Guest guest Posted November 30, 2000 Report Share Posted November 30, 2000 Dear Anurag, I am indeed very grateful for your inspiring words. You say, " But even after getting all this a hollowness remains. " You are right. But I have not experienced it yet, because probably my ego is tough. Then, you say, " Whether one goes in to spiritual path due to pain or pleasures, one should be able to see the futility of wordly pleasures. Unless that happens i think there will always be the fear of falling back to the wordly pleasures. " Precisely my fear. And then, you also say, " I think thats why it is said that one should go through all the ashramas " . Does it mean that the experience of futility will come only after all that. For taking to Vedanta, Vairagya is mentioned as a pre-requisite in our shastras. Does it mean I start formal sadhana only after the ashramas are experienced and I (hopefully) realise the futility of pleasures? I take solace in the statement, " Making ourselves perfect is what is spiritual path " . You say, " When we take the step towards perfecting ourselves there are many things that come. We have to give all the attachments and beliefs. " That's an important statement. It shows that giving up attachment is fundamental to perfection. Yogah karmasu kaushalam, Sri Krishna says. So, the yogah of detachment is necessary for human perfection. Anurag, many thanks for your reply. I have been listening on this list for more than a year, and I have found your mails to be thoughtful and well-intended. Regards Sanjay sanjaych || || Anurag Goel [anurag] || Tuesday, November 28, 2000 10:02 PM || Ramakrishna || [ramakrishna] Re: Fellow Seekers || || || || Hi Sanjay! || || Very mature and sincere thoughts. Yes there can be many || reasons due to which we r diverted to spiritual path. But its totally || dependent on indiviual. || || Many a times it happens people take the path in pain and when faced with || big troubles. || || Life puts situations before us to shake our beliefs. And when our beliefs || shake we feel pain. We have to learn from such situations. Many a times || Guru also works this way. He causes situations to happen in disciples || life so that he can learn from situations. Rather situations alone r the || things through which individual learns a great deal. Because there || the element of ego doesn't exist. As such when guru says something || a disciple may not pay attention to it in his ego. But there is no || escape from the situations of life. Rather i believe a guru || exercises a control over disciple life so that the disciple can || learn at a fast rate and realise the ultimate. Whatever we read from || books and lectures does remain to some extent or the other superficial. || FOr these to really sink in to us we have to face the test which || situations put before us. || || || Situations show the futility of the things to whichever we had been || clinging too. || || || About pleasures. Every one wants to feel alive, happy and || contented. Thats || why people do different acts and try to see if they get satisfaction by || doing that. Some put their whole effort in exceling in different field of || study. Some in art, sports etc. Some in becoming rich. Its this urge || to feel alive that one goes for innovative thoughts, ideas and || thinking and doing new things. Some in enjoying things. Its like a search || for something which will make them happy. But even after getting all this || a hollowness remains. || || Yes i think i should agree woith you that the true enlightment will come || after one rises above pleasures. When one sees the futility of || pleasures. || || I think thats why it is said that one should go through all the ashramas || ( Bharmacharya, Grihasta, Vanprasthana (i don't know the name of || one) ) in || life to gain the experience of pleasures and pain of this world. || || Whether one goes in to spiritual path due to pain or pleasures, || one should || be able to see the futility of wordly pleasures. Unless that happens i || think there will always be the fear of falling back to the wordly || pleasures. Fear and attraction is always linked to unknown. || || || Sanjay you say || || ================================================================= || ========= || > So, is it justified to take to this path just because you do not get || > everything you want and work for, because the world is not ideal, || > because relationships are not perfect, because people you interact with || > do not seem to be rational, and so many other things? || ================================================================= || ========= || || All these thing happen so that we can realise how limited the world is. || And the moment we realise the limitations of the world at that || very moment || we have taken the step towards unlimited. Towards realising that || something || like unlimited should be there. And only a unlimited can get a feel of || unlimited. || || ====================================================================== || > The problem is || > that in every event that happens to me, I see that there was something || > lacking in me that caused the frustration. So, it seems that if I || > perfect myself enough then I can circumvent the pain. That the || spiritual || > path does not need to be taken recourse to, as long as there || is room for || > perfecting yourself. || ========================================================================= || || Very true i too think that most of the things happen due to our || imperfection. This imperfection outs us in to all kind of || troubles, pain . || hatred, jeaulousy etc. True if we can deal with our imperfection then we || can deal with pain. || || Making ourselves perfect is what is spiritual path. Spiritual path begins || with the question " Who am i? and ends with an answer to it " || || To know that we are all perfect and to realise this is what spirituality || is all about. || || || ====================================================================== || > Or is it that I can never perfect myself before I take to sadhana? || > Perhaps, a perfect human being will be so ready for liberation that God || > will automatically shine in him? So, am I already on the || spiritual path, || > and the day I rid myself of these little faults I perceive in myself, I || > will achieve liberation anyway? || || ======================================================================= || || A perfect human being doesn't have to go for liberation because he is || already liberated. Perfection is liberation. || || When we take the step towards perfecting ourselves there are many things || that come. We have to give all the attachments and beliefs. We should be || able to feel that we are not body, mind or prana. Everything that is || practised on spiritual path is designed from this very view point. All || these spiritual practices help us realise that we are not body, mind or || prana. || || || love, || || || > || ______________________ || > || > Message: 6 || > Tue, 28 Nov 2000 15:01:45 +0530 || > " Sanjay Chakravarty " <sanjaych || > The Drive for Moksha || > || > Fellow seekers, || > || > I would like to receive some enlightenment on an issue that is || plaguing me || > for long. In the following few lines, I am actually thinking aloud. So, || > please bear with my tone of arguments, and the repetitions. || > || > What drives me to take to the spiritual path today? Why should || I strive for || > moksha? If everything was fine with the material world, and we || got success || > in all our endeavours, then nobody would take to the thorny path of || > liberation. If every effort was crowned with success, we will || not take to || > the " unsure " path of spirituality. In a nutshell, if the world || was full of || > pleasure, and there were no pain, we will not think of rising || above both. || > || > Rare is the human being who, like Buddha, has a burning || aspiration for the || > ultimate. So much so that even the worldly successes and || pleasures seem to || > be a pain to him. Most of us learn that the world is a combination of || > pleasure and pain. It is the pain that drives us to resolve || the mystery of || > experience. || > || > I wonder if taking to the path of spirituality just because of || pain is a || > sign of cowardice. Should one not first actually experience || that there is no || > pleasure in this world *at all*? because the former implies that if the || > world was all pleasurable, I would take it rather than achieve || liberation. || > This makes me unfit for spiritual study, does it not? To take || to spiritual || > sadhana, you must be like Nachiketa who renounced all the pleasures in || > favour of the " mystery of death " , when Yama offered him the former. || > || > I asked this question to someone who I consider learned in the || shastras, and || > he told me, " Arjuna asked for advice from Krishna in the || battlefield, and || > not before that, did he not? So why should you have a problem || taking to the || > spiritual path because you experience pain? " || > || > The argument sounds logical. In fact Sri Krishna gave the || advice to Arjuna || > when the latter was turning away from the heat of battle, when he was || > already displaying cowardice. || > || > So, is it justified to take to this path just because you do not get || > everything you want and work for, because the world is not || ideal, because || > relationships are not perfect, because people you interact || with do not seem || > to be rational, and so many other things? The problem is that || in every event || > that happens to me, I see that there was something lacking in || me that caused || > the frustration. So, it seems that if I perfect myself enough || then I can || > circumvent the pain. That the spiritual path does not need to be taken || > recourse to, as long as there is room for perfecting yourself. || > || > Or is it that I can never perfect myself before I take to || sadhana? Perhaps, || > a perfect human being will be so ready for liberation that God will || > automatically shine in him? So, am I already on the spiritual || path, and the || > day I rid myself of these little faults I perceive in myself, || I will achieve || > liberation anyway? || > || > Regards || > Sanjay Chakravarty || > sanjaych || > || > Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there || is no path, || > and leave a trail - Anonymous || > || || || || || || Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah || Vivekananda Centre London || http://www.vivekananda.co.uk || || Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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