Guest guest Posted August 26, 1999 Report Share Posted August 26, 1999 > Dear Jairam, > Yes, I suppose lust is a disease of the mind, whereas hunger and > thirst are of the body. But are we not the body/mind complex? And did > not lust originate for the purpose of physical propagation of the > race? We can distinguish body and mind and yet it is only a > distinction between gross and subtle, is it not, of the same basic > problem? > Good to hear from you, > Edith Hello Edith: it is nice that we can talk of things sublime without meeting...the wonders and the blessings of technology are not all bad after all! Before i do respond to your thoughts i just want to say that you do have a very wonderful tone to all your messages... a compassion laces them all. I need to learn from that for I am always so direct and 'in-the-face' and although i do not mean to put people off that is what i end up doing. But i might add, it is my intense and eager quest to get to the heart of the matter in the shortest possible time that compels me, sometimes unawares, to be forthright and frank. Please bear this in mind when you read my msgs. Having said that, i would say that we are not the body/mind complex. The body, the mind and the intellect are in a continuous state of flux. it has been in a state of flux ever since our birth and yet we remain the same...the same Edith Tipple or the same 'individual' behind the the body, the mind and the intellect. When i was a baby i had a physical form that was vastly different form of now. My mind has grown ( or at least i would like to think it has!!) ....my intellect has assumed changes in its ability to meet challenges,...it has grown ...or perhaps it has even declined. None of these attributes that go in to make my personality has remained the same. And yet i claim to be the same Jairam that was born 41 years ago! Our thoughts come and our thoughts go...but we remain. So we cannot be our mind and our intellects. Our bodies even as of now are undergoing change and decay, and renewing itself in ways not seen and yet we are the witness to the changes remain the same. If you are witnessing a change in an object ...you cannot be the object. This is critical if we are to understand this thought process. You cannot be what you observe. As Shankara said in Drik Dhrishya Viveka.... the ultimate you is the Infinite Consciousness that is within you ..as IT alone is the Eternal Witness. IT alone remains ever constant, and ever the witness to all changes. What we as human beings unfortunately make the mistake of is that we identify ourselves with our personalities that is made up of our bodies, our professions our relationships our minds and our intellects. ALL of which are constantly changing and sifting. When anyone talks disparagingly of these traits of ours that we identify and attach ourselves to we get hurt. If we think highly of what we identify with we think well of ourselves. In essence these identifications and attachments are what comprise our egos. Ego is nothing other than attachments and identifications and when someone talks disparagingly of our attachments, say our profession , or what we do for a living, 'our ego is hurt' If these identifications that we attach ourselves to constantly change over time, and no one can deny that they do, someone within you is observing that change. If that is so, then how can 'you' be the body/mind/complex? It is our false identification and attachment to our identifications that makes us think that we are the Body, we are the mind and we are the intellect. Lust is a need, a craving at the level of the mind. Not the Body. The Body can well do without sensual pleasures. The mind craves comfort in sensual pleasures. Why? Well it is because it seeks approval, it seeks acceptance, it seeks comfort from an individual and 'another mind' for those words that convey, " you are ok " " you are divine " " you are lovely " The mind seeks acceptance in the form of physical comfort because it identifies itself as being the Body ...the sense of touch and affection is all important for such a personality. However, on analysis, lust is always the deeper result of a craving arising out of non-fulfillment, of harboring a sense of inadequacy of some form or the other. If the soul within is Eternally Perfect and Whole, and if we as Jivas have identified with that Self within , where is the need of approval in the form of physical comfort and acceptance and approval seeking measures from someone else? Another curious thing about lust is that it is never satiated unless the true cause of inadequacy or non-fulfillment is quenched. It reasserts itself again and again...ad infinitum. As Shankara said " As we grow old our teeth fall off, our limbs grow weak, hair thins noticeably, we need crutches to walk, and yet even as the body grows weak and the eyes grow dim, the desires of the mind in the form of lust and other cravings keep growing!!! " That is Hell! Elephant groups have a bull elephant as their leader that protects the herd, That leader is also the sire and is responsible for propagating the herd's continuance. ie that bull elephant fathers the most baby elephants being the fittest of the bulls. This ensures that the fittest genes get propagated. However as the bull elephant leader ages, it gets superceded by other more able and strong bulls and as such it is unable to satisfy its cravings in old age. Such bulls go mad with frenzy in its last years of its life and are usually abandoned by the rest of the group to die on its own. It is human beings alone that can transcend the need for lust through prayer and by developing a love for God., As Ramakrishna said, Love for God is the Tiger that kills jealousy, anger, lust and other negative traits. " It can also be done through discrimination, by reasoning over and over again whether lust is really the cure or merely a ephemeral instance that is sure to prop up again, The former method of love of God is Bhakti, the latter Jnana. " Knowledge Devotion, DIscrimination and Renunciation is Key " ...as Ramakrishna said. No other Messiah has made it so CLEAR...no other Prophet has spoonfed us to the extent that Ramakrishna has done and continues to do. We owe our very lives to HIM! Life is full of suffering. If as you say that lust is to propagate life on earth, then you are accepting suffering as inevitable. The aim of life is to transcend suffering. There are far greater lives beyond what we know in this material state. We are in a fallen state. We need to break out of it. Lust is NOT the way out of it. Just one last point ...when we are at our creative best, when we are working towards a DEADline and are utilizing all our creative energies to the max, we experience less of that demon lust within. The secret is to find our creative potential, our very Dharma, our passion that utilizes our every ounce of energy ....in such a way that we ENJOY doing what we are doing. When we love what we do and do what we love we will not find the need to satisfy inner cravings for lust. In response to KAREN'S predilection for ice cream we enjoy doing anything because we find absolutel synchronicity in that act, Our minds become focused, the rancour within subsides when we are having that blessed and divine ice cream . In reality it is that STATE that we enjoy. Not the taste of the ice cream. It is the state induced by that taste...sure. Sometimes we mechanically have that ice cream without our minds on it, and we hardly realize that we have had our most 'favoritest' icecream. Even our taste buds did not do much to remind us of the usually supreme experience. In such cases our minds have not been brought to rest and are still in rancour, not in the present moment. Any act, any event that brings us to the moment of the NOW, is a state of zen that we always enjoy. The state of NOW is the state of Heaven and is indeed blissful. That is why a lot of these drugs that induce that state of Now in a much more intense state are hankered after. These external inducements however always carry an 'after-effect' that is detrimental to the individual's growth. It is only through Meditation and the Yogas that a permanent and lasting state of Bliss can be found. Not thorugh lust and no...not even through your favourite ice-cream! hope this helps... utmost regards to you and Karen jairam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 27, 1999 Report Share Posted August 27, 1999 Namaste Jairam-ji I truly love this post. Every word is true and inspired. Thanks a million. Jai Ram!!!!!!! Kathi > > Jairam Seshadri [sMTP:seshadri] > Thursday, August 26, 1999 7:04 AM > Ramakrishna ; edtipple > [ramakrishna] re Lust and physical propagation > > " Jairam Seshadri " <seshadri > > > > Dear Jairam, > > > Yes, I suppose lust is a disease of the mind, whereas hunger and > > thirst are of the body. But are we not the body/mind complex? And did > > not lust originate for the purpose of physical propagation of the > > race? We can distinguish body and mind and yet it is only a > > distinction between gross and subtle, is it not, of the same basic > > problem? > > Good to hear from you, > > Edith > > Hello Edith: > > it is nice that we can talk of things sublime without meeting...the > wonders and the blessings of technology are not all bad after all! > > Before i do respond to your thoughts i just want to say that you do > have a very wonderful tone to all your messages... a compassion laces > them all. I need to learn from that for I am always so direct and > 'in-the-face' and although i do not mean to put people off that is > what i end up doing. > But i might add, it is my intense and eager > quest to get to the heart of the matter in the shortest possible time > that compels me, sometimes unawares, to be forthright and frank. > Please bear this in mind when you read my msgs. > > Having said that, i would say that we are not the body/mind complex. > The body, the mind and the intellect are in a continuous state of > flux. it has been in a state of flux ever since our birth and > yet we remain the same...the same Edith Tipple or the same > 'individual' behind the the body, the mind and the intellect. When i > was a baby i had a physical form that was vastly different form of > now. My mind has grown ( or at least i would like to think it has!!) > ...my intellect has assumed changes in its ability to meet > challenges,...it has grown ...or perhaps it has even declined. None > of these attributes that go in to make my personality has remained > the same. And yet i claim to be the same Jairam that was born 41 > years ago! Our thoughts come and our thoughts go...but we remain. So > we cannot be our mind and our intellects. Our bodies even as of now > are undergoing change and decay, and renewing itself in ways not > seen and yet we are the witness to the changes remain the same. > > If you are witnessing a change in an object ...you cannot be the > object. This is critical if we are to understand this thought > process. > > You cannot be what you observe. > As Shankara said in Drik Dhrishya > Viveka.... the ultimate you is the Infinite Consciousness that is > within you ..as IT alone is the Eternal Witness. IT alone remains > ever constant, and ever the witness to all changes. > > What we as human beings unfortunately make the mistake of is that we > identify ourselves with our personalities that is made up of our > bodies, our professions our relationships our minds and our > intellects. ALL of which are constantly changing and sifting. When > anyone talks disparagingly of these traits of ours that we identify > and attach ourselves to we get hurt. If we think highly of what we > identify with we think well of ourselves. In essence these > identifications and attachments are what comprise our egos. Ego is > nothing other than attachments and identifications and when someone > talks disparagingly of our attachments, say our profession , or what > we do for a living, 'our ego is hurt' > > If these identifications that we attach ourselves to constantly > change over time, and no one can deny that they do, someone within > you is observing that change. If that is so, then how can 'you' be > the body/mind/complex? > > It is our false identification and attachment to our > identifications that makes us think that we are the Body, we are > the mind and we are the intellect. > > Lust is a need, a craving at the level of the mind. Not the Body. The > Body can well do without sensual pleasures. The mind craves comfort > in sensual pleasures. Why? > Well it is because it seeks approval, it seeks acceptance, it seeks > comfort from an individual and 'another mind' for those words that > convey, " you are ok " " you are divine " " you are lovely " > > The mind seeks acceptance in the form of physical comfort because it > identifies itself as being the Body ...the sense of touch and > affection is all important for such a personality. However, on > analysis, lust is always the deeper result of a craving arising out > of non-fulfillment, of harboring a sense of inadequacy of some form > or the other. If the soul within is Eternally Perfect and Whole, and > if we as Jivas have identified with that Self within , where is the > need of approval in the form of physical comfort and acceptance and > approval seeking measures from someone else? > > Another curious thing about lust is that it is never satiated unless > the true cause of inadequacy or non-fulfillment is quenched. It > reasserts itself again and again...ad infinitum. As Shankara said " > As we grow old our teeth fall off, our limbs grow weak, hair thins > noticeably, we need crutches to walk, and yet even as the body grows > weak and the eyes grow dim, the desires of the mind in the form of > lust and other cravings keep growing!!! " > > That is Hell! > > Elephant groups have a bull elephant as their leader that protects > the herd, That leader is also the sire and is responsible for > propagating the herd's continuance. ie that bull elephant fathers the > most baby elephants being the fittest of the bulls. This ensures that > the fittest genes get propagated. However as the bull elephant leader > ages, it gets superceded by other more able and strong bulls and as > such it is unable to satisfy its cravings in old age. Such bulls go > mad with frenzy in its last years of its life and are usually > abandoned by the rest of the group to die on its own. > > It is human beings alone that can transcend the need for lust through > prayer and by developing a love for God., As Ramakrishna said, Love > for God is the Tiger that kills jealousy, anger, lust and other > negative traits. " It can also be done through discrimination, by > reasoning over and over again whether lust is really the cure or > merely a ephemeral instance that is sure to prop up again, The > former method of love of God is Bhakti, the latter Jnana. > > " Knowledge Devotion, DIscrimination and Renunciation is Key " ...as > Ramakrishna said. No other Messiah has made it so CLEAR...no other > Prophet has spoonfed us to the extent that Ramakrishna has done and > continues to do. We owe our very lives to HIM! > > > Life is full of suffering. If as you say that lust is to propagate > life on earth, then you are accepting suffering as inevitable. The > aim of life is to transcend suffering. There are far greater lives > beyond what we know in this material state. We are in a fallen state. > We need to break out of it. Lust is NOT the way out of it. > > Just one last point ...when we are at our creative best, when we are > working towards a DEADline and are utilizing all our creative > energies to the max, we experience less of that demon lust within. > The secret is to find our creative potential, our very Dharma, our > passion that utilizes our every ounce of energy ....in such a way > that we ENJOY doing what we are doing. When we love what we do and do > what we love we will not find the need to satisfy inner cravings for > lust. > > In response to KAREN'S predilection for ice cream we enjoy doing > anything because we find absolutel synchronicity in that act, Our > minds become focused, the rancour within subsides when we are having > that blessed and divine ice cream . In reality it is that STATE that > we enjoy. Not the taste of the ice cream. It is the state induced by > that taste...sure. Sometimes we mechanically have that ice cream > without our minds on it, and we hardly realize that we have had our > most 'favoritest' icecream. Even our taste buds did not do much to > remind us of the usually supreme experience. In such cases our minds > have not been brought to rest and are still in rancour, not in the > present moment. Any act, any event that brings us to the moment of > the NOW, is a state of zen that we always enjoy. The state of NOW is > the state of Heaven and is indeed blissful. That is why a lot of > these drugs that induce that state of Now in a much more intense > state are hankered after. These external inducements however always > carry an 'after-effect' that is detrimental to the individual's > growth. > > It is only through Meditation and the Yogas that a permanent and > lasting state of Bliss can be found. > > Not thorugh lust and no...not even through your favourite ice-cream! > > hope this helps... > > > utmost regards to you and Karen > jairam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests. > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 10, 1999 Report Share Posted September 10, 1999 Dear Kathi-ji thank you for your kind words... i have been away in the US for two weeks and that is why i have been silent. I have so much to catch up on... thanks once again.. jairam > K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan > > Namaste Jairam-ji > > I truly love this post. Every word is true and inspired. Thanks a > million. > > Jai Ram!!!!!!! > Kathi > > > > > Jairam Seshadri [sMTP:seshadri] > > Thursday, August 26, 1999 7:04 AM > > Ramakrishna ; edtipple > > [ramakrishna] re Lust and physical propagation > > > > " Jairam Seshadri " <seshadri > > > > > > > Dear Jairam, > > > > > Yes, I suppose lust is a disease of the mind, whereas hunger and > > > thirst are of the body. But are we not the body/mind complex? And did > > > not lust originate for the purpose of physical propagation of the > > > race? We can distinguish body and mind and yet it is only a > > > distinction between gross and subtle, is it not, of the same basic > > > problem? > > > Good to hear from you, > > > Edith > > > > Hello Edith: > > > > it is nice that we can talk of things sublime without meeting...the > > wonders and the blessings of technology are not all bad after all! > > > > Before i do respond to your thoughts i just want to say that you do > > have a very wonderful tone to all your messages... a compassion laces > > them all. I need to learn from that for I am always so direct and > > 'in-the-face' and although i do not mean to put people off that is > > what i end up doing. > > But i might add, it is my intense and eager > > quest to get to the heart of the matter in the shortest possible time > > that compels me, sometimes unawares, to be forthright and frank. > > Please bear this in mind when you read my msgs. > > > > Having said that, i would say that we are not the body/mind complex. > > The body, the mind and the intellect are in a continuous state of > > flux. it has been in a state of flux ever since our birth and > > yet we remain the same...the same Edith Tipple or the same > > 'individual' behind the the body, the mind and the intellect. When i > > was a baby i had a physical form that was vastly different form of > > now. My mind has grown ( or at least i would like to think it has!!) > > ...my intellect has assumed changes in its ability to meet > > challenges,...it has grown ...or perhaps it has even declined. None > > of these attributes that go in to make my personality has remained > > the same. And yet i claim to be the same Jairam that was born 41 > > years ago! Our thoughts come and our thoughts go...but we remain. So > > we cannot be our mind and our intellects. Our bodies even as of now > > are undergoing change and decay, and renewing itself in ways not > > seen and yet we are the witness to the changes remain the same. > > > > If you are witnessing a change in an object ...you cannot be the > > object. This is critical if we are to understand this thought > > process. > > > > You cannot be what you observe. > > As Shankara said in Drik Dhrishya > > Viveka.... the ultimate you is the Infinite Consciousness that is > > within you ..as IT alone is the Eternal Witness. IT alone remains > > ever constant, and ever the witness to all changes. > > > > What we as human beings unfortunately make the mistake of is that we > > identify ourselves with our personalities that is made up of our > > bodies, our professions our relationships our minds and our > > intellects. ALL of which are constantly changing and sifting. When > > anyone talks disparagingly of these traits of ours that we identify > > and attach ourselves to we get hurt. If we think highly of what we > > identify with we think well of ourselves. In essence these > > identifications and attachments are what comprise our egos. Ego is > > nothing other than attachments and identifications and when someone > > talks disparagingly of our attachments, say our profession , or what > > we do for a living, 'our ego is hurt' > > > > If these identifications that we attach ourselves to constantly > > change over time, and no one can deny that they do, someone within > > you is observing that change. If that is so, then how can 'you' be > > the body/mind/complex? > > > > It is our false identification and attachment to our > > identifications that makes us think that we are the Body, we are > > the mind and we are the intellect. > > > > Lust is a need, a craving at the level of the mind. Not the Body. The > > Body can well do without sensual pleasures. The mind craves comfort > > in sensual pleasures. Why? > > Well it is because it seeks approval, it seeks acceptance, it seeks > > comfort from an individual and 'another mind' for those words that > > convey, " you are ok " " you are divine " " you are lovely " > > > > The mind seeks acceptance in the form of physical comfort because it > > identifies itself as being the Body ...the sense of touch and > > affection is all important for such a personality. However, on > > analysis, lust is always the deeper result of a craving arising out > > of non-fulfillment, of harboring a sense of inadequacy of some form > > or the other. If the soul within is Eternally Perfect and Whole, and > > if we as Jivas have identified with that Self within , where is the > > need of approval in the form of physical comfort and acceptance and > > approval seeking measures from someone else? > > > > Another curious thing about lust is that it is never satiated unless > > the true cause of inadequacy or non-fulfillment is quenched. It > > reasserts itself again and again...ad infinitum. As Shankara said " > > As we grow old our teeth fall off, our limbs grow weak, hair thins > > noticeably, we need crutches to walk, and yet even as the body grows > > weak and the eyes grow dim, the desires of the mind in the form of > > lust and other cravings keep growing!!! " > > > > That is Hell! > > > > Elephant groups have a bull elephant as their leader that protects > > the herd, That leader is also the sire and is responsible for > > propagating the herd's continuance. ie that bull elephant fathers the > > most baby elephants being the fittest of the bulls. This ensures that > > the fittest genes get propagated. However as the bull elephant leader > > ages, it gets superceded by other more able and strong bulls and as > > such it is unable to satisfy its cravings in old age. Such bulls go > > mad with frenzy in its last years of its life and are usually > > abandoned by the rest of the group to die on its own. > > > > It is human beings alone that can transcend the need for lust through > > prayer and by developing a love for God., As Ramakrishna said, Love > > for God is the Tiger that kills jealousy, anger, lust and other > > negative traits. " It can also be done through discrimination, by > > reasoning over and over again whether lust is really the cure or > > merely a ephemeral instance that is sure to prop up again, The > > former method of love of God is Bhakti, the latter Jnana. > > > > " Knowledge Devotion, DIscrimination and Renunciation is Key " ...as > > Ramakrishna said. No other Messiah has made it so CLEAR...no other > > Prophet has spoonfed us to the extent that Ramakrishna has done and > > continues to do. We owe our very lives to HIM! > > > > > > Life is full of suffering. If as you say that lust is to propagate > > life on earth, then you are accepting suffering as inevitable. The > > aim of life is to transcend suffering. There are far greater lives > > beyond what we know in this material state. We are in a fallen state. > > We need to break out of it. Lust is NOT the way out of it. > > > > Just one last point ...when we are at our creative best, when we are > > working towards a DEADline and are utilizing all our creative > > energies to the max, we experience less of that demon lust within. > > The secret is to find our creative potential, our very Dharma, our > > passion that utilizes our every ounce of energy ....in such a way > > that we ENJOY doing what we are doing. When we love what we do and do > > what we love we will not find the need to satisfy inner cravings for > > lust. > > > > In response to KAREN'S predilection for ice cream we enjoy doing > > anything because we find absolutel synchronicity in that act, Our > > minds become focused, the rancour within subsides when we are having > > that blessed and divine ice cream . In reality it is that STATE that > > we enjoy. Not the taste of the ice cream. It is the state induced by > > that taste...sure. Sometimes we mechanically have that ice cream > > without our minds on it, and we hardly realize that we have had our > > most 'favoritest' icecream. Even our taste buds did not do much to > > remind us of the usually supreme experience. In such cases our minds > > have not been brought to rest and are still in rancour, not in the > > present moment. Any act, any event that brings us to the moment of > > the NOW, is a state of zen that we always enjoy. The state of NOW is > > the state of Heaven and is indeed blissful. That is why a lot of > > these drugs that induce that state of Now in a much more intense > > state are hankered after. These external inducements however always > > carry an 'after-effect' that is detrimental to the individual's > > growth. > > > > It is only through Meditation and the Yogas that a permanent and > > lasting state of Bliss can be found. > > > > Not thorugh lust and no...not even through your favourite ice-cream! > > > > hope this helps... > > > > > > utmost regards to you and Karen > > jairam > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > > > ONElist: your connection to people who share your interests. > > > > ------ > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > ONElist now has T-SHIRTS! > For details and to order, go to: > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/tshirt1 " >Click Here</a> > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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