Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 Hari Om! Dear Dr. Shah, This is a discussion that contains MEAT. Thank you for bringing it on. To further comment on the subject at hand, I should like to say that there is ONE instance, where 'lying' seems to be 'in order'. If the President, Governor General, or Queen tells you to lie... then you must lie. Bye the way, we have just appointed a well-known Canadian broadcaster, of asian origin, as Governor General of Canada. She was born in Hong Kong and has been lving here for many years. She is a well known personality on the CBC. Her name is Adrienne Clarkson. Now, if Adrienne Clarkson tells me to lie, I will do it, without further thought. Why? Because it will be then HER responsibility, NOT mine ! _________________________ " In war-time, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies " . Famous quote of Sir Winston Spencer Churchill. __________________________ As the Blessed Nasrani Jishoo said: " Render to Caesar, what is Caesar's, and render to God, what is God's. " om shanthi om ____ 123India - India's Premier Search Engine Get your Free Email Account at http://www.123india.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 11, 1999 Report Share Posted September 11, 1999 Dear everyone, The problem I posed is indeed intriguing to me also. However I quote what I have recently read. The problem may be seen as a mixture of Truth and Ahimsa. " ...But Yogis try to practice ahimsa in its totality, as a supreme vow - mahavrata. First of all they refrain from doing even least harm to human beings, Next, they inflict as little injury to subhuman creatures, Then they try to practice harmlessness towards the vegetable kingdom " . c s s ================ omtatsat wrote: > > <omtatsat > > Hari Om! > > Dear Dr. Shah, > > This is a discussion that contains MEAT. Thank you for bringing it > on. ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html ==================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 > Dr C S Shah <drcssha > > Dear everyone, > The problem I posed is indeed intriguing to me also. > However I quote what I have recently read. The problem may be seen as a > mixture of Truth and Ahimsa. > " ...But Yogis try to practice ahimsa in its totality, as a supreme vow - > mahavrata. > First of all they refrain from doing even least harm to human beings, > Next, they inflict as little injury to subhuman creatures, > Then they try to practice harmlessness towards the vegetable kingdom " . > c s s +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ I could not keep away any longer! if the monk told the truth so as to maintain his 'purity', remain sinless and thereby ensure salvation for himself he was only thinking of his needs...and a rather self-centered, selfish need at that. ....that of salvation for himself... If on the other hand he KNEW he was sinning by telling a lie and knew that he was probably damming himself in the process and yet saving the life of a poor innocent cow, knowing full well that the butcher could get another meal elsewhere he would be answering a higher call did not Swami V say (words to the effect) that we who do good acts for the sake of salvation ...that is nothing. Let us follow compassion for the sake of compassion...even if that act brings us untold misery. Let us do good even if it brings us into the portals of HELL... The essence of this problem posed is one of determining the motive behind the act...if it is based on self-centered needs then it is never an altruistic act.... Mother Teresa for me is one of the most wonderful and noble souls that this world has ever produced. But when one heard her speak, she would often say that she did noble acts for salvation. Does not that amount to barter...doing good so that we in turn get good... I personally believe, ofcourse, that Mother was a realized soul and she wanted to set an example for the worldly...some of whom are incapable of understanding doing good even if it means receiving misery in return. ... Did not the Buddha offer His own life for the sacrifice that was to be carried out on the life of a goat....Out of compassion He offered His own life for the sacrifice ...knowing full well that if he saved the life of the goat, He would be casting blame of the person performing the yagna and ending the sacrifice ...In the eyes of the person performing the sacrific, the sacrifice was noble. The Buddha had compassion even for the person killing the goat... Of course, such a person, it could be argued derives his " pleasure " from the 'pleasure' of saving the goat's life even at the cost of his own life. It is true that ULTIMATELY we do acts that give us some form of pleasure...but altruistic acts are those that give us pleasure from the fulfillment of pleasure in others... the monk who was asked which way the cow went would have done well to save the cow's life , or for that matter any animal's life and sought to appease the hunger of the butcher in some other way... He would have done well to lie ..knowing full that that would damn him .,... His soul would rest in peace knowing full well that he had been instrumental in saving the life of a cow... HOLY COW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 omtatsat wrote: > This is a discussion that contains MEAT. Thank you for bringing it > on. *** Yes I have supplied the 'meat' and dear list friends have added the requisite ingredients to make it 'tasty! css ==================================== E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html ==================================== Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 12, 1999 Report Share Posted September 12, 1999 Dear Omtatsat, You say that there is one instance where lying is in order: if the President, Governor General or Queen tells you to lie. That is what brought about the Nazi atrocities, doing what the superior said to do. In that case, of course, they were afraid for their own lives if they did not follow orders. Where, then, is the line? Edith Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 At the risk of adding a superflous spice to an already tasty dish, I wanted to add another thought: we have been discussing what the monk should do and why. easy after the fact. yet, i think the whole key is to keep our minds in meditation. when confronted with a situation, do the *best we know how*. then return to meditation without worrying about results. i do believe that - 1. the more the mind is in meditation, the more it will automatically do the appropriate thing in each circumstance without needing a discursive (linear) analysis. The intuition or inner guide takes over with such a one. 2. for us, it can be difficult and messy at first to do this, but we CAN jump off into that abyss of faith! We naturally want to do the right thing, and want to KNOW what that is, so trusting inner guide is difficult at first. But with practice it becomes easier. Namaste, Karen Westend Ashram Dr C S Shah wrote: > Dr C S Shah <drcssha > > omtatsat wrote: > > This is a discussion that contains MEAT. Thank you for bringing it > > on. > *** > > Yes I have supplied the 'meat' and dear list friends have added the > requisite ingredients to make it 'tasty! > css > ==================================== > E-magazine on science and spirituality. Visit: > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Styx/1704/index.html > http://members.xoom.com/drcsshah/neovedanta/index.html > ==================================== > > --------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > > Celebrate the NEW ONElist! > Enter to win a trip to Hawaii! Go to: > <a href= " http://clickme./ad/hawaii2 " >Click Here</a> > > ------ > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 Bravo! Edith Thanks! On Sun, 12 Sep 1999, EDTipple wrote: > EDTipple <edtipple > > Dear Omtatsat, > > You say that there is one instance where lying is in order: if the > President, Governor General or Queen tells you to lie. That is what > brought about the Nazi atrocities, doing what the superior said to do. > In that case, of course, they were afraid for their own lives if they > did not follow orders. Where, then, is the line? > Edith > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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