Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 Dear Jairam This is a very interesting post. I would like to respond in details but first May I ask you to give me following two clarifications (1) Why do you think Sri Ramakrishna / Swami Vivekananda or the great Buddha were so much 'against ideas of miracles' ? (2) How do we define a miracle? Is it something that opposes the laws of nature (as we know them) or do they signal some new phenomenon which has yet to be investigated by science? regards jay - " jairam seshadri " <jairamseshadri <Ramakrishna > Tuesday, January 23, 2001 04:38 [ramakrishna] Miracles again... > > What would a miracle be...how would one define a miracle? > > I still dwell on that topic and the general antipathy towards it. I am just > trying to gain an understanding as to why living 'godmen' or even Godmen are > shunned merely because they may reveal the power of " miracles " ? I use the > word without defining it...and i request a definition from members.. > > Would it not be true to say that if we let the mere fact that certain > individuals have the power of performing miracles detract us from going > deeper and finding out the true worth of the individual, that is also just > as much a weakness as dwelling merely and superficially on miracles as the > be all and the end all? > > I air this despite knowing that Sri Ramakrishna, my Guru, so shunned > miracles.. > i want to learn more...so i would appreciate a general response. > js > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 What would a miracle be?...anything or any event that cannot be explained by the laws that we are accustomed to...that would be a miracle ... On Mon, 22 Jan 2001 23:38:06 jairam seshadri wrote: > >What would a miracle be...how would one define a miracle? > >I still dwell on that topic and the general antipathy towards it. I am just >trying to gain an understanding as to why living 'godmen' or even Godmen are >shunned merely because they may reveal the power of " miracles " ? I use the >word without defining it...and i request a definition from members.. > >Would it not be true to say that if we let the mere fact that certain >individuals have the power of performing miracles detract us from going >deeper and finding out the true worth of the individual, that is also just >as much a weakness as dwelling merely and superficially on miracles as the >be all and the end all? > >I air this despite knowing that Sri Ramakrishna, my Guru, so shunned >miracles.. > i want to learn more...so i would appreciate a general response. >js >_______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > Get your small business started at Lycos Small Business at http://www.lycos.com/business/mail.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 23, 2001 Report Share Posted January 23, 2001 --- jairam seshadri <jairamseshadri wrote: > > What would a miracle be...how would one define a > miracle? > I think (someone has already said this) that if we had eyes to see it, all life would be seen as a miracle Auctions - Buy the things you want at great prices. http://auctions./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 Jay... I hope i did not come across as addressing my question to you personally, although i am glad that you did take it up. In any event, I am only trying to clarify matters in my own mind and so i hope you take it in that vein... To answer your questions, answer to the first one is well known. Sri Ramakrishna shunned miracles as they were hurdles in the path of spiritual realisation. Aspirants often get attached to miracles themselves and fail to gain liberation The second question, i had requested members to volunteer what they thought miracles were...from a personal point of view, miracles can mean anything that defies known laws and established norms. that i hope clarifies for you where i am coming from... i look forward to further discussing this... thanks jairam >Dear Jairam > >This is a very interesting post. >I would like to respond in details but first >May I ask you to give me following two clarifications > >(1) Why do you think Sri Ramakrishna / Swami Vivekananda or the >great Buddha were so much 'against ideas of miracles' ? > >(2) How do we define a miracle? Is it something that opposes the >laws of nature (as we know them) or do they signal some new >phenomenon which has yet to be investigated by science? > >regards >jay > > > > > >- > " jairam seshadri " <jairamseshadri ><Ramakrishna > >Tuesday, January 23, 2001 04:38 >[ramakrishna] Miracles again... > > > > > > What would a miracle be...how would one define a miracle? > > > > I still dwell on that topic and the general antipathy towards it. I am >just > > trying to gain an understanding as to why living 'godmen' or even Godmen >are > > shunned merely because they may reveal the power of " miracles " ? I use >the > > word without defining it...and i request a definition from members.. > > > > Would it not be true to say that if we let the mere fact that certain > > individuals have the power of performing miracles detract us from going > > deeper and finding out the true worth of the individual, that is also >just > > as much a weakness as dwelling merely and superficially on miracles as >the > > be all and the end all? > > > > I air this despite knowing that Sri Ramakrishna, my Guru, so shunned > > miracles.. > > i want to learn more...so i would appreciate a general response. > > js > > >_______________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > > > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 Isn't this froman enlightened perspective? One who is liberated and is yet living, and views the world and Maya with wonder, for him or her, everything indeed is a miracle... you are right > > What would a miracle be...how would one define a > > miracle? > > >I think (someone has already said this) that if we had >eyes to see it, all life would be seen as a miracle _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 I think the most important factor that makes 'MIRACLE' a topic of interest is that the very WORD constitutes different interpretations from different people or even the same person may use this WORD in two entirely opposite context. It is due to this reason that we are actually unable to clearly define for ourselves what Miracles mean as this word does just not apply to a single Context. The interpretation is so much varied that the same WORD can be used in Positive as well as Negative context. understanding this is important as we go through the further digging of word 'MIRACLE' and the Context in which they are generally applied. going to the Root i should first ask myself " From where does this word Miracle emerge ? " Simple answer could be from our own Ignorance , some phenomenon which seems beyond our reach or beyond our understanding we call it Miracle , BUT than why do we use statements like 1)Is it not a Miracle that the attitudes of a few men (Ramakrishna, budha) are purifying our minds. 2)or if you are a cricket fan you must have surely said that many times " Indian team is most of the time dependent on Sachins Miracle " Here we understood and also acknowledged the " Miracle " . For we are using this Word in the Reverence of our " Heros " . Because we know that whatever our Heros have contributed or are still contributing is due to there rigorous efforts and greatest of determination in there respective fields. it also leads us to apply that Miracles can only come when one apply best approach towards the subject. Here i hope most of us will justify the use of word Miracles, because we know that such statements can never cause a stir among majority, as they were related to the objective reality, and which can come to upbringing of all if taken in an optimistic manner . Than come some " Complex Miracles " or the " Miracle of higher and that of highest Order " . as the name they are very difficult to comprehend or rathar say incomprehensible. but here also the complexities are of different class. i will further segment it into two by two different examples. 1) " Is our very existence , not a Miracle " . why do we exist , why we did just manifested into objective reality in first place. 2)Is not that LAW that govern us a , " Miracle " . This are the fundamental questions that creates ideas of Miracle. But yes there were few People who comprehended the meaning of this sorts of Miracle like Budha , ramakrishna , jesus etc. Here again i ask a fundamental question to myself was this Miracle an eternal truth , and i could not say No to myself . yes this is eternal truth. But then what is that other Miracle which causes stir in some of us . Like " tantric vidya " , " Black Magic " here this sort of miracle as many great Scholars says are the instruments to comprehend higher order of Miracle. but should not be used as they can cause more damage to you , they can retard your spiritual growth in comprehending Miracle of highest order. But yet there are few Scholars who themselves use this Miracle openly in objective world , i can never grasp what is the theory behind their use of miracle. I would like to ask very strongly that why does the miracle maker of this order are not able to bring uplift of the nation or the poor, the downtrodden , with a tremendous pace yes they have bought the changes but cant they come up with some permanent solution, some permanent theory? . India is filled with such miracle makers who are revealing there miracle for whatever good or selfish reasons , but why are they not able to bring the uplift of the nation as the whole . why they do not go and resolve the kashmir problem why still there is so much poverty in our country. we say " Mahatma Gandhi " as the father of our nation he always spoke of ahimsa , he was also a karma yogi why he was not just able to perform miracle to stop hindu muslim riots at that time. there might be only two reason for that one might be either he didnt wanted to use it as this will bring " long term degradation in the faith of the people " or he was not just good enough to reach that stage and so was a struggler in the spiritual path. although I can never comprehend why the Miracle Maker of highest order wants any of the Godmen to use miracle of this sorts in order to bring salvation. as for dissolving into GREATEST he has given quite straight forward law of bringing into practice simple truths of life but still Thanks to all " miracle makers " whether who supports or do not supports " miracle " of this order for whatever they have done for the humanity in there own ways . Regards rahul > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda >Ramakrishna > " jairam seshadri " <jairamseshadri, " list " ><Ramakrishna >, " Self Knowledge List " <selfknow-l >Re: [ramakrishna] Miracles again... >Tue, 23 Jan 2001 19:33:29 -0000 > >Dear Jairam > >This is a very interesting post. >I would like to respond in details but first >May I ask you to give me following two clarifications > >(1) Why do you think Sri Ramakrishna / Swami Vivekananda or the >great Buddha were so much 'against ideas of miracles' ? > >(2) How do we define a miracle? Is it something that opposes the >laws of nature (as we know them) or do they signal some new >phenomenon which has yet to be investigated by science? > >regards >jay > > > > > >- > " jairam seshadri " <jairamseshadri ><Ramakrishna > >Tuesday, January 23, 2001 04:38 >[ramakrishna] Miracles again... > > > > > > What would a miracle be...how would one define a miracle? > > > > I still dwell on that topic and the general antipathy towards it. I am >just > > trying to gain an understanding as to why living 'godmen' or even Godmen >are > > shunned merely because they may reveal the power of " miracles " ? I use >the > > word without defining it...and i request a definition from members.. > > > > Would it not be true to say that if we let the mere fact that certain > > individuals have the power of performing miracles detract us from going > > deeper and finding out the true worth of the individual, that is also >just > > as much a weakness as dwelling merely and superficially on miracles as >the > > be all and the end all? > > > > I air this despite knowing that Sri Ramakrishna, my Guru, so shunned > > miracles.. > > i want to learn more...so i would appreciate a general response. > > js > > >_______________________ > > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at >http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > > > > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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