Guest guest Posted August 21, 2001 Report Share Posted August 21, 2001 Coming in rather late on the discussion on celibacy, would like to offer Ramakrishna's remark (Gospel, New York edition, p. 220): " Direct the six passions to God. The impulse of lust should be turned into the desire to have intercourse with Atman... " " Being mad for God " must involve that same passion, must it not? Yours, Edith Ramakrishna wrote: > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > ------ > > There are 15 messages in this issue. > > Topics in this digest: > > 1. Re: Celibacy > " Kapil Shukla " <ks3 > 2. Re: Digest Number 877 > alahiry > 3. Re: Digest Number 878 > alahiry > 4. Re: Digest Number 878 > Prashanth Godrehal <gprasha > 5. Celibacy > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > 6. Raja Yoga does not have 'Brahmacharya' !! > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > 7. Celibacy > tomcarr > 8. Brahmacharya, Renunciation, Monk Hood, Monasticism > " ravi menon " <ravi_rmenon > 9. VML-8/21/01 > ananta <sarada > 10. Fw: can you help? > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > 11. Fw: Need explaination on Gita > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > 12. Vedic Verse > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > 13. Re: Celibacy > Robin Hood <robin_u2001 > 14. Celibacy > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > 15. Re: Celibacy > DEVINDER AHUJA <devahuja > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 1 > Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:33:17 +0530 > " Kapil Shukla " <ks3 > Re: Celibacy > > Well yes that is true. The wife would like to have sex so what do you do. Is > celibacy a physical thing? Or is it a state of mind? Can one be a celibate > if he/she has had sex even once. Can that person take up the spiritual life. > To deny sex to your wife is it not injustice and self-deception and > self-centerdness. Why can't one have sex if the other wants it and it is > that persons happiness. Why can't the saint give up his celibacy just to > give away without thinking. Why can't a saint be someone's happiness? When > the spiritual person beilieve's that the body and mind are just MAYA then > why does he care so much about it. What is so big about it? Why can't a > person have sex daily and be free from it. Or regard it as worship. I > personally don't want to have sex because 1) Yes I want to use all those > powers for my work (though I feel why can't I forget about my work and have > sex without any motive and give myself away and melt into someone to be > their happiness) 2) I will not marry and will have no time for sex. I want > to forget about sex and just do some work in this lifetime (if I can, if > Swami Ji wills). > > Please comment. > > KS > > > > > > > > > > R D [sMTP:jaguarxox] > > > Monday, August 20, 2001 9:31 AM > > > Ramakrishna > > > Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 877 > > > > > > To continue with Sreedhar's thoughts on celibacy: > > > > > > Many teachers have tended to take a positive approach > > > toward this subject, including Sri Ramakrishna. You > > > know the parables: > > > > > > 1.The more you move west, the further you are from the > > > east. > > > 2. God is the big magnet, woman (lust) is the small > > > magnet, etc. > > > > > > The more God becomes the center of your life, the > > > further your mind will be from the world. Through > > > meditation the mind and passions are quieted and your > > > energy is directed towards your Ideal instead of > > > outwards. The desire for sensual pleasure is reduced. > > > More and more peace seeps into your mind and body.... > > > This is a natural development when you meditate for a > > > long time, without break, and in all earnestness (to > > > quote Patanjali). > > > > > > Sex isn't THE biggest obstacle- the outward tendency > > > of the mind is the problem. Even if your THINKING > > > lustful thoughts, your mind is restless and agitated > > > and not fit for concentration or meditation. > > > Therefore, these desires must be quieted for the mind > > > to calm down. > > > > > > I think there's a tendency for householders (myself > > > included) to delude themselves that they can " have > > > their cake and eat it too " in regards to sex and > > > spiritual life. But I think the best approach is to > > > seriously practice and let these tendencies fall away > > > on their own. It's not healthy to force yourself to be > > > celibate when you are not ready. When the fruit is > > > ripe, it falls from the tree on it's own accord. When > > > your devotion to the spiritual life becomes firm, > > > these issues will disappear (unless of course your > > > wife is unhappy- she might want you to forget God and > > > NOT look on her as the " Blissful Mother " !) > > > > > > Ravi > > > > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 2 > Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:19:14 EDT > alahiry > Re: Digest Number 877 > > Dear Bradley; Thank you for your reply. My quest for spirituality is at best > on the curious side and In feel would it not be great if could really plunge > in to it, but can't oris not ready to pay the price. Still looking for a > bargain knowing well it does not exist . Spirituality On SALE !!! does not > exist. I am addicted to the life pleasures. It is very much like being a > drug addict , an alcoholic, or a smoker who knows how much better off he will > be if he could only quit his acddiction , in my case the Maya Of Life, but > has hard time doing it. Let me know you E mail if you don't mind. Mine is > " alahiry @aol.com " . > I have ordered the book you suggested. > Thanks again > Anup Lahiry > > [This message contained attachments] > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 3 > Mon, 20 Aug 2001 16:21:59 EDT > alahiry > Re: Digest Number 878 > > Hi Every one; I am really thankful for all the discussion following my > question on " sexuality and spirituality " .Does one " S " exclude the other " S " ?. > I know what I will like to believe! Budhism was frowned upon by Hinuism > because the former demanded renunciation of family life and to become a monk > to achieve Nirvana. It is my understanding that Hinduism claims that you can > realise God from any walk of life including " Grihasth Ashram " doing all the > duties of that ashram! > > Another issue that gets my attention is the word " women " being used almost > synonimously as an obstacle to God conciousness, lust etc. It implies that > only men aspire for God not women, because if they did then men could be an > obstacle or a source of lust for them( I will like to think that we men are > not the only one capable of lusting ). > Hinduism also stresses the " Nar/NARI " cocept that one is not complete > without the other, then why this stress upon the need to leave the other. I > do understand that over indulgence in any aspect of life can keep you from > attaining your goal, by distracting you. The reason,I am going on and on this > subject, is that unless it is also realistically possible for a family man to > achieve God conciousness without giving up the family life then it is just an > empty,aimless mental gymnastic to talk about spirituality and God, for us > family people. > > Anup > > [This message contained attachments] > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 4 > Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:34:53 -0700 (PDT) > Prashanth Godrehal <gprasha > Re: Digest Number 878 > > Greetings!!! > > let me just try explain the way I have understood > for these questions. > > > > I have some follow up questions on celibacy and > > spiritual life following Anup and Brad. > > > > 1) Swami Vivekananda in Raja Yoga says that celibacy > > is a pre requisite to advance > > spiritually. He does not give an " operational > > definition " or does he anywhere else? - is > > abstinence form sex the only requirement? > > Are there others? What about one's thoughts and > > words? > > > > First we have to find out whether celibacy == > brahmacharyA?. brahmacharyA is a prerequistite for > Raja Yoga. Swami Vivekananda might have used word > celibacy for brahmacharyA since there is no direct > translation for brahmacharya in English. And now > commonly everyone belives that celibacy is just > abstaining from Sex where as brahmacharyA has a much > broader meaning and abstaning from sex is just one of > the sAdhana while practicing brahmacharya. > > if we read the commentries of Acharya's or geetha we > will notice that nowhere they mention specifically > abstain from sex, they consider sex is also a sensual > pleasure just like desire for money, for land, fame > etc etc and every where it is said you have to control > these sensual pleasure. In the spiritual journey many > a time SEX will take a back seat in our mind and fame > will be become a biggest hurdle for the progress. And > lots of sAdhaka's succumb to this fame. and Thakur > specifically warns for this. > > Alse the Ashtanga yoga suthras of patanjali says there > are 8 steps for sAdhana " yama(restrints), > niyama(regulations), Asana(postures), > pranayama(control of breath),prathyAhara(restraining > of sense organs), > Dhaarna(contemplation),Dhyaana(meditation) > Samadhi(reconcillation) " > > Here, there is no direct mention of Sex , it comes in > prathyAhara ie restraining of sense organs. Everyone > considers sex as just one more mental desire. May be > in todays world sex has become a biggest hurdle to > spiritual progress. > > ThAkur says > " In one hand we have to hold God and in another hand > the worldly affair, and as soon as worldly affair is > done in both Hands we have to hold God. " > > " This whole world is a lunatic asylum > some people are mad behind money > some are mad behing women > some are mad behind fame > I am mad behind God. " > > if God become's a higest priority in our life, sex, > fame will never even come in mind. > > Hope it helps you!! > > sarvam vasudevamayam jagath > Prashanth > > > > > > > > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger > http://phonecard./ > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 5 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:21:43 +0100 > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > Celibacy > > When studying the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna > > We become aware that the words > Woman and Gold -- Kamini and Kanchan (the literal translation) > Are meant as lust and greed. Sri Ramakrishna used to warn > women about lust in the same manner as he advised men. > > We also see a very cutting remark by Sri Ramakrishna > when one 'Calcutta babu' who was visiting him had responded > to Sri Ramakrishna when asked what he does by saying > " eat, drink and have sex " ......... > > Sri Ramakrishna said: " Very saucy..you belch what you eat.. > A crow feels very proud and struts about while standing on filth! > This was a very cutting remark....no doubt it applies to all of > us who are householders. > > Ramakrishna advised householders: > After the birth of one or two children cultivate a relationship of > spiritual companionship and move away from lust. > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 6 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 00:38:07 +0100 > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > Raja Yoga does not have 'Brahmacharya' !! > > Further to an earlier posting on the list:-- > > <snip> > Also the Ashtanga yoga suthras of patanjali says there > are 8 steps for sAdhana " yama(restrints), > niyama(regulations), Asana(postures), > pranayama(control of breath),prathyAhara(restraining > of sense organs), > Dhaarna(contemplation),Dhyaana(meditation) > Samadhi(reconcillation) " > > Here, there is no direct mention of Sex , it comes in > prathyAhara ie restraining of sense organs. Everyone...... > > <snip> > =======Correction============ > > Raja yoga of Patanjali with eight steps are as follows > > Yama -- (yama includes Satya, Ahimsa, Asteya, Aparigraha and Brahmacharya) > Niyam (niyam includes Sauch, Santosh, Tap, Swadhyaye, and Ishvarpranidhan) > then comes the next six steps...... > Asana > Pranayama > Pratyahara > Dharna > Dhyana > Samadhi > > And on the question of Brahmacharya -- the literal meaning is > " Action that is conducive with the concept of Brahman " ... > Some feel that this definiton gives permission for sex.... > The whole concept of Brahman is to free ourselves from the > mind-body complex and be established in our true nature - Brahman... > Sex on the other hand does not only tie us up more strongly with our > own mind-body complex but encourages us to chase another body too : ) > Is this Brahmacharya? -- promoting the idea of us as being Brahman?? > > : ) > > Hope this helped > jay > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 7 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:26:56 -0000 > tomcarr > Celibacy > > I am usually suspicious of celibacy. So many people > practice celibacy because they have sexual problems that they are > not willing to face. These problems can be guilt and shame about > sex, or fear of sex, or fear of intimacy, or many other kinds of > fear and shame. A person can say they are practicing celibacy for > spiritual growth, when really they are hiding from something that > they can not face. Often people are not even aware of this > themselves. It is sub conscious. > So many spiritual teachers have pretended to be celibate, > but were later exposed as having all kinds of unhealthy sex in > secret. The Catholic Church makes all it's priest be celibate, and > now we find out that many of the priests had forced sex with > children, and many other priests helped them keep it a secret. > I think that for most people a good honest loving sexual > relationship with one person who you truly love is the best thing. > There may be some spiritual experiences that only come to > people who are celibate. I don't know. I know there are many > wonderful people who practice celibacy, and nothing I have said > should be taken as an insult to them. > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 8 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 04:09:08 > " ravi menon " <ravi_rmenon > Brahmacharya, Renunciation, Monk Hood, Monasticism > > Hi Friends > > Please visit the following website > http://www.whiterobedmonks.org/monkway.html , it gives an in-depth view on > the concepts of Renunciation, Monk hood & Monasticism. It an edited > version of the Prologue to a handbook of various monastic traditions, East > and West. The participants include monastics such as Stuart Elkman; Fr. > Gregory Elmer OSB; Pravrajika Atmaprana; and Swamis Brahmeshananda, > Lokeswarananda, Vidyatmananda, Vivekananda, and Swahananda. And of course > there are excerpts from talks with The Great Master - Sri Ramakrishna . > Perhaps one can view Brahmacharya from the point of Renunciation and > having attained Brahman ? transcending not only the mind-body-gender concept > but also time ,space and causality. > > Life and be Merry! > Quiet and be Still > > Peace and Joy > > Ravi > > _______________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 9 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 01:03:59 -0400 > ananta <sarada > VML-8/21/01 > > All science is bound to come to this conclusion in the long run. > Manifestation, and not creation, is the word of science today; and the > Hindu is only glad that what he has been cherishing in his bosom for > ages is going to be taught in more forcible language and with further > light from the latest conclusions of science. > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 10 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:12:10 +0100 > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > Fw: can you help? > > Can any list member help with the following? > You may reply directly or via the list. > > jay > > - > Hanna hanna.hg > vivekananda > Tuesday, August 21, 2001 08:09 > can you help? > > Hello! > I´m a Swedish student doing some research on medical issues and religion. > I have a question that I hope you can help me with: > How would a Hindu think about human organ transplantation? > I would be most grateful if you could respond to this question as soon as possible! > Many thanks in advance, > from Hanna > > [This message contained attachments] > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 11 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:39:14 +0100 > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > Fw: Need explaination on Gita > > Following interesting question has been sent to us: > I have often wondered how this verse would > encourages caste system? > Can any member help? > .......jay > > - > " subashre " <subashre > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > Tuesday, August 21, 2001 09:08 > Need explaination on Gita > > > Hi , > > > > I would to understand what does this sentences mean actual . Kindly > > explain it to me. > > > > " Arjuna, one should not abandon one's duty which attaches > > to from his very birth, even though defective. > >All undertakings, indeed,are tainted with some blemish or > >the other, just as fire is clouded by smoke. " 18/48 > > > > > > Thank you very much > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 12 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 09:48:49 +0100 > " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda > Vedic Verse > > One of the > Classic Vedic Verses..... > > The cosmic soul is truly the whole universe, the immortal source of all > creation, all action, all meditation. Whoever discovers Him, hidden deep > within, cuts through the bonds of ignorance even during his life on > earth. > > Atharva Veda, Mundaka Upanishads 2.1.10 > > ______________________ > ______________________ > > Message: 13 > Tue, 21 Aug 2001 10:07:40 +0100 (BST) > Robin Hood <robin_u2001 > Re: Celibacy > > I think you are talking about Samsara lifestyle. > > Anba > > --- tomcarr wrote: > I am > usually suspicious of celibacy. So > > many people > > practice celibacy because they have sexual problems > > that they are > > not willing to face. These problems can be guilt > > and shame about > > sex, or fear of sex, or fear of intimacy, or many > > other kinds of > > fear and shame. A person can say they are > > practicing celibacy for > > spiritual growth, when really they are hiding from > > something that > > they can not face. Often people are not even aware > > of this > > themselves. It is sub conscious. > > So many spiritual teachers have pretended to > > be celibate, > > but were later exposed as having all kinds of > > unhealthy sex in > > secret. The Catholic Church makes all it's priest > > be celibate, and > > now we find out that many of the priests had forced > > sex with > > children, and many other priests helped them keep it > > a secret. > > I think that for most people a good honest > > loving sexual > > relationship with one person who you truly love is > > the best thing. > > There may be some spiritual experiences that > > only come to > > people who are celibate. I don't know. I know > > there are many > > wonderful people who practice celibacy, and nothing > > I have said > > should be taken as an insult to them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2001 Report Share Posted August 22, 2001 This discussion on the role of Sex in spirituality has invited many viewpoints from our friends. Many have pointed out that all our passions should be directed to God. Neither suppression nor indulgence. Just channelize them properly. Excellent!! Sex is not the only thing to be ridden off in spiritual life. It is just one among the many passions. Getting rid of unripe ego, jealousy, hatred, etc., are still more important. As Thakur has said " if we move towards north, south will leave us of itself. Similarly if we move towards God all these obstacles will be removed effortlessly. " But then one question might arise, in my sadhana to move nearer to God these obstacles prevent me moving further. Whether to get rid of them completely and then move towards God or move nearer to him and then they will vanish altogether. Well, Sincere prayer to Him is the only answer. As far as sex or any other obstacle is concerned, they are not wrong, but the fact is that they keep us strongly attached to the physical plane. They don't let us proceed higher. They are not a sin, but a bondage. Getting convinced of the limitations of the physical pleasures and the infinite scope of the spiritual life will help us immensely. Isn't?? Both the householder and a monk needs renunciation. We have seen in many places in Gospel that Thakur emphasizes the necessity of mental renunciation to all householders that too after getting one or two children. If one wants something higher then one must be ready to pay the right price for it. Isn't?? The " getting rid off " has to be choicelss, effortless and spontaneous. That happens for a Sincere aspirant. The introductory part of the book, " Vedanta to the Western World " , edited by Christopher Isherwood throws more light and gives crystal clear explanation for all these issues. Regards, Uday. --- Edith Tipple <edtipple wrote: > Coming in rather late on the discussion on celibacy, > would like to offer Ramakrishna's > remark (Gospel, New York edition, p. 220): " Direct > the six passions to God. The > impulse of lust should be turned into the desire to > have intercourse with Atman... " > > " Being mad for God " must involve that same passion, > must it not? > Yours, Edith > > Ramakrishna wrote: > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > > Vivekananda Centre London > > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > > ------ > > > > There are 15 messages in this issue. > > > > Topics in this digest: > > > > 1. Re: Celibacy > > " Kapil Shukla " > <ks3 > > 2. Re: Digest Number 877 > > alahiry > > 3. Re: Digest Number 878 > > alahiry > > 4. Re: Digest Number 878 > > Prashanth Godrehal > <gprasha > > 5. Celibacy > > " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda > > 6. Raja Yoga does not have 'Brahmacharya' !! > > " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda > > 7. Celibacy > > tomcarr > > 8. Brahmacharya, Renunciation, Monk Hood, > Monasticism > > " ravi menon " > <ravi_rmenon > > 9. VML-8/21/01 > > ananta <sarada > > 10. Fw: can you help? > > " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda > > 11. Fw: Need explaination on Gita > > " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda > > 12. Vedic Verse > > " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda > > 13. Re: Celibacy > > Robin Hood > <robin_u2001 > > 14. Celibacy > > " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda > > 15. Re: Celibacy > > DEVINDER AHUJA > <devahuja > > > > > ______________________ > > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 1 > > Mon, 20 Aug 2001 15:33:17 +0530 > > " Kapil Shukla " <ks3 > > Re: Celibacy > > > > Well yes that is true. The wife would like to have > sex so what do you do. Is > > celibacy a physical thing? Or is it a state of > mind? Can one be a celibate > > if he/she has had sex even once. Can that person > take up the spiritual life. > > To deny sex to your wife is it not injustice and > self-deception and > > self-centerdness. Why can't one have sex if the > other wants it and it is > > that persons happiness. Why can't the saint give > up his celibacy just to > > give away without thinking. Why can't a saint be > someone's happiness? When > > the spiritual person beilieve's that the body and > mind are just MAYA then > > why does he care so much about it. What is so big > about it? Why can't a > > person have sex daily and be free from it. Or > regard it as worship. I > > personally don't want to have sex because 1) Yes I > want to use all those > > powers for my work (though I feel why can't I > forget about my work and have > > sex without any motive and give myself away and > melt into someone to be > > their happiness) 2) I will not marry and will have > no time for sex. I want > > to forget about sex and just do some work in this > lifetime (if I can, if > > Swami Ji wills). > > > > Please comment. > > > > KS > > > > > > > > > > > > > > R D [sMTP:jaguarxox] > > > > Monday, August 20, 2001 9:31 AM > > > > Ramakrishna > > > > Re: [ramakrishna] Digest Number 877 > > > > > > > > To continue with Sreedhar's thoughts on > celibacy: > > > > > > > > Many teachers have tended to take a positive > approach > > > > toward this subject, including Sri > Ramakrishna. You > > > > know the parables: > > > > > > > > 1.The more you move west, the further you are > from the > > > > east. > > > > 2. God is the big magnet, woman (lust) is the > small > > > > magnet, etc. > > > > > > > > The more God becomes the center of your life, > the > > > > further your mind will be from the world. > Through > > > > meditation the mind and passions are quieted > and your > > > > energy is directed towards your Ideal instead > of > > > > outwards. The desire for sensual pleasure is > reduced. > > > > More and more peace seeps into your mind and > body.... > > > > This is a natural development when you > meditate for a > > > > long time, without break, and in all > earnestness (to > > > > quote Patanjali). > > > > > > > > Sex isn't THE biggest obstacle- the outward > tendency > > > > of the mind is the problem. Even if your > THINKING > > > > lustful thoughts, your mind is restless and > agitated > > > > and not fit for concentration or meditation. > > > > Therefore, these desires must be quieted for > the mind > > > > to calm down. > > > > > > > > I think there's a tendency for householders > (myself > > > > included) to delude themselves that they can > " have > > > > their cake and eat it too " in regards to sex > and > > > > spiritual life. But I think the best approach > is to > > > > seriously practice and let these tendencies > fall away > > > > on their own. It's not healthy to force > yourself to be > > > > celibate when you are not ready. When the > fruit is > > > > ripe, it falls from the tree on it's own > accord. When > > > > your devotion to the spiritual life becomes > firm, > > > > these issues will disappear (unless of course > your > > > > wife is unhappy- she might want you to forget > God and > > > > NOT look on her as the " Blissful Mother " !) > > > > > > > > Ravi > > > > > > > > > ______________________ > > > ______________________ > > > > Message: 2 > > Mon, 20 Aug 2001 11:19:14 EDT > > alahiry > > Re: Digest Number 877 > > > === message truncated === Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Messenger http://phonecard./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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