Guest guest Posted January 24, 2001 Report Share Posted January 24, 2001 Dear Gomu: I tend to agree completely with your thought... However, for this discussion perhaps we can discuss why acts and events that are outside the " normal " day to day powers of Nature are branded as being " bad " in and of itself for the spiritual path. Would you agree that stopping and looking no further than the actual " miracles " as being the be all and the end all is limiting oneself to the greater possibilities of liberation, which the same individual who is performing the miracles, may well be capable of granting? We brand him or her as a fraud merely because he or she is performing miracles, when HE or SHE may well be an Incarnation...an AVATAR What if the " miracles " are truly miracles?! regards jairam What would a miracle be...how would one define a miracle? > > In my opinion, nothing can be supernatural. Anything that >happens is under the bounds of Nature. We might not have seen >that particular facet of Nature before, or might not be able >explain that facet based on our current knowledge, assumptions >and understanding. Such facets of Nature are refered to as >miracles. There is nothing special about them. They just point >out the limitations of our understanding of Nature; nothing >more. > >With regards, >Gomu. _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 Hi, > However, for this discussion perhaps we can discuss why acts and events that > are outside the " normal " day to day powers of Nature are branded as being > " bad " in and of itself for the spiritual path. It is the nature of the mind to be baffled by something which it cannot explain (ie. miracles). This is as powerful a distraction as any other passion. Hence the antipathy towards it by spiritual masters. Even spiritual masters who display miracles do not teach their disciples that miracles are worth aspiring after. They warn their disciples as vehemently as masters who do not display miracles. Have you heard of a spiritual master who has guided his disciples to attain miracles ? I have not. > Would you agree that stopping and looking no further than the actual > " miracles " as being the be all and the end all is limiting oneself to the > greater possibilities of liberation, which the same individual who is > performing the miracles, may well be capable of granting? We brand him or > her as a fraud merely because he or she is performing miracles, when HE or > SHE may well be an Incarnation...an AVATAR I do not think I am in a position to judge someone to be a fraud or not. If a master displays miracles, I believe he must be having good reasons for that. We may understand it when we become masters ourselves. But, I do not think any master will profess that miracles are the be all and end all. That is what is important. > What if the " miracles " are truly miracles?! What do you mean by truly 'miracles' ? I guess we are not talking about people who perform some tricks to gain popularity. Miracles are something which truly happen at the behest of someone, which you and I do not expect to happen under our own assumptions of 'normal' conditions. A miracle to you and me can be a normal thing to someoneelse. With regards, Gomu. -- ----------------------------- Email: gomu Phone(Off): +91 44 4466448, 4466449 Phone(Res): +91 44 8270104 Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/gokulmuthu/ ----------------------------- It is better to wear out than to rust out. - Swami Vivekananda ----------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 25, 2001 Report Share Posted January 25, 2001 i agree...we are not in disagreement here! From a personal standpoint ( and from what i can gather your thoughts as well), i do believe that to recognise the fact that there can be events and acts that fall outside the purview of our senses is a recognition of a human being's limitations. I agree with you that there are certain acts and events that " baffle the mind " as you have so rightly put it. That very recognition, in my opinion is an acknowledgement of higher powers and an embracing of humility. To say that all that we say and do in the spiritual path must altogether fall within the realm of " Rationale " and within the purview of the senses, is conditioning ourselves for a fall and imposing limitations. as always i am open to being corrected... js >Hi, > > > However, for this discussion perhaps we can discuss why acts and events >that > > are outside the " normal " day to day powers of Nature are branded as >being > > " bad " in and of itself for the spiritual path. > > It is the nature of the mind to be baffled by something which it >cannot >explain (ie. miracles). This is as powerful a distraction as any other >passion. Hence the antipathy towards it by spiritual masters. Even >spiritual >masters who display miracles do not teach their disciples that miracles >are >worth aspiring after. They warn their disciples as vehemently as masters >who do not display miracles. Have you heard of a spiritual master who >has >guided his disciples to attain miracles ? I have not. > > > Would you agree that stopping and looking no further than the actual > > " miracles " as being the be all and the end all is limiting oneself to >the > > greater possibilities of liberation, which the same individual who is > > performing the miracles, may well be capable of granting? We brand him >or > > her as a fraud merely because he or she is performing miracles, when HE >or > > SHE may well be an Incarnation...an AVATAR > > I do not think I am in a position to judge someone to be a fraud or >not. If a master displays miracles, I believe he must be having good >reasons >for that. We may understand it when we become masters ourselves. But, I >do not think any master will profess that miracles are the be all and >end >all. That is what is important. > > > What if the " miracles " are truly miracles?! > > What do you mean by truly 'miracles' ? I guess we are not talking >about people who perform some tricks to gain popularity. Miracles are >something which truly happen at the behest of someone, which you and I >do not expect to happen under our own assumptions of 'normal' >conditions. >A miracle to you and me can be a normal thing to someoneelse. > >With regards, >Gomu. > > >-- >----------------------------- > Email: gomu > Phone(Off): +91 44 4466448, 4466449 > Phone(Res): +91 44 8270104 > Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/gokulmuthu/ >----------------------------- >It is better to wear out than to rust out. - Swami Vivekananda >----------------------------- _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 29, 2001 Report Share Posted January 29, 2001 Hi, > To say that all that we say and do in the spiritual path must altogether > fall within the realm of " Rationale " and within the purview of the senses, > is conditioning ourselves for a fall and imposing limitations. Not so much. Any firm knowledge can be gained only when we move from the known to the unknown, without missing any steps in between. A person cannot have a good understanding of Quantum Mechanics unless he has learnt Newtonian Physics thoroughly and found its limitations, which are filled by Quantum Mechanics. Same rule applies here also. Unless the known is understood thoroughly, you cannot step into the unknown. Also, the process of trying to understand the known thoroughly will kindle the right questions in your mind, which will naturally open the doors to the unknown. A premature and unnatural introduction to advanced concepts will only confuse the mind and will do more harm than good. This is reason why the role of rationality and logic is emphasised so much, not only in science or religion, in every field of knowledge. With regards, Gomu. -- ----------------------------- Email: gomu Phone(Off): +91 44 4466448, 4466449 Phone(Res): +91 44 8270104 Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/gokulmuthu/ ----------------------------- It is better to wear out than to rust out. - Swami Vivekananda ----------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 have i said anything that contradicts your thoughts? if so i stand corrected. but if you read my statement that you have copied on to your message, you will see that i do not disqualify the use of rationale. it says that to " ALTOGETHER " fall within the realm of the senses is folly. as Radhakrishnan said " Jnana is the finger that points to the GOAL/TRUTH and disappears once we advance... " >Hi, > > > To say that all that we say and do in the spiritual path must altogether > > fall within the realm of " Rationale " and within the purview of the >senses, > > is conditioning ourselves for a fall and imposing limitations. > > Not so much. Any firm knowledge can be gained only when we move from >the known to the unknown, without missing any steps in between. A person >cannot have a good understanding of Quantum Mechanics unless he has >learnt >Newtonian Physics thoroughly and found its limitations, which are filled >by Quantum Mechanics. Same rule applies here also. Unless the known is >understood thoroughly, you cannot step into the unknown. Also, the >process >of trying to understand the known thoroughly will kindle the right >questions in your mind, which will naturally open the doors to the >unknown. >A premature and unnatural introduction to advanced concepts will only >confuse the mind and will do more harm than good. This is reason why the >role of rationality and logic is emphasised so much, not only in science >or religion, in every field of knowledge. > >With regards, >Gomu. > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 31, 2001 Report Share Posted January 31, 2001 Hi, > but if you read my statement that you have copied on to your message, you > will see that i do not disqualify the use of rationale. it says that to > " ALTOGETHER " fall within the realm of the senses is folly. Agreed. Swami Vivekananda also has said that religion ultimately transcends logic, but does not ignore logic. So the best bet will be to stick to logic as much as possible and let the transcendence come naturally at the right time. With regards, Gomu. -- ----------------------------- Email: gomu Phone(Off): +91 44 4466448, 4466449 Phone(Res): +91 44 8270104 Webpage: http://www.geocities.com/gokulmuthu/ ----------------------------- It is better to wear out than to rust out. - Swami Vivekananda ----------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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