Guest guest Posted October 21, 2001 Report Share Posted October 21, 2001 - <kcburroughs <Ramakrishna > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No salvation is possible > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as he hankers for worldly > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires regarding food, clothes, > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires and hankerings. For > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires came to my mind.... " > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the second sentence > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " just as he removed many > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might mislead the casual > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One is the suggestion > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I take this to refer to > the fact that as long as there are unspent desires deposited in the > mind as seeds, they are bound to express themselves and have to be > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The second thing is that > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about fulfilling various > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a hubble-bubble,and so > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat on them. > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, being perfect, was in > actuality untouched by desire, how do you interpret this passage? Is > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for some mysterious purpose > of his own? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Kendra An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna 'in context'. He was a person established in God realisation and as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the person (or people) he was speaking to. To some householders who are perhaps burning with desires and felt confused and guilty about lack of spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be bold - go out and fulfil your desires first " . For the serious aspirants who are already making progress in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri Ramakrishna would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. He comments extensively throughout the Gospel that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress in this age are these two desires. How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should handle his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets etc... are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a God man of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may have exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps not recorded or may have been edited out a long time ago. : ) Is there is any profound hidden message associated to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 21, 2001 Report Share Posted October 21, 2001 > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. On this I disagree. I believe that every action of a perfect human being is significant. The limited cannot understand the Unlimited. Still, I might guess that whatever a perfect one does is of benefit to all concerned, or at least to his close disciples whose progress he is guiding. _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Hi all, I have some doubts in this topic too.. If one does leave all desires that one has, then what is the essence of the life that he/she lives..it is like being alive without feelings.. one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and sex..one should not have attachment towards relatives, friends.. then what is the point in one's life..if he/she gives up all desires and just " exists " ? And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy nor sad..He/she is almost numb to everything..! This is one thing I havent been able to understand for long now. ~Seetha Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda@b...> wrote: > > - > <kcburroughs> > <Ramakrishna> > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No salvation is possible > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as he hankers for worldly > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires regarding food, clothes, > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires and hankerings. For > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires came to my mind.... " > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the second sentence > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " just as he removed many > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might mislead the casual > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One is the suggestion > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I take this to refer to > > the fact that as long as there are unspent desires deposited in the > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express themselves and have to be > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The second thing is that > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about fulfilling various > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a hubble-bubble,and so > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat on them. > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, being perfect, was in > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you interpret this passage? Is > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for some mysterious purpose > > of his own? > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Dear Kendra > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna > 'in context'. He was a person established in God realisation and > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the person (or people) > he was speaking to. To some householders who are perhaps > burning with desires and felt confused and guilty about lack of > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be bold - go out > and fulfil your desires first " . > > For the serious aspirants who are already making progress > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri Ramakrishna > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress in this age > are these two desires. > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should handle > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets etc... > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a God man > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may have > exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps not > recorded or may have been edited out a long time ago. : ) > > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Hi all, Even i have the same question as seetha has. Please throw some light on this topic. Amol --- seetha wrote: > Hi all, > I have some doubts in this topic too.. > If one does leave all desires that one has, then > what is the essence > of the life that he/she lives..it is like being > alive without > feelings.. > one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and > sex..one should not have > attachment towards relatives, friends.. > then what is the point in one's life..if he/she > gives up all desires > and just " exists " ? > And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy > nor sad..He/she > is almost numb to everything..! > This is one thing I havent been able to understand > for long now. > > > ~Seetha > > Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda@b...> > wrote: > > > > - > > <kcburroughs> > > <Ramakrishna> > > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No > salvation is > possible > > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as > he hankers for > worldly > > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires > regarding food, clothes, > > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires > and hankerings. For > > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires > came to my mind.... " > > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the > second sentence > > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " > just as he removed > many > > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might > mislead the > casual > > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One > is the suggestion > > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I > take this to refer > to > > > the fact that as long as there are unspent > desires deposited in > the > > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express > themselves and have to be > > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The > second thing is that > > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about > fulfilling various > > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a > hubble-bubble,and > so > > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat > on them. > > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, > being perfect, was > in > > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you > interpret this passage? > Is > > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for > some mysterious > purpose > > > of his own? > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Dear Kendra > > > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri > Ramakrishna > > 'in context'. He was a person established in God > realisation and > > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the > person (or people) > > he was speaking to. To some householders who are > perhaps > > burning with desires and felt confused and guilty > about lack of > > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be > bold - go out > > and fulfil your desires first " . > > > > For the serious aspirants who are already making > progress > > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri > Ramakrishna > > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress > in this age > > are these two desires. > > > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should > handle > > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets > etc... > > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a > God man > > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) > > > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may > have > > exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps > not > > recorded or may have been edited out a long time > ago. : ) > > > > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > > > jay > > > Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 > And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy nor sad..He/she > is almost numb to everything..! > This is one thing I havent been able to understand for long now. I believe Sri Ramakrishna advises not to renounce if you still have desires. You cannot force renunciation. Then it would be dry, as you suggest. It should be a very natural process, in my experience. You just attend to remembering God with love, and gradually those desires will fall off. He does the work of getting rid of your desires--you do nothing. Remember Him whatever you are doing, even while fulfilling your desires. Just keep at the back of your mind that all this belongs to God. Be happy, enjoy your life, accept your unavoidable sufferings with patience (but avoid self-created sufferings), and don't worry. That is my understanding. _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 I wanted to add in connection with Seetha's post--Even in my limited experience, when desires fall away, there is not a vacuum state with no feeling. Instead, the natural bliss of being is there. The life energy starts to flow in new directions, which were blocked before, by those desires. I think there should be no concern about suffering from numbness. Personally I find that trying to withhold certain desires from expression is best. Gradually they get less intense. Sometimes it is not possible to restrain, so one lives with that. I remember a saying of Upasani Maharaj of Sakori: " Make this your mantra: Accept everything that happens. " Of course, people do at times experience numbness or dryness as a phase in spiritual life. But I don't see that arising from the conscious restraint of desires. You may become numb from repressing desires, and that is not a good thing. Neither repression nor indulgence but restraint is what I was taught. _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Seetha- Remember the story of the salt doll? It was used to measure the depth of the ocean. In the same way, when the desires are gone then you will be the salt doll. When the flute is empty, Krishna plays His sweet music through it.... RD --- seetha wrote: > Hi all, > I have some doubts in this topic too.. > If one does leave all desires that one has, then > what is the essence > of the life that he/she lives..it is like being > alive without > feelings.. > one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and > sex..one should not have > attachment towards relatives, friends.. > then what is the point in one's life..if he/she > gives up all desires > and just " exists " ? > And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy > nor sad..He/she > is almost numb to everything..! > This is one thing I havent been able to understand > for long now. > > > ~Seetha > > Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda@b...> > wrote: > > > > - > > <kcburroughs> > > <Ramakrishna> > > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No > salvation is > possible > > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as > he hankers for > worldly > > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires > regarding food, clothes, > > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires > and hankerings. For > > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires > came to my mind.... " > > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the > second sentence > > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " > just as he removed > many > > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might > mislead the > casual > > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One > is the suggestion > > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I > take this to refer > to > > > the fact that as long as there are unspent > desires deposited in > the > > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express > themselves and have to be > > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The > second thing is that > > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about > fulfilling various > > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a > hubble-bubble,and > so > > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat > on them. > > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, > being perfect, was > in > > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you > interpret this passage? > Is > > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for > some mysterious > purpose > > > of his own? > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Dear Kendra > > > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri > Ramakrishna > > 'in context'. He was a person established in God > realisation and > > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the > person (or people) > > he was speaking to. To some householders who are > perhaps > > burning with desires and felt confused and guilty > about lack of > > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be > bold - go out > > and fulfil your desires first " . > > > > For the serious aspirants who are already making > progress > > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri > Ramakrishna > > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress > in this age > > are these two desires. > > > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should > handle > > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets > etc... > > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a > God man > > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) > > > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may > have > > exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps > not > > recorded or may have been edited out a long time > ago. : ) > > > > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > > > jay > > > Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2001 Report Share Posted October 22, 2001 Seetha, Being desireless means being 'not attached'. Thakur says at some place, be like a maid servant in this world. She does the job well but knows for sure that the home, utensils etc do not belong to her. It is this possessiveness or ownership concept that one has to get rid of. Every thing belongs to God we are liek maid servant here. By all means have good friends, food,clothes etc but do not get attached. Hard to explain isn't it? I would suggest that you read Vinoba's 'Talks on Gita " published by Oxford Uni Press or the original Marathi " Gita Pravachane' fro a lucid explanation of your question. Regards Milind Sathye seetha [seetha] Tuesday, 23 October 2001 12:25 AM Ramakrishna Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires Hi all, I have some doubts in this topic too.. If one does leave all desires that one has, then what is the essence of the life that he/she lives..it is like being alive without feelings.. one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and sex..one should not have attachment towards relatives, friends.. then what is the point in one's life..if he/she gives up all desires and just " exists " ? And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy nor sad..He/she is almost numb to everything..! This is one thing I havent been able to understand for long now. ~Seetha Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda@b...> wrote: > > - > <kcburroughs> > <Ramakrishna> > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No salvation is possible > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as he hankers for worldly > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires regarding food, clothes, > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires and hankerings. For > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires came to my mind.... " > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the second sentence > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " just as he removed many > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might mislead the casual > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One is the suggestion > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I take this to refer to > > the fact that as long as there are unspent desires deposited in the > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express themselves and have to be > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The second thing is that > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about fulfilling various > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a hubble-bubble,and so > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat on them. > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, being perfect, was in > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you interpret this passage? Is > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for some mysterious purpose > > of his own? > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Dear Kendra > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna > 'in context'. He was a person established in God realisation and > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the person (or people) > he was speaking to. To some householders who are perhaps > burning with desires and felt confused and guilty about lack of > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be bold - go out > and fulfil your desires first " . > > For the serious aspirants who are already making progress > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri Ramakrishna > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress in this age > are these two desires. > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should handle > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets etc... > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a God man > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may have > exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps not > recorded or may have been edited out a long time ago. : ) > > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > jay Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah Vivekananda Centre London http://www.vivekananda.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Namaste Milindji has put it very well. Desirelessness is actually not being bound by the desires. The attachment may not be there. This sounds more practical. Moreover, Lord Krishna in Bhagavad Gita mentions that he is the desire which is not contrary to Dharma. Therefore, fulfilling Dharmic desires may be after all worshipping the Lord. Thanks. Kathi > > Sathye, Milind [sMTP:MilindS] > Tuesday, October 23, 2001 5:51 AM > 'Ramakrishna ' > RE: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > Seetha, > Being desireless means being 'not attached'. Thakur says at some place, > be > like a maid servant in this world. She does the job well but knows for > sure > that the home, utensils etc do not belong to her. > It is this possessiveness or ownership concept that one has to get rid of. > Every thing belongs to God we are liek maid servant here. By all means > have > good friends, food,clothes etc but do not get attached. Hard to explain > isn't it? I would suggest that you read Vinoba's 'Talks on Gita " published > by Oxford Uni Press or the original Marathi " Gita Pravachane' fro a lucid > explanation of your question. > Regards > Milind Sathye > > > seetha [seetha] > Tuesday, 23 October 2001 12:25 AM > Ramakrishna > Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > Hi all, > I have some doubts in this topic too.. > If one does leave all desires that one has, then what is the essence > of the life that he/she lives..it is like being alive without > feelings.. > one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and sex..one should not have > attachment towards relatives, friends.. > then what is the point in one's life..if he/she gives up all desires > and just " exists " ? > And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy nor sad..He/she > is almost numb to everything..! > This is one thing I havent been able to understand for long now. > > > ~Seetha > > Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda@b...> > wrote: > > > > - > > <kcburroughs> > > <Ramakrishna> > > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No salvation is > possible > > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as he hankers for > worldly > > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires regarding food, clothes, > > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires and hankerings. For > > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires came to my mind.... " > > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the second sentence > > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " just as he removed > many > > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might mislead the > casual > > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One is the suggestion > > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I take this to refer > to > > > the fact that as long as there are unspent desires deposited in > the > > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express themselves and have to be > > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The second thing is that > > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about fulfilling various > > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a hubble-bubble,and > so > > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat on them. > > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, being perfect, was > in > > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you interpret this passage? > Is > > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for some mysterious > purpose > > > of his own? > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Dear Kendra > > > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna > > 'in context'. He was a person established in God realisation and > > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the person (or people) > > he was speaking to. To some householders who are perhaps > > burning with desires and felt confused and guilty about lack of > > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be bold - go out > > and fulfil your desires first " . > > > > For the serious aspirants who are already making progress > > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri Ramakrishna > > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress in this age > > are these two desires. > > > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should handle > > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets etc... > > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a God man > > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) > > > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may have > > exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps not > > recorded or may have been edited out a long time ago. : ) > > > > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > > > jay > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Dear Seetha I do not know if this is directly related to desires. But, I remember an anecdote and a " catch " in it. Narada asked Valmiki (in his purvashrama as a hunter) to repeat " MARA " (he could not pronounce the sweet sound of RAMA) sitting at one place. It is told that he did not ask Narada (his Guru) any of the questions like: 1. How many times should I repeat this? 2. How long will this go on? 3. When will you come back to relieve me? 4. What is the result of this repetition? and so on..... We already have one of the three important prerequisites, that is Manava (human) janma (birth). Two other things that we need are a Guru and the desire (not to be equated with other desires like those for food, money etc.) to be liberated (or desire to be free, or desire to know who we really are.... -- technically called Mumukshuktva -- I am sorry for the poor translation of this great sankrit word and idea). Once the other two are there, our " buddhi " (intellect) is surrendered to our Guru and all desires, indeed the world itself drops off from us. Warm regards Uma seetha [seetha] Monday, October 22, 2001 7:55 PM Ramakrishna Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires Hi all, I have some doubts in this topic too.. If one does leave all desires that one has, then what is the essence of the life that he/she lives..it is like being alive without feelings.. one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and sex..one should not have attachment towards relatives, friends.. then what is the point in one's life..if he/she gives up all desires and just " exists " ? And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy nor sad..He/she is almost numb to everything..! This is one thing I havent been able to understand for long now. ~Seetha Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda@b...> wrote: > > - > <kcburroughs> > <Ramakrishna> > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No salvation is possible > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as he hankers for worldly > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires regarding food, clothes, > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires and hankerings. For > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires came to my mind.... " > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the second sentence > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " just as he removed many > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might mislead the casual > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One is the suggestion > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I take this to refer to > > the fact that as long as there are unspent desires deposited in the > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express themselves and have to be > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The second thing is that > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about fulfilling various > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a hubble-bubble,and so > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat on them. > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, being perfect, was in > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you interpret this passage? Is > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for some mysterious purpose > > of his own? > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Dear Kendra > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna > 'in context'. He was a person established in God realisation and > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the person (or people) > he was speaking to. To some householders who are perhaps > burning with desires and felt confused and guilty about lack of > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be bold - go out > and fulfil your desires first " . > > For the serious aspirants who are already making progress > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri Ramakrishna > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress in this age > are these two desires. > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should handle > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets etc... > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a God man > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may have > exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps not > recorded or may have been edited out a long time ago. : ) > > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > jay Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah Vivekananda Centre London http://www.vivekananda.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 It's very interesting and thought provoking to read various views regarding 'Desires'. I would like to share my views. We are very familiar with Girish Chandra Ghosh, how he was at his initial stage when he met Sri Ramakrishna, how he kept his habits and continue doing it, but with a new attitude, as an offering to the Lord. His sincerity and his attitude after meeting Sri Ramakrishna gradually lifted him up and made him a gem of a person. He never gave up anything. He satisfied his desires, but with a new attitude of offering it to the Lord. He was very sincere. I think it's a good lesson and this throws more light on this topic of discussion. Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Dear Seetha Giving up desires should be interpreted as giving up the slavery to desires. Take some wordly examples of how desires are harmful (example of tyranny of desires) even to be efficient in this world: - I eat sweets even though I am overweight (desire) - I go to a movie although I have my exams (desire) - I dont exercise my body because I feel like sleeping late in the morning (desire) - I have a night out although I know that I need to be fresh for an important assignment the next day (desire) - I am working on something important but I am thinking of my girlfriend (desire) Now in the above situations who is the master ? Me or the desires? Enjoy and make merry in life but you be the master and not the servant of desires. Learn to give up the most pleasurable activity when duty demands. And consider all work that is enjoined upon you as duty towards God. Make God the boss of your life and whatever enjoyment comes ETHICALLY is a " Prasad " whether it is money, sex, position ,name and fame. Lord Krishna advises in Chapter 3 to " eat " the remnants of sacrifice. This means that all in the course of working tirelessly in this world with the spirit of sacrifice whatever comes to you (joys, pleasures and pain) is the remnant of sacrifice which is fit to be consumed. However the person who " cooks " for himself as the Lord says (meaning works for selfish motives) is a thief according to the Lord. He takes from the world without giving in return since all his work is with selfish motives prompted by desires. IT IS THIS DESIRE THAT YOU SHOULD GIVE UP. Is it cleat to you ? Pranams Dev Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Hi all, Thanks to everybody for sharing their thoughts on this. It does help me in getting a better picture. It is easier to understand things when we consider the ownership concept.. I shall try to get hold of a copy of " talks on gita " . ~Seetha Ramakrishna, " Sathye, Milind " <MilindS@m...> wrote: > Seetha, > Being desireless means being 'not attached'. Thakur says at some place, be > like a maid servant in this world. She does the job well but knows for sure > that the home, utensils etc do not belong to her. > It is this possessiveness or ownership concept that one has to get rid of. > Every thing belongs to God we are liek maid servant here. By all means have > good friends, food,clothes etc but do not get attached. Hard to explain > isn't it? I would suggest that you read Vinoba's 'Talks on Gita " published > by Oxford Uni Press or the original Marathi " Gita Pravachane' fro a lucid > explanation of your question. > Regards > Milind Sathye > > > seetha@m... [seetha@m...] > Tuesday, 23 October 2001 12:25 AM > Ramakrishna > Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > Hi all, > I have some doubts in this topic too.. > If one does leave all desires that one has, then what is the essence > of the life that he/she lives..it is like being alive without > feelings.. > one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and sex..one should not have > attachment towards relatives, friends.. > then what is the point in one's life..if he/she gives up all desires > and just " exists " ? > And if one gives up all desires, he is neither happy nor sad..He/she > is almost numb to everything..! > This is one thing I havent been able to understand for long now. > > > ~Seetha > > Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda@b...> > wrote: > > > > - > > <kcburroughs> > > <Ramakrishna> > > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No salvation is > possible > > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as he hankers for > worldly > > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires regarding food, clothes, > > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires and hankerings. For > > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires came to my mind.... " > > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed the second sentence > > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " just as he removed > many > > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought might mislead the > casual > > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. One is the suggestion > > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I take this to refer > to > > > the fact that as long as there are unspent desires deposited in > the > > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express themselves and have to be > > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The second thing is that > > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set about fulfilling various > > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, a hubble-bubble,and > so > > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and spat on them. > > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, being perfect, was > in > > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you interpret this passage? > Is > > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for some mysterious > purpose > > > of his own? > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > Dear Kendra > > > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna > > 'in context'. He was a person established in God realisation and > > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to the person (or people) > > he was speaking to. To some householders who are perhaps > > burning with desires and felt confused and guilty about lack of > > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: " Be bold - go out > > and fulfil your desires first " . > > > > For the serious aspirants who are already making progress > > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri Ramakrishna > > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual progress in this age > > are these two desires. > > > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should handle > > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets etc... > > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a God man > > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : ) > > > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may have > > exhibited similar whims too but these were perhaps not > > recorded or may have been edited out a long time ago. : ) > > > > Is there is any profound hidden message associated > > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > > > jay > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Hi everybody, Thanks for your enlightening views on the Desires. I have another question. Is it good to make material progress & strive to get best in this world. If yes, with the current cut-throat competition wherein people work hard with intense materialistic desires, With what desires, intensity & intentions in mind should he strive & make progress. Amol --- seetha wrote: > Hi all, > Thanks to everybody for sharing their thoughts on > this. It does help > me in getting a better picture. > It is easier to understand things when we consider > the ownership > concept.. > > I shall try to get hold of a copy of " talks on > gita " . > > ~Seetha > > Ramakrishna, " Sathye, Milind " > <MilindS@m...> wrote: > > Seetha, > > Being desireless means being 'not attached'. > Thakur says at some > place, be > > like a maid servant in this world. She does the > job well but knows > for sure > > that the home, utensils etc do not belong to her. > > It is this possessiveness or ownership concept > that one has to get > rid of. > > Every thing belongs to God we are liek maid > servant here. By all > means have > > good friends, food,clothes etc but do not get > attached. Hard to > explain > > isn't it? I would suggest that you read Vinoba's > 'Talks on Gita " > published > > by Oxford Uni Press or the original Marathi " Gita > Pravachane' fro a > lucid > > explanation of your question. > > Regards > > Milind Sathye > > > > > > seetha@m... [seetha@m...] > > Tuesday, 23 October 2001 12:25 AM > > Ramakrishna > > Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > Hi all, > > I have some doubts in this topic too.. > > If one does leave all desires that one has, then > what is the essence > > of the life that he/she lives..it is like being > alive without > > feelings.. > > one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and > sex..one should not > have > > attachment towards relatives, friends.. > > then what is the point in one's life..if he/she > gives up all desires > > and just " exists " ? > > And if one gives up all desires, he is neither > happy nor sad..He/she > > is almost numb to everything..! > > This is one thing I havent been able to understand > for long now. > > > > > > ~Seetha > > > > Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda@b...> > > wrote: > > > > > > - > > > <kcburroughs> > > > <Ramakrishna> > > > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > > > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No > salvation is > > possible > > > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as > he hankers for > > worldly > > > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires > regarding food, > clothes, > > > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires > and hankerings. > For > > > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires > came to my > mind.... " > > > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed > the second sentence > > > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " > just as he removed > > many > > > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought > might mislead the > > casual > > > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. > One is the > suggestion > > > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I > take this to refer > > to > > > > the fact that as long as there are unspent > desires deposited in > > the > > > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express > themselves and have to > be > > > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The > second thing is > that > > > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set > about fulfilling > various > > > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, > a > hubble-bubble,and > > so > > > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and > spat on them. > > > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, > being perfect, > was > > in > > > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you > interpret this > passage? > > Is > > > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for > some mysterious > > purpose > > > > of his own? > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Dear Kendra > > > > > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > > > > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri > Ramakrishna > > > 'in context'. He was a person established in > God realisation and > > > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to > the person (or > people) > > > he was speaking to. To some householders who are > perhaps > > > burning with desires and felt confused and > guilty about lack of > > > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: > " Be bold - go out > > > and fulfil your desires first " . > > > > > > For the serious aspirants who are already making > progress > > > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri > Ramakrishna > > > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > > > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > > > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual > progress in this age > > > are these two desires. > > > > > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should > handle > > > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets > etc... > > > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a > God man > > > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : > ) > > > > > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may > have > > > exhibited similar whims too but these were > perhaps not > > > recorded or may have been edited out a long time > ago. : ) > > > > > > Is there is any profound hidden message > associated > > > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > > > > > jay > > > > > > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > === message truncated === Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Dear All, I think that absence of desires does not imply absence of experience or absence of emotions. I may like eating sweets, and if someone gives me a sweet, I would relish it. But I would not crave for another. That is the essence of philosophy, I believe. Live in the present, neither in the past, nor the future. One may argue that sweetness and likes/dislikes are a product of memory. Yes, indeed. As long as this body is, even a god-realised person is bound by the laws of the body. So, even he (apparently) has memories and likes/dislikes. So Sri Ramkrishna was known to like certain kinds of foods, etc. But, he is Sri Ramkrishna for us. From his standpoint, there is, probably, no such individual. So, its we who perceive the likes/dislikes. Regards Sanjay Chakravarty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Dear Amol There is no contradiction between the material and spiritual. It is very important to understand this. In this cut throat world if you want success and peace of mind at the same time dedicate all efforts to GOD and work with a single minded purpose of doing an excellent job so that he is pleased. " Skill in action is Yoga " says Lord Krishna in Gita. If you get " involved and attached " in the cut throat competition you will be too sapped of energy to enjoy your success. Even if you succeed in the wordly sense you will sacrifice your health and peace of mind if you do not work in the spirit of dedication. Work dedicated to God becomes blessed. Success is the natural outcome in the long run. Regards Dev Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Namaste, Another way of looking at it is to remember the very last verse of the Gita: yatra yogeshvaraH kR^ishNo yatra paartho dhanurdharaH . tatra shriirvijayo dhR^itirdhruvo niitirmatirmama .. Wherever there is [the Spirit of] of Krishna, the perfect Yogi, and [the Energy of] Arjuna, the perfect Archer, there shall be wealth, victory, perseverance, and righteousness. In other words, whatever results from this combination defines the true 'Dharma', no matter how the world defines success. Regards, Sunder Ramakrishna, DEVINDER AHUJA <devahuja> wrote: > Dear Amol > > There is no contradiction between the material and > spiritual. It is very important to understand this. > > In this cut throat world if you want success and peace > of mind at the same time dedicate all efforts to GOD > and work with a single minded purpose of doing an > excellent job so that he is pleased. " Skill in action > is Yoga " says Lord Krishna in Gita. > > If you get " involved and attached " in the cut > throat competition you will be too sapped of energy to > enjoy your success. Even if you succeed in the wordly > sense you will sacrifice your health and peace of mind > if you do not work in the spirit of dedication. > > Work dedicated to God becomes blessed. Success is the > natural outcome in the long run. > > Regards > > Dev > > > > > > Make a great connection at Personals. > http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Namaste, The very word 'moksha' [an acronym for 'moha + kshaya'] means absence of desire. If one aspires to that aim during this very life, there is no other way! The whole Gita is a lesson or series of lessons to achieve the state of 'sthitapraj~na', 'guNaatiita', and yet 'sarvabhuutahite rataaH'. In simple terms, whatever 'binds' one to one's body, mind, ego, can be defined as desire. One is a jiivan-mukta when these bondages are snapped. Swamiji's " Song of the Sanyasin " will give an idea of what that state is like. Regards, Sunder Ramakrishna, " Sanjay Chakravarty " <sanjaych@i...> wrote: > Dear All, > > I think that absence of desires does not imply absence of experience or > absence of emotions. I may like eating sweets, and if someone gives me a > sweet, I would relish it. But I would not crave for another. That is the > essence of philosophy, I believe. Live in the present, neither in the past, > nor the future. > > One may argue that sweetness and likes/dislikes are a product of memory. > Yes, indeed. As long as this body is, even a god-realised person is bound by > the laws of the body. So, even he (apparently) has memories and > likes/dislikes. So Sri Ramkrishna was known to like certain kinds of foods, > etc. But, he is Sri Ramkrishna for us. From his standpoint, there is, > probably, no such individual. So, its we who perceive the likes/dislikes. > > Regards > Sanjay Chakravarty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 23, 2001 Report Share Posted October 23, 2001 Amol Yes it surely is. Dharma. Artha, Kama and Moksha are the four purushartha's that Veda's teach us. SO do try to excel in material progress (artha) by fair means (dharma) enjoy kama (sense objects) within bounds prescribed by (Dharma) and always keep in mind that you are just doing the Master's work (karma yoga) which will eventually lead to Moksha (salvation/realisation of truth). So whatever you do put in your best but in the process don't get attached and always remind yourself that it Master's work that is being done 'not mine' . God bless every one Milind Sathye amol bhide [amol_bhide] Wednesday, 24 October 2001 12:47 AM Ramakrishna Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires Hi everybody, Thanks for your enlightening views on the Desires. I have another question. Is it good to make material progress & strive to get best in this world. If yes, with the current cut-throat competition wherein people work hard with intense materialistic desires, With what desires, intensity & intentions in mind should he strive & make progress. Amol --- seetha wrote: > Hi all, > Thanks to everybody for sharing their thoughts on > this. It does help > me in getting a better picture. > It is easier to understand things when we consider > the ownership > concept.. > > I shall try to get hold of a copy of " talks on > gita " . > > ~Seetha > > Ramakrishna, " Sathye, Milind " > <MilindS@m...> wrote: > > Seetha, > > Being desireless means being 'not attached'. > Thakur says at some > place, be > > like a maid servant in this world. She does the > job well but knows > for sure > > that the home, utensils etc do not belong to her. > > It is this possessiveness or ownership concept > that one has to get > rid of. > > Every thing belongs to God we are liek maid > servant here. By all > means have > > good friends, food,clothes etc but do not get > attached. Hard to > explain > > isn't it? I would suggest that you read Vinoba's > 'Talks on Gita " > published > > by Oxford Uni Press or the original Marathi " Gita > Pravachane' fro a > lucid > > explanation of your question. > > Regards > > Milind Sathye > > > > > > seetha@m... [seetha@m...] > > Tuesday, 23 October 2001 12:25 AM > > Ramakrishna > > Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > Hi all, > > I have some doubts in this topic too.. > > If one does leave all desires that one has, then > what is the essence > > of the life that he/she lives..it is like being > alive without > > feelings.. > > one shouldnt have desires for food, cloth and > sex..one should not > have > > attachment towards relatives, friends.. > > then what is the point in one's life..if he/she > gives up all desires > > and just " exists " ? > > And if one gives up all desires, he is neither > happy nor sad..He/she > > is almost numb to everything..! > > This is one thing I havent been able to understand > for long now. > > > > > > ~Seetha > > > > Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " > <vivekananda@b...> > > wrote: > > > > > > - > > > <kcburroughs> > > > <Ramakrishna> > > > Sunday, October 21, 2001 06:39 > > > [sri Ramakrishna] Desires > > > > > > > > > > On p. 534 of the Gospels, the Master says: " No > salvation is > > possible > > > > for a man as long as be has desire, as long as > he hankers for > > worldly > > > > things. Therefore fulfil all your desires > regarding food, > clothes, > > > > and sex. ... It is not good to cherish desires > and hankerings. > For > > > > that reason I used to fulfil whatever desires > came to my > mind.... " > > > > In the abridged edition, Swami N removed > the second sentence > > > > above, " Therefore fulfil all your desires... " > just as he removed > > many > > > > other passages that, I suppose, he thought > might mislead the > > casual > > > > reader. In any case, I see two things here. > One is the > suggestion > > > > that " you " should fulfill all your desires. I > take this to refer > > to > > > > the fact that as long as there are unspent > desires deposited in > > the > > > > mind as seeds, they are bound to express > themselves and have to > be > > > > exhuasted before one begins to seek God. The > second thing is > that > > > > Ramakrishna is saying that he himself set > about fulfilling > various > > > > whimsical desires--for sweets, fancy clothing, > a > hubble-bubble,and > > so > > > > on. Then he renounced all those objects and > spat on them. > > > > If we take it for granted that Ramakrishna, > being perfect, > was > > in > > > > actuality untouched by desire, how do you > interpret this > passage? > > Is > > > > he merely acting the part of a " desirer " for > some mysterious > > purpose > > > > of his own? > > > > > > > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > > > Dear Kendra > > > > > > An interesting observation regarding 'desires'. > > > > > > We have to be careful to read the Gospel of Sri > Ramakrishna > > > 'in context'. He was a person established in > God realisation and > > > as such would give 'perfect advice' suited to > the person (or > people) > > > he was speaking to. To some householders who are > perhaps > > > burning with desires and felt confused and > guilty about lack of > > > spiritual progress ... I suppose he would say: > " Be bold - go out > > > and fulfil your desires first " . > > > > > > For the serious aspirants who are already making > progress > > > in spiritual life, I suppose the advice Sri > Ramakrishna > > > would give would be :- Conquer Greed and Lust. > > > He comments extensively throughout the Gospel > > > that the greatest obstacles to spiritual > progress in this age > > > are these two desires. > > > > > > How a personality like Sri Ramakrishna should > handle > > > his own whimsical desires, like eating sweets > etc... > > > are beyond me. It just brings a smile to think a > God man > > > of this stature 'mucks' about in this manner : > ) > > > > > > I strongly suspect that the earlier God men may > have > > > exhibited similar whims too but these were > perhaps not > > > recorded or may have been edited out a long time > ago. : ) > > > > > > Is there is any profound hidden message > associated > > > to these innocent antics? .....I doubt it. > > > > > > jay > > > > > > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > === message truncated === Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah Vivekananda Centre London http://www.vivekananda.co.uk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2001 Report Share Posted October 24, 2001 One more thing regarding the desires discussion. As a friend asked whether one would become dry without desires... after enlightenment, Ramana Maharshi says, " There won't be the " I " to desire after enlightenment " . God fills in the entire being then, and each and every action has a significance (atleast for the one who is physically near to them). Personally I've got (am getting) lot of guidance, motivation, & inspiration from our friends in this list. Thanks & Salutations to all. - Uday. Make a great connection at Personals. http://personals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 24, 2001 Report Share Posted October 24, 2001 The different perspectives expressed on this thread have been quite interesting. My thought in connection with amol bhide's post on material striving: I assume that I either have material success in my currently ripening karma or not. I feel there is no harm in my trying to earn more, in an honest way, if I feel prompted to strive for that. If I don't succeed--if it is not in my destiny--then I am bound to accept that outcome as His will. I can dedicate my poverty as well as my wealth to God. _______ Get your free @ address at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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