Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 I would like to contribute to the discussion on miracles. The world as perceived by the senses is driven by Maya and duality - not illusion, but the statement of what is, in this world. This duality means that every cause has an effect which could become a future cause and so on - This is a law which is the law of causation - a similar parallel is Newton's thrid law of every action having an equal and opposite reaction In this framework, a miracle is one which appears to defy the law of cause and effect. We see the effect but apparently no cause and thus are stumped for an explanation. Lord Buddha compared his state of enlightenment to the act of sitting on a higher branch of the tree of life compared to the rest of the people around him. Thus, he was able to see farther and further. He said a bullock cart was coming at them, the rest disbelieved him for they could not see it. Pretty soon the cart turned the corner and came in the field of vision of the rest of the people. Now the people believed Buddha was a miracle worker for he predicted things before it happened! From Buddha's view it was his vantage point that made him know about the cart in advance. Thus what we consider as miracles, perfectly may obey the law of cause and effect for an advanced soul who is able to see both the cause and the effect and thus not a miracle. Another example is that in 1900 Lord Kelvin made the famous remark that " heavier than air machines were impossible " . If he were to see the airplanes today without any addition to his knowledge base he would consider it a miracle. However for us airplanes need not be a miracle as we now understand the laws of fluid mechanics which generate that motion, which are discovered by scientists following Lord Kelvin. Another possible explanation for a miracle is that it does not obey the laws of the world of the senses and the mind but some how this explanation degrades us into powerless people. If as Swamiji says in Raja Yoga that we use the mind to answer the greatest existential questions, how can miracles be, beyond the power of the mind? I would like to continue by trying to posit as to why some god men perform miracles and some others don't... with love sreedhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 Why do some God men perform Miracles and others don't... I find this analogy useful. Consider a pulley which has a mass of 10 on one side and a mass of 6 on the other. It is held at rest initially, and a mass of 4 is added on to the side of 6. The weights balance and the system is at rest. Now leave the system for 1 second before equalising the weights. In this 1 second the system has an accelaration of 4g. It also attains a velocity of 4g. Once the system is balanced the accelaration drops to zero. But the system does not come to rest. It continues to move with a constant velocity of 4g every second. If the weight equalisation occurs at the end of 2 seconds, the system again has an accelaration of zero but now moves with a constant velocity of 8g every second and so on.. If we equate the balancing of weights as realisation, it does not mean that all action ceases after that. Depending on " when " the realisation occurs has an impact on the actions of that soul which are seen in this world. Thus each God man / avatar have their own inscrutable ways of doing things with a reason, best known to themselves. Why is that Thakurji chose not to study (in the worldly sense of college degrees) and attracted everyone to where he stayed and imparted spiritual knowledge to all? Why is that on the contrary, Swamiji mastered the knowledge of the world and aggresively went to all over the world and guided souls? They only know their reasons, which cannot be comprehended by our limited view - All we can say is that they know best. In the same way we would have to view their performing or not performing miracles. When Christ was asked by the nobleman to heal his dying son at Capernaum, Jesus replied with wry humour " Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe " But he added: " Go thy way.Thy son liveth " - John 4:46-54. ( swami Paramahamsa Yogananda's autobiography of an yogi cites this) I would like to conclude by speculating on what our attitude towards miracles and god men performing miracles should be.. love, sreedhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 30, 2001 Report Share Posted January 30, 2001 What Our attitude towards miracles and god men performing miracles should be.. I find this analogy useful. A Mullah was once telling his gathering about Namaaz and its virtues. He however cautioned his audience " Bina Nahane, Namaaz padna harame " (roughly : without bathing, reading namaaz is a sin) A fellow on the road was out of earshot when the Mullah started this sentence. He missed " Bina nahane " and only heard : " Namaaz padna harame " . He went and told every one that he heard the mullah say " Namaaz padna harame " . Our ability to divine motives and explanations of God men performing miracles is like this listener. We see the " Namaaz Padna harame " part in retrospect going over their actions and make judgements. The God men must have had their reasons for performing their miracles. I submit that we can understand their actions only if we know the " Bina nahane " part as well. Shorn of that, our exercise will lead to wrong conclusions. (I sincerely believe that this applies to the author of Kali's Child and his work as well) Isn't the fact that we have this great intricate body to work out our actions a miracle? Is'nt the fact that we wake up day after day after going to sleep a miracle? Who is this " I " in us who dominates us and yet we hardly see? - Is is this not a miracle? Isn't our mind so REAL and TANGIBLE to us and YET not seen/smelt/ touched/heard a miracle? Isn't the fact that the Lord is so compassionate to me despite me not yearning to realise Him THIS very MOMENT a miracle? love, sreedhar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 Enjoyed reading this Sreedhar. I agree with you wholeheartedly. jairam > >I would like to contribute to the discussion >on miracles. > >The world as perceived by the senses is driven >by Maya and duality - not illusion, but the >statement of what is, in this world. > >This duality means that every cause has an effect >which could become a future cause and so on - This >is a law which is the law of causation - a similar >parallel is Newton's thrid law of every action having >an equal and opposite reaction > >In this framework, a miracle is one which appears to >defy the law of cause and effect. We see the effect >but apparently no cause and thus are stumped for an >explanation. > >Lord Buddha compared his state of >enlightenment to the act of sitting on a higher branch >of the tree of life compared to the rest of the people >around him. Thus, he was able to see farther and further. >He said a bullock cart was coming at them, the >rest disbelieved him for they could not see it. Pretty >soon the cart turned the corner and came in the field of >vision of the rest of the people. Now the people believed >Buddha was a miracle worker for he predicted things before it >happened! From Buddha's view it was his vantage point that >made him know about the cart in advance. > >Thus what we consider as miracles, perfectly may obey the law >of cause and effect for an advanced soul who is able >to see both the cause and the effect and thus not a >miracle. Another example is that in 1900 Lord Kelvin made the >famous remark that " heavier than air machines were impossible " . >If he were to see the airplanes today without any addition to his >knowledge base he would consider it a miracle. However for us >airplanes need not be a miracle as we now understand the laws >of fluid mechanics which generate that motion, which are discovered >by scientists following Lord Kelvin. > > >Another possible explanation for a miracle is that it does not >obey the laws of the world of the senses and the mind but some >how this explanation degrades us into powerless people. If as >Swamiji says in Raja Yoga that we use the mind to answer the >greatest existential questions, how can miracles be, beyond the >power of the mind? > >I would like to continue by trying to posit as to why some >god men perform miracles and some others don't... > >with love >sreedhar > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 Well, it is better to stop discussing about theory (i.e what vivekananda and ramakrishna said)and start practising.I think this could be the only solution to all the problems and points you people were discussing.Action matters a lot than mere words. This is not advice.This is because I have seen some people thinking that by discussing about the teachings of these spiritual sages they become spiritual.People become spiritual only through practice not through words. Thank you. Karthik > " jairam seshadri " <jairamseshadri >Ramakrishna >Ramakrishna , sbharath >Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 681 >Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:10:22 -0500 > >Enjoyed reading this Sreedhar. I agree with you wholeheartedly. >jairam > > > > > >I would like to contribute to the discussion > >on miracles. > > > >The world as perceived by the senses is driven > >by Maya and duality - not illusion, but the > >statement of what is, in this world. > > > >This duality means that every cause has an effect > >which could become a future cause and so on - This > >is a law which is the law of causation - a similar > >parallel is Newton's thrid law of every action having > >an equal and opposite reaction > > > >In this framework, a miracle is one which appears to > >defy the law of cause and effect. We see the effect > >but apparently no cause and thus are stumped for an > >explanation. > > > >Lord Buddha compared his state of > >enlightenment to the act of sitting on a higher branch > >of the tree of life compared to the rest of the people > >around him. Thus, he was able to see farther and further. > >He said a bullock cart was coming at them, the > >rest disbelieved him for they could not see it. Pretty > >soon the cart turned the corner and came in the field of > >vision of the rest of the people. Now the people believed > >Buddha was a miracle worker for he predicted things before it > >happened! From Buddha's view it was his vantage point that > >made him know about the cart in advance. > > > >Thus what we consider as miracles, perfectly may obey the law > >of cause and effect for an advanced soul who is able > >to see both the cause and the effect and thus not a > >miracle. Another example is that in 1900 Lord Kelvin made the > >famous remark that " heavier than air machines were impossible " . > >If he were to see the airplanes today without any addition to his > >knowledge base he would consider it a miracle. However for us > >airplanes need not be a miracle as we now understand the laws > >of fluid mechanics which generate that motion, which are discovered > >by scientists following Lord Kelvin. > > > > > >Another possible explanation for a miracle is that it does not > >obey the laws of the world of the senses and the mind but some > >how this explanation degrades us into powerless people. If as > >Swamiji says in Raja Yoga that we use the mind to answer the > >greatest existential questions, how can miracles be, beyond the > >power of the mind? > > > >I would like to continue by trying to posit as to why some > >god men perform miracles and some others don't... > > > >with love > >sreedhar > > > > > >_______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2001 Report Share Posted February 1, 2001 I agree wholeheartedly on Karthikeyan's point about practice of what Thakurji and Swamiji have said. In a list as this one, we need to understand what they said to exchange views and clarify to ourselves as best as we can- practice is a very private matter to each person. Thakurji said that mind is like a piece of white cloth which takes on whatever color of the vat it is dipped in. Hopefully by atleast thinking about these great sages and their teachings, the mind is dipped in the right vat to prepare it to realise Him. love, sreedhar Karthikeyan Chedarampet wrote: > Well, it is better to stop discussing about theory (i.e what vivekananda and > ramakrishna said)and start practising.I think this could be the only > solution to all the problems and points you people were discussing.Action > matters a lot than mere words. > > This is not advice.This is because I have seen some people thinking that by > discussing about the teachings of these spiritual sages they become > spiritual.People become spiritual only through practice not through words. > > Thank you. > > Karthik > > > " jairam seshadri " <jairamseshadri > >Ramakrishna > >Ramakrishna , sbharath > >Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 681 > >Wed, 31 Jan 2001 21:10:22 -0500 > > > >Enjoyed reading this Sreedhar. I agree with you wholeheartedly. > >jairam > > > > > > > > > >I would like to contribute to the discussion > > >on miracles. > > > > > >The world as perceived by the senses is driven > > >by Maya and duality - not illusion, but the > > >statement of what is, in this world. > > > > > >This duality means that every cause has an effect > > >which could become a future cause and so on - This > > >is a law which is the law of causation - a similar > > >parallel is Newton's thrid law of every action having > > >an equal and opposite reaction > > > > > >In this framework, a miracle is one which appears to > > >defy the law of cause and effect. We see the effect > > >but apparently no cause and thus are stumped for an > > >explanation. > > > > > >Lord Buddha compared his state of > > >enlightenment to the act of sitting on a higher branch > > >of the tree of life compared to the rest of the people > > >around him. Thus, he was able to see farther and further. > > >He said a bullock cart was coming at them, the > > >rest disbelieved him for they could not see it. Pretty > > >soon the cart turned the corner and came in the field of > > >vision of the rest of the people. Now the people believed > > >Buddha was a miracle worker for he predicted things before it > > >happened! From Buddha's view it was his vantage point that > > >made him know about the cart in advance. > > > > > >Thus what we consider as miracles, perfectly may obey the law > > >of cause and effect for an advanced soul who is able > > >to see both the cause and the effect and thus not a > > >miracle. Another example is that in 1900 Lord Kelvin made the > > >famous remark that " heavier than air machines were impossible " . > > >If he were to see the airplanes today without any addition to his > > >knowledge base he would consider it a miracle. However for us > > >airplanes need not be a miracle as we now understand the laws > > >of fluid mechanics which generate that motion, which are discovered > > >by scientists following Lord Kelvin. > > > > > > > > >Another possible explanation for a miracle is that it does not > > >obey the laws of the world of the senses and the mind but some > > >how this explanation degrades us into powerless people. If as > > >Swamiji says in Raja Yoga that we use the mind to answer the > > >greatest existential questions, how can miracles be, beyond the > > >power of the mind? > > > > > >I would like to continue by trying to posit as to why some > > >god men perform miracles and some others don't... > > > > > >with love > > >sreedhar > > > > > > > > > >_______________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > > > > _______________________ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 Om Amriteshvaryai Namah Om Namah Shivaya Dear Karthik, you are shurely right when you say its better to practice than to discuss. Disussions just for the sake of talking and and out of the passion of creating clever sentences are mere waste of energy and wont bring you an inch closer to enlightenment. But right action needs right understanding of certain things. Brains, specially of western people, are filled with so many intellectual thoughts that tries to put them off the spiritual path. For that we need to exchange these thoughts with thoughts regarding spiritual topics. And what can be better for this than to talk about the teachings of the great masters ? So let us act, think and talk in the right manner ! Om Shanti Michael Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 I have been a lurker on the list for a couple of months. Regarding the current discussion about talking about what sri Ramakrishna and Sri Swami vivekananda said, I would like to point out to a parable from Sri Ramakrishna. The one in which the ghost rushes to every accident hoping to find another ghost. The same applies in my case. I check my email daily for all your contributions and views. However, I could never come up with any point of my own. I am more like the baby-kitten than the baby-monkey.... Cheers... -Viveka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 2, 2001 Report Share Posted February 2, 2001 Michael, Thanks for the acknowledgement.But western people are sincere in their work.so that itself can lead to some kind of purity in mind. Karthik >Gautamrita >Ramakrishna >Ramakrishna >Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 681 >Fri, 2 Feb 2001 01:52:57 EST > >Om Amriteshvaryai Namah >Om Namah Shivaya > >Dear Karthik, > >you are shurely right when you say its better to practice than to discuss. >Disussions just for the sake of talking and and out of the passion of >creating clever sentences are mere waste of energy and wont bring you an >inch >closer to enlightenment. >But right action needs right understanding of certain things. Brains, >specially of western people, are filled with so many intellectual thoughts >that tries to put them off the spiritual path. For that we need to exchange >these thoughts with thoughts regarding spiritual topics. And what can be >better for this than to talk about the teachings of the great masters ? > >So let us act, think and talk in the right manner ! > >Om Shanti > >Michael > _______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.