Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 The question is, " How can the same one 'divine' appear in all this variety? " Does not Ramakrishna's example of water still or in waves answer this question? (Gospel, Nikhilananda translation 277:h) " Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute is one, and one only. But it is associated with different limiting adjuncts on account of the different degrees of its manifstation... Water is water whether it is calm or full of waves and bubbles. The Absolute alone is the Primoridal Energy, which creates, preserves, and destroys... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 Brahman unmanifested is beyond matter, energy, space, and time. It cannot be described just like you cannot describe a zero. Who can say how many people are missing in the room right now? According to my understnding it is Brahman manifested that we call Atman. There is no limit to the different ways Brahman may manifest itself. Brahman can postulate any which way. Who or what is there to limit Brahman? Vinaire - EDTipple <edtipple <Ramakrishna > Friday, February 18, 2000 7:22 PM Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 353 > EDTipple <edtipple > > The question is, " How can the same one 'divine' appear in all this > variety? " > > Does not Ramakrishna's example of water still or in waves answer this > question? (Gospel, Nikhilananda translation 277:h) > " Existence-Knowledge-Bliss Absolute is one, and one only. But it is > associated with different limiting adjuncts on account of the different > degrees of its manifstation... Water is water whether it is calm or full > of waves and bubbles. The Absolute alone is the Primoridal Energy, > which creates, preserves, and destroys... > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 - vinaire <vinaire <Ramakrishna > 19 February 2000 02:08 Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 353 > " vinaire " <vinaire > > Brahman unmanifested is beyond matter, energy, space, and time. > It cannot be described just like you cannot describe a zero. Who can > say how many people are missing in the room right now? > > According to my understanding it is Brahman manifested that we call > Atman. There is no limit to the different ways Brahman may manifest > itself. Brahman can postulate any which way. Who or what is there to > limit Brahman? From Vinaire in another post >What is space? Space is the viewpoint of dimension. If there is no dimension >to perceive there is no space. If there is no viewpoint from which to >perceive, again, there is no space. > Vinaire The key word that to be understood is 'manifest'. What do we mean by 'manifest' ? Try and give any example of how one can explain what is meant by 'manifest' and then see if we have managed to get some sort of handle on the relationship between 'Brahman 'Atman' and the 'Universe' The posting from Vinaire said:- Space is the viewpoint of 'dimension' So we have to ask 'What is this dimension' ? We have just replaced one unknown with another unknown. The concept of 'continuum' of space has been an unresolved problem for mathematics. It is not as easy to dismiss 'space' as something that is a viewpoint of something else. jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 >According to my understnding it is Brahman manifested that we call >Atman. There is no limit to the different ways Brahman may manifest >itself. Brahman can postulate any which way. Who or what is there to >limit Brahman? >Vinaire Namaste But the Upanishadic equation, which is 'Ayam Atma Brahma', says that the Atman is Brahman itself. There is no difference. So the Unmanifested Brahman is the same as the Atman. Regards. Om Shanti Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 The word DIMENSION must be understood properly in relation to SPACE. Any separation creates a dimension. Each duality in this universe presents us with a dimension, doesn't it? So, what is space? Vinaire In response to: > > The key word that to be understood is 'manifest'. > What do we mean by 'manifest' ? > Try and give any example of how one can explain > what is meant by 'manifest' and then see if we have managed to get some sort > of handle on the relationship between 'Brahman 'Atman' and the 'Universe' > > The posting from Vinaire said:- > Space is the viewpoint of 'dimension' > So we have to ask 'What is this dimension' ? > We have just replaced one unknown with another unknown. > The concept of 'continuum' of space has been an unresolved problem for > mathematics. > It is not as easy to dismiss 'space' as something that is a viewpoint of > something else. > > jay > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 19, 2000 Report Share Posted February 19, 2000 Kathi, Namaste, You are correct in pointing out the identity between Brahman and Atman. But don't we have two different words " Brahman' and 'Atman'? Why is that? The truth is that Brahman is never manifested. What is manifested is the creation of Brahman. " Brahman manifested " is a loose term meaning " Brahman manifesting through its creation. " But you can only perceive the creation. You can never perceive Brahman. Brahman is that who is doing the perceiving. So, what is Atman? Atman is Brahman engaged in creation. Vinaire - K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan <ramakrishna > Saturday, February 19, 2000 8:19 AM RE: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 353 > K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan > > >According to my understnding it is Brahman manifested that we call > >Atman. There is no limit to the different ways Brahman may manifest > >itself. Brahman can postulate any which way. Who or what is there to > >limit Brahman? > > >Vinaire > > Namaste > > But the Upanishadic equation, which is 'Ayam Atma Brahma', says that the > Atman is Brahman itself. There is no difference. So the Unmanifested > Brahman is the same as the Atman. Regards. > > Om Shanti > Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 20, 2000 Report Share Posted February 20, 2000 On Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:19:05 +0800 K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan writes: > K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan > > > > >According to my understnding it is Brahman manifested that we call > >Atman. There is no limit to the different ways Brahman may manifest > >itself. Brahman can postulate any which way. Who or what is there > to > >limit Brahman? > > >Vinaire > > Namaste > > But the Upanishadic equation, which is 'Ayam Atma Brahma', says that > the > Atman is Brahman itself. There is no difference. So the > Unmanifested > Brahman is the same as the Atman. Regards. > Kathi, I wanted to say this same thing, but you already said it better. ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2000 Report Share Posted February 21, 2000 Namaste vinaire My comments below. vinaire Ramakrishna 20/02/00 2:06 Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 353 " vinaire " <vinaire >You are correct in pointing out the identity between Brahman and >Atman. But don't we have two different words " Brahman' and >'Atman'? Why is that? The difference can be sensed only in Ignorance (avidya)or in the realm of duality. Since we are all operating in the realm of duality, those words are necessary to indicate the individual (jIvAtma) and the supreme (paramAtma) which is also Brahman. That's all. AT the absolute level there is no need for such words as Brahman or even Atman. it only IS! >The truth is that Brahman is never manifested. What is manifested >is the creation of Brahman. " Brahman manifested " is a loose term >meaning " Brahman manifesting through its creation. " But you can >only perceive the creation. You can never perceive Brahman. Correct. Brahman is not an object of perception. So is the Atman, which is beyond the reach of the senses. Therefore there cannot be two. Only one....and the same. >Brahman is that who is doing the perceiving. Yes. At the absolute standpoint. >So, what is Atman? Atman is Brahman engaged in creation. Atman is the wave in the ocean. remove the name and form (nAmarUpa)it is still the water like the ocean. Why the name and form? Due to Maya. My humble prostrations, Om shAnti Kathi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 21, 2000 Report Share Posted February 21, 2000 I think I may be a little confused about how people are perceiving the advaita philosophy. I'll try to formulate some questions. 1) What is maya if not Brahman? 2) If maya is somehow different from Brahman, how has maya arisen in Brahman? 3) Is maya real or unreal? If unreal, how can it affect Brahman? 4) Who practices " neti neti, " etc., and why? 5) On what basis is the claim of reality being advaita made? Who makes this claim, to whom, and for what purpose? 6) Why has the totality of ignorance not ended for all? (assuming that someone has become enlightened, and that there is no factual difference between one and all) 7) I have heard that when Krishna says " I " or " Me " in the Bhagavad-gita, advaitins have claimed that He means " the impersonal Brahman within Me. " How is this claim of duality between Krishna and the impersonal Self within Him to be understood? I would appreciate if anyone can contribute to answering these questions. (I'll probably come up with some others in the future.) It might benefit others as well. Thank you. -Dharam Dev On Mon, 21 Feb 2000 11:50:29 +0800 K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan writes: > K Kathirasan ADM NCS <kathirasan > > Namaste vinaire > > My comments below. > > > vinaire > Ramakrishna > 20/02/00 2:06 > Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 353 > > " vinaire " <vinaire > > >You are correct in pointing out the identity between Brahman and > >Atman. But don't we have two different words " Brahman' and > >'Atman'? Why is that? > > The difference can be sensed only in Ignorance (avidya)or in the > realm of > duality. Since we are all operating in the realm of duality, those > words > are necessary to indicate the individual (jIvAtma) and the supreme > (paramAtma) which is also Brahman. That's all. AT the absolute > level there > is no need for such words as Brahman or even Atman. it only IS! > > >The truth is that Brahman is never manifested. What is manifested > >is the creation of Brahman. " Brahman manifested " is a loose term > >meaning " Brahman manifesting through its creation. " But you can > >only perceive the creation. You can never perceive Brahman. > > Correct. Brahman is not an object of perception. So is the Atman, > which is > beyond the reach of the senses. Therefore there cannot be two. Only > one....and the same. > > >Brahman is that who is doing the perceiving. > > Yes. At the absolute standpoint. > > >So, what is Atman? Atman is Brahman engaged in creation. > > Atman is the wave in the ocean. remove the name and form > (nAmarUpa)it is > still the water like the ocean. Why the name and form? Due to > Maya. > > My humble prostrations, > Om shAnti > Kathi > > ------ > Shop the web for great deals. Save on Computers, > electronics, Home furnishings and more. > http://click./1/1559/4/_/411454/_/951138004/ > ------ > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.btinternet.com/~vivekananda/ > ______________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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