Body/mind complex

[Guest guest]

Hi there Edith:

thank you for your reply.

i agree with all that you say but i need clarification on some

points ...so i have interspersed my questions/clarifications with

your response. I have capitalised your response just to distinguish

your words from mine....

 

DEAR JAIRAM,

 

WHAT A MARVELOUS WONDER TO " HEAR " YOU SAY THAT MY MESSAGES ARE LACED

WITH COMPASSION, WHEREAS YOU FEEL THAT YOU ARE SO DIRECT, SO

" IN-THE-FACE " THAT YOU PUT PEOPLE OFF. I OFTEN FEAR THAT IS EXACTLY

WHAT I DO, SO YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT A JOY IT WAS TO HEAR TO THE

CONTRARY. THANK YOU FOR COMMUNICATING YOUR REACTION.

 

i am glad that i am not the only one ..and i too feel better at

'meeting' someone who has gone thru the same pangs!

 

and your messages are indeed laced with compassion.

 

 

YES, I AGREE THAT THE BODY, THE MIND AND THE INTELLECT ARE IN A

CONTINUOUS STATE OF FLUX -- BUT THE INDIVIDUAL SELF CONNECTS THE

CHANGE THROUGH MEMORY AND SAMSKARAS. THE " EDITH TIPPLE " WHO GOES TO

SLEEP AND DREAMS SHE IS A PRINCESS AT 10 IS THE SAME ONE WHO WAKES UP

A CHARWOMAN AT 50. IT IS THAT " EDITH TIPPLE " I REFER TO, NOT TO THE

SELF, THE INFINITE CONSCIOUSNESS, THE WITNESS, TO WHICH SHANKARA

REFERS. WE INDIVIDUAL SELVES ARE BORN WITH OUR SPECIES' GENETIC

PROCLIVITIES (LUST/PROCREATION OF THE SPECIES, ETC.) AS WELL AS OUR

OWN INDIVIDUAL SAMSKARAS AND KARMA. WE ARE PLAY ACTING THROUGH THEM ON

THE STAGE OF RELATIVE EXISTENCE. WHEN WE REALIZE IT IS A STAGE, THE

PLAY WILL BE OVER.

 

i am slightly confused here. If you say that there is a constant

edith tipple between your samskaras,memories lacing your personality

together and between the Infinite Consciousness within you, i

suppose you are right for the life that you live. But the

identifications and attachments of that edith tipple do change. the

samskaras and memories are also being erased and added to. It is only

the Infinite Consciousness within you that remains ever a witness and

is ever constant. the genetic proclivities that you mention all

are in a state of flux...

 

Would you not agree? or am i missing something?

 

the edith tipple at 10 and the edith tipple as a chairwoman at 50 is

only same in name, not in their identifications and attachments. if

name alone were all that edith tipple is, then no change has

been effected. If we continue to identify with those external

attachments that continually change then we do experience

disillusionment...

 

or am i wrong?

 

AND I AGREE THAT LUST CAN MANIFEST IN THE FORM OF THE NEED FOR

APPROVAL, ACCEPTANCE, ETC., BUT THERE IS STILL THE PHYSICAL

PROCREATION PROBLEM -- WHICH NOT EVERY SINGLE PERSON ADHERES, BUT THE

MAJORITY DO...

 

i do not understand what you mean here...if you are saying that

procreation is a biological necessity, then i do beg to differ.

procreation and the children that we beget is entirely due to a need

within the mind. the need to love and the need to be loved is

entirely due to a distancing of our personality from the Infinite

COnsciousness...

 

again i might be missing something...if i am please clarify...

 

YOU SAY, " IF THE SOUL WITHIN IS ETERNALLY PERFECT AND

WHOLE, AND IF WE AS JIVAS HAVE IDENTIFIED WITH THAT SELF WITHIN, WHERE

IS THE NEED OF APPROVAL IN THE FORM OF PHYSICAL COMFORT,

ACCEPTANCE,APPROVAL ETC. " BUT THAT IS THE PROBLEM! WE HAVE NOT

IDENTIFIED WITH THAT SELF WITHIN! THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH ONE MUST

REALIZE. IT IS A QUANTUM LEAP FROM TALKING ABOUT INTELLECTUALLY.

 

i agree wholeheartedly. it is a quantum leap from talking about it

and actually realizing it. but it is nevertheless true that once we

realize it (and only humans can realize it) the need for lust

disappears. so lust within a human being can be eradicated and the

human being can live prosperously...without lust...

 

 

YOU SAY: " LIFE IS FULL OF SUFFERING. IF AS YOU SAY THAT LUST IS TO

PROPAGATE LIFE ON EARTH, THEN YOU ARE ACCEPTING SUFFERING AS

INEVITABLE... " YES, SUFFERING IS INEVITABLE. READ BUDDHA.

 

suffering is inevitable for one who does not choose to realize the

Self within. Buddha Himself said that suffering can be overcome

through realizing the Self within...or through Nirvana.

Suffering is universal only for those who live at the level of the

personality, at the level of the identifications, karmas, samskaras,

..... true that to an extent we are guided like automatons when

samskaras are deeply ingrained in us. But the grace of a Guru and

fervent prayers erase and eradicate those very samskaras...

 

 

YOU CONTINUE: " THE AIM OF LIFE IS TO TRANSCEND SUFFERING... " EXACTLY.

BUT DENYING IT DOES NOT ELIMINATE IT.

 

one transcends suffering through suffering...one transcends pleasure

through pleasure, transcends pain through pain. it is not through

denial that we extinguish or quench the desires within but it is

through working through them. i agree with you ...one cannot deny it.

but there are certain needs like lust and the love of 'gold' that

cannot be extinguished by merely fulfilling them, for the more you

have of them the more you want of them. it is like adding ghee to the

fire. that is why Sri Ramakrishna was so adamant about not fuelling

the desire for lust and the love for gold.

 

only by going deeper within and by eradicating the cause of the

need felt for lust and the love of money can they eradicated. again

one is not denying the presence of lust, one is only asked to seek

the cause for such thoughts. self inquiry is what is asked for.

when lust presents itself in our minds it is helpful to detach

ourselves and ask the reason for...when we do this and look at the

thought of lust arising, we are immediately putting a distance

between 'us' and lust. we cannot be what we observe. if we

intellectually analyse the reasons for lust, for the moment that we

are intellectually analysisng, lust lets go of us...we cannot be what

we observe...that is why it is said that journalising your innermost

thoughts is such a tremendous aid for spiritual progress...

 

 

AND YOU CONTINUE: " JUST ONE LAST POINT ...WHEN WE ARE AT OUR CREATIVE

BEST, WHEN WE ARE WORKING TOWARDS A DEADLINE AND ARE UTILIZING ALL OUR

CREATIVE ENERGIES TO THE MAX, WE EXPERIENCE LESS OF THAT DEMON LUST

WITHIN. THE SECRET IS TO FIND OUR CREATIVE POTENTIAL, OUR VERY DHARMA,

OUR PASSION THAT UTILIZES OUR EVERY OUNCE OF ENERGY ....IN SUCH A WAY

THAT WE ENJOY DOING WHAT WE ARE DOING. WHEN WE LOVE WHAT WE DO AND DO

WHAT WE LOVE WE WILL NOT FIND THE NEED TO SATISFY INNER CRAVINGS FOR

LUST. " UNTIL YOU GET BORED WITH THAT ACTIVITY. THE ONLY WAY IS

WHOLE-SOULED DEVOTION TO GOD, TRUTH, CALL IT WHAT YOU WILL. THAT IS

WHAT RAMAKRISHNA SAYS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN FOR HUNDREDS OF

PAGES. AND IT IS THE SAME TRUTH KRISHNA, CHRIST, CHAITANYA, SHANKARA,

ALL THE GREAT TEACHERS TAUGHT -- IN THEIR OWN WORDS. ACTUALLY, ALL IN

THE WORLD WE NEED DO IS TURN THAT CONSUMING CRAVING CALLED LUST INTO

LUST FOR GOD. " CRY FOR GOD WITH A YEARNING HEART " . CONTINUOUSLY. VERY

BEST WISHES, EDITH

 

 

i agree wholeheartedly with your thoughts above...

 

are you in england...? i was there just this june...did i by chance

get to seeing you without actually meeting you at the retreat that

was held in June 99?

 

namaskar and pranaams

 

jairam

[Guest guest]

This again reminds me of Swami Prabhavananda's response to someone who

said, " But I am That! I don't need to deal with all the perplexities

and complications of maya and all that. " Swami P said something to

the effect, " You can say, 'I am That' when you do not feel the

physical pain of my hitting you over the head or the egotistic smart

when something unkind is said about you. Not before. "

Edith

[Guest guest]

Dear Dr. Shah,

 

Thank you for your clear input on the body/mind complex discussion.

Edith

[Guest guest]

Dear Jairam,

 

YOU SAY: am slightly confused here. If you say that there is a

constant

edith tipple between your samskaras,memories lacing your personality

together and between the Infinite Consciousness within you, i

suppose you are right for the life that you live. But the

identifications and attachments of that edith tipple do change. the

samskaras and memories are also being erased and added to. It is only

the Infinite Consciousness within you that remains ever a witness and

is ever constant. the genetic proclivities that you mention all

are in a state of flux...

 

Yes, the identifications and attachments change and some memories are

forgotten in the process of life, but as long as any memories and

samskaras leap to activity with the slightest suggestion, we are not

free. By practicing being the Witness, if we are truly able to

understand that what we are watching are gunas attaching themselves to

gunas, then the light of Infinite Consciousness can flood. All I meant

was that simply stating the intellectual conviction that one is

Infinite Consciousness, does not make one a realized free soul.

 

YOU SAID: the edith tipple at 10 and the edith tipple as a chairwoman

at 50 is

only same in name, not in their identifications and attachments. if

name alone were all that edith tipple is, then no change has

been effected. If we continue to identify with those external

attachments that continually change then we do experience

disillusionment...

 

I'm not talking about identifying with external attachments. I am

talking about that individual personality you remember yourself to be

at your earliest memories and the person you feel inside at the

present time. It is the same personality, the same avenue for working

out particular samskaras; if some samskaras have been erased, there is

still a bridge of samskaras from first Jaimram to today's Jairam.

 

I said that I agreed that lust can manifest in the form of the need

for approval, acceptance, etc, but (and I did not say it well) it can

also manifest because of the genetic tendency to procreate for the

survival of the species.

YOU ANSWER: i do not understand what you mean here...if you are

saying that

procreation is a biological necessity, then i do beg to differ.

procreation and the children that we beget is entirely due to a need

within the mind. the need to love and the need to be loved is

entirely due to a distancing of our personality from the Infinite

COnsciousness...

 

We have a clear difference of opinion here. I agree that the need to

love and the need to be loved is entirely due to a distancing of

ourselves from the Infinite Consciousness -- but that we are!!! We may

be nothing but Infinite Existence-Consciousness-Bliss -- but until we

realize that, the statement is nothing but a clue.

 

YOU SAY: i agree wholeheartedly. it is a quantum leap from talking

about it

and actually realizing it. but it is nevertheless true that once we

realize it (and only humans can realize it) the need for lust

disappears. so lust within a human being can be eradicated and the

human being can live prosperously...without lust...

 

Of course! But we haven't realized it yet! Repeat: realization does

not mean intellectual conviction.

 

You were not happy with my statement that life was indeed full of

suffering (as well as pleasure, of course) and said:

suffering is inevitable for one who does not choose to realize the

Self within. Buddha Himself said that suffering can be overcome

through realizing the Self within...or through Nirvana.

Suffering is universal only for those who live at the level of the

personality, at the level of the identifications, karmas, samskaras,

..... true that to an extent we are guided like automatons when

samskaras are deeply ingrained in us. But the grace of a Guru and

fervent prayers erase and eradicate those very samskaras...

 

Read Shankara again. This life is birth and death, pleasure and pain,

suffering and happiness, pairs of opposites to the end. Of course the

goal of the spiritual aspirant is to realize the Self within and stop

the suffering. I'm not there. Are you saying you are?

 

No, I'm not in England, I'm in California in the U.S. Where are you?

You saw dear Swami Dayatmananda?

 

It has been an interesting discussion.

Very best wishes,

Edith