally superb. > > > > They say, " Find your true Self (or the true nature of this reality > > that is > > > > in front of us as the universe) - there is nothing more thrilling " . > > > > > > > > (In fact they say words: superb, divine, thrilling are too bland to > > really > > > > convey what they are on about). > > > > > > > > So we sit and muse over such stuff. We can look up their lives to see > > if > > > > they match upto what they are saying. Have they really tasted > > something > > > > that thrilling? We wonder. > > > > > > > > jay > > > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor > > ---------------------------- > > > > > > > > Congratulations DALMATIANRESCUE. Our latest ONElist of the week. > > > > To see full story and submit YOUR ONElist story, go to > > > > /info/ootw_19.html > > > > > > > > > > ------ > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > > > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > > > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, > > > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. > > > Apply online today! /ad/nextcard1 > > > > > > ------ > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > > > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > How do you enter ONElist's WEEKLY DRAWING for $100? > > By joining the FRIENDS & FAMILY program. For details, go to > > /info/onereachsplash3.html > > > > ------ > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > How do you enter ONElist’s WEEKLY DRAWING for $100? > By joining the FRIENDS & FAMILY program. For details, go to > /info/onereachsplash3.html > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Dear Jody, Thank you for your lovely insights. Yes, I my friend voiced the idea to me - that she is trying to heal from some bad experiences. For the most part, I don't argue with her, but try to listen. But I simply don't feel the need to hash out my " issues " , and this itself seems to disturb her, as if I am criticizing her (not the case!). I hope she can feel otherwise in time. In my experience, one might need to focus sometimes on the psyche (or the body) if it is not well, but one can get wrapped up in it to the detriment of spiritual life. That is what I am trying to balance. And this choice I do defend if needed like a mother lion her cub! This inner silence, until established unshakeably, is so precious and precarious! The inner guide also shows us what is needed, I feel. But I agree, it is all the teacher, we learn by this tumbling around like stones in a tumbler and come out smoother for it! this has been an occasion of learning for me. Thank you for your letter. Namaste, Karen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Dear Anurag, thank you for your thoughts, especially the ones about dwelling on the positive until the psyche is strong enough to deal with the negative -- and also when to detach. And most especially your statement: " Divine love being a universal solver or universal key if one dwells on it alone it slowly n slowly filters out all the negativity in one's phyche. " I believe that 150%! I'm not sure what other questions you wanted paraphrased, but you have already given me plenty of food for thought (good ideas) thank you Anurag! -- Karen Anurag Goel wrote: > Anurag Goel <anurag > > Dear Karen, > > Wat i can get is shall we bother ourselves with correcting > our psyche or not and if yes than to wat extent. Karen wat i have felt is > that on spiritual path one has to be very aware of wat one is doing , > saying or thinking and correct oneself as soon as one finds something to > be corrected. > > istead of dwelling on thoughts which are a drawback in our > psyche we dwell on positive thoughts. Wat i get is that when one is not > strong enough in one's phyche to deal with drawbacks in one's phyche in > such a situation it's better to concentrate on positive things and n make > one's phyche n understanding strong. When one feels one is strong one can > go in to dwelling on negative aspects of one's phyche . One should sort of > know to detach oneself when one wants to dwell on one's psyche's problem. > If one can easily be swayed by the lacks in one's psyche than thei is no > point in dwelling on it for it will be nothin but a failure. > > There is one more thing sometimes the positive aspects are the positive > points that can cancel the negative aspects in one's psyche. So just by > dwelling on postive aspects one is making oneself strong in mind and > understanding and one is also dealing with the negative part through > another way for the positive is kind of exact dual of negative aspect. > Something like Key and lock. > > Divine love being a universal solver or universal key if one dwells on it > alone it slowly n slowly filters out all the negativity in one's phyche. > > Yes it's very important that one's pysche be totally pure. This is > something wat happens in kundalini awakening . Unless one clears and > corrects ones pysche kundalini will give one the hardest and toughest of > the times. Something which people state like an ocean of filth. Which one > has to cross. I think Raja Yogaa decreases it to much extent for it starts > at Anahata Chakraa (Heart, love). Don't know abt Raja Yogaa just this much > that one starts from heart chakraa. > > Yes i am also thinking that one can't leave mind as separate thing in > experiencing lord. the mind is fully diverted towards lord it's only > then the divinity shines. My be it's mind that gets dissolved in to > universe to know Lord. > > I couldn't make out some of the questions can u kindly rephrase the left > over questions ? > > On Mon, 2 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > > > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > > > Hi Everyone, > > > > Jay, Thank you for such an *honest* and forthright summation of the difficult > > questions of spiritual life! Sometimes for me, the most healing and freeing > > thing has been to admit, " I wonder! " > > > > Everyone, I would appreciate your honest comments and insights on my experience > > of the weekend. I am open to your corrections and criticisms! I appreciate > > having you all as " e-satsang " . > > > > I was engaged this weekend in discussions with a friend who had been very > > disillusioned by the what she perceived as many Vedantists' escapist ideas. In > > her mind, many Vedantists' " deny " their emotional and psychological self, and > > seek to focus only on the Trancendental, which to my friend seems false and > > hypocritical if one has not taken care of the psychological plane. My friend has > > a Vedanta and inter-faith background (and is a psychologist). > > > > Myself, I *do* believe that it is good to offer a healthy psyche to the Divine! > > (I mean, we do it for mangoes!) But, I said that, for example, if my bowels are > > malfunctioning (nasty example, but I had had a very spicy lunch!!! :-) ) that > > I would certainly pay attention to them and take steps to fix the problem -- but > > that other than such a case, I really don't want to discuss them all the time!!! > > How wearisome that would become! :-) I feel the same way about psychological > > issues of what I think of as the " lower " psyche (related to our personality, > > thoughts, life experiences, etc.). I do not deny that it is important to keep in > > good health, but seemed to have a hard time explaining that while I do not > > dishonor it, I prefer not to dwell on it or spend much time analyzing it. I > > think I ruffled her feathers. > > > > Now, I will try to present her feeling, though I am sure I will do it poorly. To > > her, all is a manifestation of the Mother. Period. That includes the psyche. The > > phrases Sahaja Samadhi versus Nirvikalpa samadhi came up during this discussion, > > I think the point being that if I do not see the psyche as God then it is > > because I am experiencing separation rather than unity. I am experiencing " level > > confusion. " Also the phrases the " immanent " God in an unconscious creation > > versus creation that was conscious of its divinity, versus the " transcendent " > > God came up in this conversation. To her the psyche is very important and she > > sees no separation between it and other experience. So we spent quite a bit of > > time discussing my psyche. She believes in being pro-active about the psyche's > > health, and that this is very important to spiritual life. But for me, the > > " focus " on that aspect was very unbalanced in our visit. Her view is that that > > is God as well, so why am I resistant? My view is, " I am not interested in my > > personality issues unless they are causing problems " . ) > > > > To me (and for me -- I'm not trying to generalize and say everyone should feel > > this way), all this seems very simple and plain. When the body ills, take care > > of it. when the psyche ills take care of it. If it operates on the physical > > level, take care of it on that level. If you break you arm, see a doctor. Ditto > > for psychological level. If your psyche is ailing, talk with a counselor. See > > the body and the psyche as divine. But, for me, I do not want my *focus* to be > > there. I think of the story Sri Ramakrishna told -- the servant thinks of the > > employer's child as " My Hari " , and takes good care of him, but is inwardly > > detached. Now I cannot say that I see the Divine in everything all the time. But > > it is truly my practice and desire to do so more and more. But I feel there is > > room within that context for some " discrimination " as the objects of focus in > > our inner life. But perhaps that is MY immaturity in equal-sightedness. But then > > again, I think of Sri Ramakrishna wailing to Mother when he was bought to a very > > worldy environment " Oh Mother, why did you bring me here! " > > > > My visit with my friend left me very drained and frustrated. In what perhaps she > > would think of an escapist action, I " retreated " for healing to that Other Place > > where it does not matter. Some issues are worth grappling with, and others, > > perhaps we sometimes need the courage to say " Who cares?? " :-) > > > > On the other hand, I very much want to reach out to my friend and try to > > understand her point of view. She has had bad experiences with the Vedanta > > movement. In general, they did not agree with her and kind of even shunned her > > (her description), which I can begin to understand if she was always trying to > > (I hate to use this phrase, for it resonates too closely with her idea of > > escapism, but it was the first that came to mind: ) drag their minds down to the > > psychological level. But she seems to feel that may I somehow can be a healing > > friend for her in this area, since I agree with her somewhat but not totally, > > and am accepting of her -- I am not trying to " transcendentalize " her. > > > > So, if anyone can offer me insights into these issues, your experience of > > Vedanta, how you balance these things in your own life and practice, I would be > > grateful. I am really open and promise not to be critical of your honest > > thoughts, as we are all different. I hope to grow in my understanding. If not, I > > shall say simply that I am a " small pot " and " my brain is full " :-) OM TAT SAT. > > > > Namaste to all of you, > > > > Karen > > Westend Ashram > > > > > > > > > > Vivekananda Centre wrote: > > > > > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > > > > > > >There is a list which seeks to develop science/spirituality ideas. > > > >A few list members requested an explanation of the use of 'dream idea' in > > > >Hindu philosophy. This was the reply I gave:- > > > > > > Thanks for the encouragement to contribute. > > > All religions that believe in God have to face some tricky questions: > > > > > > If the creator is perfect: Why then this imperfect world? Why any suffering? > > > There can be no lame excuses. > > > We hear of standard replies like -- God testing us to make us perfect for > > > his Kingdom.... God gave us free will hence we are responsible.... all sorts > > > of answers given.........none too satisfying for me. ( My response is a > > > perfect God can click his fingers and make everything perfect from the word > > > go.....An almighty and all-compassionate God can never tolerate one living > > > thing suffering for one instant - let alone for long periods). > > > > > > Or the other question all religions have to answer: - > > > Why this creation? Was God imperfect that he had to create? > > > Again similar answers given ...none really that satisfying for me. > > > > > > Reply from rational Hinduism says, 'I do not know - why all this?' > > > > > > Still the question does not go away. So attempts have to be made to explain > > > this imperfect world and this creation. > > > > > > One interesting response is the Hindu thought that says, > > > " In a dream world you may feel pain -- you may see this and that-- good and > > > bad and all sorts of nonsense. It all appears very real and somehow > > > connected in the dream and yet when you wake up you say none of it was > > > real. " > > > > > > " So perhaps this world in a way is really a nightmare we are living through > > > (there can be some good bits in a nightmare too!). None of this is really > > > true. We were never born, never suffered, there was no evil, no good or bad, > > > all these ideas of perfection, and imperfection - were never there. > > > There was no creation. It is all a dream! " > > > > > > Let us develop this further by making a critical observation. > > > One can argue that this appears to be an escapist answer. We are denying > > > the problem. By denying this we are also denying this world and our own > > > Selves. May be then there is nothing left to hang on to. All is a dream and > > > the fact that we wake up and realise this is a dream is equally a dream > > > too!! When we run away from 'all this' as a dream we may have nothing left! > > > > > > This Hindu philosophy responds in a bold manner by saying:- > > > " Yes we have no proof that we can use or communicate in this 'dreamlike > > > world' that will show that this is really a dreamlike world and that there > > > is something more besides this dream " . In fact even this example of 'the > > > world being dreamlike' is also too limited an analogy and cannot be used to > > > extreme to explain or illustrate the underlying reality of what this is all > > > about. > > > (Hinduism explains, " this concepts of dream etc also occurs in this state of > > > dream so we cannot take this example too far either as it is too > > > limited --it too belongs to this dreamy state!). Yet we have very little > > > else to fall back on so some may want to use this limited example. > > > When we wake up we feel absolutely sure we are awake and the dream state was > > > just that --a dream. So in spirituality too we also 'Wake up' and then we > > > can make such claims (not before!) and become prophets who then have the > > > authority to guide mankind regarding the true nature of this universe and > > > ourselves. > > > > > > What do these prophets who 'have woken up' say? > > > They say the nature of this universe is absolutely divine, superb. > > > Our true nature is equally divine and equally superb. > > > They say, " Find your true Self (or the true nature of this reality that is > > > in front of us as the universe) - there is nothing more thrilling " . > > > > > > (In fact they say words: superb, divine, thrilling are too bland to really > > > convey what they are on about). > > > > > > So we sit and muse over such stuff. We can look up their lives to see if > > > they match upto what they are saying. Have they really tasted something > > > that thrilling? We wonder. > > > > > > jay > > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > > > Congratulations DALMATIANRESCUE. Our latest ONElist of the week. > > > To see full story and submit YOUR ONElist story, go to > > > /info/ootw_19.html > > > > > > ------ > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > > Vivekananda Centre London > > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > GET WHAT YOU DESERVE! A NextCard Platinum VISA: DOUBLE Rewards points, > > NO annual fee & rates as low as 9.9 percent FIXED APR. > > Apply online today! /ad/nextcard1 > > > > ------ > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > How do you enter ONElist’s WEEKLY DRAWING for $100? > By joining the FRIENDS & FAMILY program. For details, go to > /info/onereachsplash3.html > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 Dear Karen, thanks! I just remembered one incident. I wanted to read the dohaas (verses ) by Kabir. Than one day a friend of mine approached me to explain them to him. I wanted to read these n he was asking me to explain them to him. The situation is just perfect. Doesn't it sound interesting who is helping whom ? I enjoyed reading his dohaas (verses) . After reading n understanding them i realised how much kabir loved his Pujya Gurudev. They were just filled with all devotion n love. On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > Dear Anurag, > thank you for your thoughts, especially the ones about dwelling on the positive > until the psyche is strong enough to deal with the negative -- and also when to > detach. > > And most especially your statement: > " Divine love being a universal solver or universal key if one dwells on it > alone it slowly n slowly filters out all the negativity in one's phyche. " > > I believe that 150%! > > I'm not sure what other questions you wanted paraphrased, but you have already > given me plenty of food for thought (good ideas) > > thank you Anurag! > > -- Karen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 4, 1999 Report Share Posted August 4, 1999 May be it may also be helpful " To forgive is divine " and the words of Yudhistra on Kshama ( Forgiveness ) and the life of Jesus. Kshama is dharma hai , kshama is Mokshaa hai , kshamaa hi saya hai Kshamaa hi yagya hai To forgive is religion , forgiveness is liberation , forgiveness is truth Forgiveness is spiritual practices (Yagya) I doubt if i have narrated of words of Yudhistraa a bit right. Consider two systems . One is sending disturbances to other buit other absorbs them and sends out signals of love and harmony . This make the absorbing system all stable and in turn will improve the stability of other system too. But if both start sending disturbances the result will utter unstability. On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > Dear Jody, > > Thank you for your lovely insights. > Yes, I my friend voiced the idea to me - > that she is trying to heal from some bad experiences. > > For the most part, I don't argue with her, but try to listen. > But I simply don't feel the need to hash out my " issues " , > and this itself seems to disturb her, as if I am criticizing her > (not the case!). I hope she can feel otherwise in time. > > In my experience, one might need to focus sometimes > on the psyche (or the body) if it is not well, but one > can get wrapped up in it to the detriment of spiritual > life. That is what I am trying to balance. And this choice I > do defend if needed like a mother lion her cub! > This inner silence, until established unshakeably, > is so precious and precarious! The inner guide also > shows us what is needed, I feel. > > But I agree, it is all the teacher, we learn by this > tumbling around like stones in a tumbler and > come out smoother for it! this has been an occasion > of learning for me. > > Thank you for your letter. > > Namaste, > > Karen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 1999 Report Share Posted August 5, 1999 Anurag, I like your analogy of two systems. It seems their is a third possibility, system-wise, which is that one system remains unmoved. I have noticed this phenomenon with people in a deep spot (eg, during deep meditation) and others whose minds are very active, feel disturbed. Perhaps they find the unmoving-ness " hard " somehow, because the motion of their mind keeps " hitting " the rock of un-movingness. Just a thought. The situation with my friend, I think, calls for softness and absorption of the pain on the outside, and a bit of the solidity of the rock on the inside. How much I can learn from this! My friend has been working hard, by her own account, on forgiving others as part of working through her bad experience. I also have done some of this discipline -- forgiving, or apologizing! I hope I can maintain my inner balance and be there for her. I think you also said that all is the Teacher. I feel the same, and think that everything can teach us! Thank you again for such nice thoughts! Karen Anurag Goel wrote: > Anurag Goel <anurag > > May be it may also be helpful > > " To forgive is divine " > > and the words of Yudhistra on Kshama ( Forgiveness ) and the life of > Jesus. > > Kshama is dharma hai , kshama is Mokshaa hai , kshamaa hi saya hai > Kshamaa hi yagya hai > > To forgive is religion , forgiveness is liberation , forgiveness is truth > Forgiveness is spiritual practices (Yagya) > > I doubt if i have narrated of words of Yudhistraa a bit right. > > Consider two systems . One is sending disturbances to other buit other > absorbs them and sends out signals of love and harmony . This make the > absorbing system all stable and in turn will improve the stability of > other system too. But if both start sending disturbances the result will > utter unstability. > > On Tue, 3 Aug 1999, Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs wrote: > > > Westend Ashram at Colorado Springs <urbanashram > > > > Dear Jody, > > > > Thank you for your lovely insights. > > Yes, I my friend voiced the idea to me - > > that she is trying to heal from some bad experiences. > > > > For the most part, I don't argue with her, but try to listen. > > But I simply don't feel the need to hash out my " issues " , > > and this itself seems to disturb her, as if I am criticizing her > > (not the case!). I hope she can feel otherwise in time. > > > > In my experience, one might need to focus sometimes > > on the psyche (or the body) if it is not well, but one > > can get wrapped up in it to the detriment of spiritual > > life. That is what I am trying to balance. And this choice I > > do defend if needed like a mother lion her cub! > > This inner silence, until established unshakeably, > > is so precious and precarious! The inner guide also > > shows us what is needed, I feel. > > > > But I agree, it is all the teacher, we learn by this > > tumbling around like stones in a tumbler and > > come out smoother for it! this has been an occasion > > of learning for me. > > > > Thank you for your letter. > > > > Namaste, > > > > Karen > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > How do you enter ONElist’s WEEKLY DRAWING for $100? > By joining the FRIENDS & FAMILY program. For details, go to > /info/onereachsplash3.html > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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