[Sri Ramakrishna] Regarding Celibacy and Renounciation!!

November 22, 2001

> if every human in this world begins to feel that he/she

> has to be celibate to realize God, then there shall be

> no continuance of humanity.

The chances of this happening are zero, because only a few really want God.

Neither will the whole of human life come to a standstill, simply because, as

Lord Krishna says, you cannot refrain from physical and mental activity, which

is done by the three gunas--we, as the false ego, are not the agent of action.

God does everything, God is everything, and there is nothing to worry about and

no one to do the worrying except God Himself. Sri Ramakrishna says: " God has put

you in the world. What can you do about it? Resign everything to Him. Surrender

yourself at His feet. Then there will be no more confusion. Then you will

realize that it is God who does everything. "

_______

Get your free @ address at

November 22, 2001

In a message dated 01-11-22 09:36:56 EST, mechsv writes:

<< But here we see that although our

goal of realizing God by being celibates is noble, >>

The discussions on celibacy are usually lively. Tho, I must say I always

find them to be a bit one-sided, always from the male perspective. I for one

do not believe that celibacy is necessary to realize god (tho I personally

have been celibate for nearly 20 years). There have been many realized souls

who were not celibate.

To atempt celibacy while there is still desire is dangerous. It then becomes

mere supression and that which is supressed only becomes intensified.

However, even the desire falls away once one realizes god....as they say.

Remember celibacy is not only refraining from the physical but also the

mental. Not so easy the mental.

I do think that celibacy is much easier for a woman than for a man. Just my

personal opinion.

In Vedanta you find all sorts of scientific explanations of why celibacy.

The whole ojas being stored up and channeled upward, and how depleting it an

incuberance. However...what of those who SUDDENLY realized god through god's

grace, not celibate at the time of their realization? Who realize god

through other means such as devotion, meditation, and not celibate? You see,

I think that ones mental attitude towards god, ones mental attitude toward

the physical act (whether it is entered into out of love, or entered into

solely for physical gratification) is what is more important. I have known

people who were celibate yet total asses, selfish, arrogant, obstinate and

pretentious. What makes one spiritual is not whether you are celibate or

not, but how you live your life. Are you compassionate, giving, selfless,

large-hearted and caring for others? If you don't have these qualities, then

being celibate will have little affect on you.

Sue

November 22, 2001

Srikanth

Interesting questions. I have attempted a reply.

Welcome to the group

Q1: Probably there is some confusion about celibacy and sanyasa (complete

renunciation).

Our scriptures do say that intimate relations for procreation are 'Grihasta

dharma', what they abhor is such relations only for sense pleasures. It is

like eating for survival and eating for pleasure. We know what happens when

we eat for pleasure alone Or as a science student you definitely know.

Q2: Renouncing the world does not mean stop doing your duty. It means

exactly opposite. DO your duty with all thy heart and soul in it but

renouncing the 'ego' ( I am the doer attitude). Work like a maid servant in

this world said Ramakrishna. Do your work deligently but never assume

doership, never crave for fruits. SO nicely said by Krishna ' Karmani eva

adhikaraha te ma falesu kadachan! Whether one accepts it or not, in reality

life is exactly about this.

Q3: Those who have completely renounced the world are not a 'burden' on the

society. They are like lamp post to which we should look to. They are

spiritual workers for the society. Look at the work the monks in

Ramakrishan order do. They run hospitals, schools,whenever there is any

natural calamity they are first to rush, etc etc. Look at the monumental

work of Pandurang Sastri Athavale (Swadhyaya Parivar). SO these spiritual

workers keep our senses. They remind us that greed, passion, and the other

shad ripus are not unconquerable. They thus work as our 'moral regulators'.

Hope this helps.

Dr Milind Sathye

Srikanth Srigiriraju [mechsv]

Friday, 23 November 2001 1:14 AM

Ramakrishna

[sri Ramakrishna] Regarding Celibacy and Renounciation!!

Hello!!

I am a new entrant in this group.I went through your

earlier messages and found them really informative and

valuable.I came across the discussion of Celibacy in

the first few messages.Sorry to raise the topic again

now.I just need some clarifications.

Welcome

The importance of celibacy in one's spitritual

progress is never undermined.But, I just feel that if

every human in this world begins to feel that he/she

has to be celibate to realize God, then there shall be

no continuance of humanity.I being a science student

beleive that anything ideal must be the best and also

the most favoured.But here we see that although our

goal of realizing God by being celibates is noble, but

its consequences of wiping out the whole human race is

dreadful.Is this a liberation since no human would not

be born again there being no births at all?

Also renouncing the world has been frequently touched

upon.Given that every human renounces the world and

starts contemplating on God. Then the whole life of

human activity comes to a standstill.There shall be no

farmers,pilots,scientists,doctors and so on....So we

then go back to our early stages of human development

in the pre-historic times where men used to roam

naked, hunting animals,eating fruits and meditating.So

our whole world then would be devoid of all modern

amenities.Its hard to think about that world now as we

are totally engulfed in this present world with all

facilities.Can human beings survive in that way??Is

then human evolution a digression from spiritual

path??

Or is this notion of realization of God is inherent

with a premise that all humans would not take for the

path of celibacy and renounciation.If it is so, then

are all spiritualists(who renounced the world but are

dependent on others for food,clothing,housing etc..

)not playing a safe game, taking advantage of the

masses who dont take spirituality and are busy toiling

hard to serve humanity(eg. farmers, masons, workers

etc.) although its for their own living?

Please enlighten me about these doubts.

Thanks,

Srikanth.

__________

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Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

Vivekananda Centre London

http://www.vivekananda.co.uk

November 23, 2001

Hi Srikanth,

Jay and Kendra nice answers. Kendra lord says i am both

Good and Evil. So this duality has to exist for the drama to be an

inetresting and involved one. Director makes arrangement that everything

goes fine. he has added an element of free will and that makes the show all

more interesting.

To add little bit of more confusion there will be other species who in turn

will evolve to Human beings on the basis of their karmas. So population at

the level of Human Beings is not possible to get wiped out. There are other

planets too where you have life ( though there may not be scientfic evidence

to support it ).

Probability that that human race will get wiped out due to celibacy is an

extreme case beacause the probability of people living the default way is

always greater. And the defualt way is birth - procreate - die.

I guess an enlightened one doesn't need to be celibate. Celibacy is an

hurdle for one who wants to become enlightened but after reaching the state

of enlightment celibacy no longer remains a constraint for that person.

After enlightment one reaches a pretty stable state and the stability of the

enlightened person can't be unstabilized by noises like celibacy and all.

Also an enlightened person can know how to create human beings out of dust.

There is no storage of souls, prana or elementary particles so the creation

can always be achieved.

After enlightment enlightened person lives in this same world and doing the

same work. So there will be no shortage of any of the doctors, engineers,

musicians and so on. Its just that after enlightment they become fully aware

of the drama and take part in it with full agileness and hence they give

their best performance. And after that comes a standing ovation for the

centuries to come.

A person on the path of spirituality becomes free from all kinds of

dependences food, cloth, shelter. When people donate food or something they

do get something in return which otherwise can't be earned. Donation builds

in one a virtue of giving without expectations. After accepting the

donations yogi in turn gives the boons and wishes which otherwise can't be

earned. Yogis do meditation and chant mantras which keeps the whole

environment at peace and love. I came across some information which says

that if percentage of population does meditation then the crime rate in

that area will come down. So you see its really hard to say who is

dependent on whom and who is independent of whom.

There was once a yogi who was lying naked on a snow claded mountain. A group

might have gone there for some expedition or visit some temple or something.

One person among them asked him why can't you waer something. Yogi in return

says " What should i wear and where can i find one who will wrap me up " .

luv

Srikanth Srigiriraju [mechsv]

Thursday, November 22, 2001 7:44 PM

Ramakrishna

[sri Ramakrishna] Regarding Celibacy and Renounciation!!

Hello!!

I am a new entrant in this group.I went through your

earlier messages and found them really informative and

valuable.I came across the discussion of Celibacy in

the first few messages.Sorry to raise the topic again

now.I just need some clarifications.

The importance of celibacy in one's spitritual

progress is never undermined.But, I just feel that if

every human in this world begins to feel that he/she

has to be celibate to realize God, then there shall be

no continuance of humanity.I being a science student

beleive that anything ideal must be the best and also

the most favoured.But here we see that although our

goal of realizing God by being celibates is noble, but

its consequences of wiping out the whole human race is

dreadful.Is this a liberation since no human would not

be born again there being no births at all?

Also renouncing the world has been frequently touched

upon.Given that every human renounces the world and

starts contemplating on God. Then the whole life of

human activity comes to a standstill.There shall be no

farmers,pilots,scientists,doctors and so on....So we

then go back to our early stages of human development

in the pre-historic times where men used to roam

naked, hunting animals,eating fruits and meditating.So

our whole world then would be devoid of all modern

amenities.Its hard to think about that world now as we

are totally engulfed in this present world with all

facilities.Can human beings survive in that way??Is

then human evolution a digression from spiritual

path??

Or is this notion of realization of God is inherent

with a premise that all humans would not take for the

path of celibacy and renounciation.If it is so, then

are all spiritualists(who renounced the world but are

dependent on others for food,clothing,housing etc..

)not playing a safe game, taking advantage of the

masses who dont take spirituality and are busy toiling

hard to serve humanity(eg. farmers, masons, workers

etc.) although its for their own living?

Please enlighten me about these doubts.

Thanks,

Srikanth.

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November 23, 2001

Srikanth: I have thought in exactly the same line, and I think most of has

had. If the whole world becomes celebate then the problem of birth and

death cycle will be a mute point and we all will have escaped " the cycle "

the main aim of salvation. But celebacy is only a small part of the whole

sadhana, other wise some who is celebate, from the physical point of view

only, for some medical reason, should get salvation.

Rishis and sadhus who renounce the world for spiritual quest but still

depend on it to sustain them, do have responsibility to the human race,

showing them the way out, helping them. Think of them as spiritual

scientists, labouring in the lab, away from every one,trying to solve the

mystery of this world, invent some thing new. We support them thru Govt.

grants etc. What they find becomes public knowledge to help us, who neither

have the genius or the time for such research. This is the way I think.

Hope it helped. Others who have been in this longer than me can probably say

it better.

Anup

-

" Srikanth Srigiriraju " <mechsv

Thursday, November 22, 2001 9:14 AM

[sri Ramakrishna] Regarding Celibacy and Renounciation!!

> Hello!!

>

> I am a new entrant in this group.I went through your

> earlier messages and found them really informative and

> valuable.I came across the discussion of Celibacy in

> the first few messages.Sorry to raise the topic again

> now.I just need some clarifications.

>

> The importance of celibacy in one's spitritual

> progress is never undermined.But, I just feel that if

> every human in this world begins to feel that he/she

> has to be celibate to realize God, then there shall be

> no continuance of humanity.I being a science student

> beleive that anything ideal must be the best and also

> the most favoured.But here we see that although our

> goal of realizing God by being celibates is noble, but

> its consequences of wiping out the whole human race is

> dreadful.Is this a liberation since no human would not

> be born again there being no births at all?

>

> Also renouncing the world has been frequently touched

> upon.Given that every human renounces the world and

> starts contemplating on God. Then the whole life of

> human activity comes to a standstill.There shall be no

> farmers,pilots,scientists,doctors and so on....So we

> then go back to our early stages of human development

> in the pre-historic times where men used to roam

> naked, hunting animals,eating fruits and meditating.So

> our whole world then would be devoid of all modern

> amenities.Its hard to think about that world now as we

> are totally engulfed in this present world with all

> facilities.Can human beings survive in that way??Is

> then human evolution a digression from spiritual

> path??

>

> Or is this notion of realization of God is inherent

> with a premise that all humans would not take for the

> path of celibacy and renounciation.If it is so, then

> are all spiritualists(who renounced the world but are

> dependent on others for food,clothing,housing etc..

> )not playing a safe game, taking advantage of the

> masses who dont take spirituality and are busy toiling

> hard to serve humanity(eg. farmers, masons, workers

> etc.) although its for their own living?

>

> Please enlighten me about these doubts.

>

> Thanks,

> Srikanth.

>

> __________

> *NEW* over 2200 active jobs at Careers *NEW*

> Visit http://in.careers./

>

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.vivekananda.co.uk

>

November 23, 2001

well stated SUe

Milind

FREESUE [FREESUE]

Friday, 23 November 2001 12:08 PM

Ramakrishna

Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Regarding Celibacy and Renounciation!!

In a message dated 01-11-22 09:36:56 EST, mechsv writes:

<< But here we see that although our

goal of realizing God by being celibates is noble, >>

The discussions on celibacy are usually lively. Tho, I must say I always

find them to be a bit one-sided, always from the male perspective. I for

one

do not believe that celibacy is necessary to realize god (tho I personally

have been celibate for nearly 20 years). There have been many realized

souls

who were not celibate.

To atempt celibacy while there is still desire is dangerous. It then

becomes

mere supression and that which is supressed only becomes intensified.

However, even the desire falls away once one realizes god....as they say.

Remember celibacy is not only refraining from the physical but also the

mental. Not so easy the mental.

I do think that celibacy is much easier for a woman than for a man. Just my

personal opinion.

In Vedanta you find all sorts of scientific explanations of why celibacy.

The whole ojas being stored up and channeled upward, and how depleting it an

incuberance. However...what of those who SUDDENLY realized god through

god's

grace, not celibate at the time of their realization? Who realize god

through other means such as devotion, meditation, and not celibate? You

see,

I think that ones mental attitude towards god, ones mental attitude toward

the physical act (whether it is entered into out of love, or entered into

solely for physical gratification) is what is more important. I have known

people who were celibate yet total asses, selfish, arrogant, obstinate and

pretentious. What makes one spiritual is not whether you are celibate or

not, but how you live your life. Are you compassionate, giving, selfless,

large-hearted and caring for others? If you don't have these qualities,

then

being celibate will have little affect on you.

Sue

Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

Vivekananda Centre London

http://www.vivekananda.co.uk

November 24, 2001

Dear Sue; You raise a good point.I once asked question on celebasy and had

very interesting discussion that went on for a long time, but never heard

from a celebate. Another issue that I had was it was always addressed to

men, pointing at women as potntial problem,but never telling women to stay

away from men to prceed on the spiritual path. I guess they did not have to,

women do it on their own. Another way to look at it will be, spiritual quest

is " men only club " . Well since I asked that question, I have moved on and

am still not a celebate, but I can see their point. However I could not

agree with any more that celebacy is only an important part of the Sadhna

and is not every thing. Yes celebacy is much harder for men.

Anup

- Original Message -----

<FREESUE

Thursday, November 22, 2001 8:07 PM

Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Regarding Celibacy and Renounciation!!

> In a message dated 01-11-22 09:36:56 EST, mechsv writes:

>

> << But here we see that although our

> goal of realizing God by being celibates is noble, >>

>

> The discussions on celibacy are usually lively. Tho, I must say I always

> find them to be a bit one-sided, always from the male perspective. I for

one

> do not believe that celibacy is necessary to realize god (tho I personally

> have been celibate for nearly 20 years). There have been many realized

souls

> who were not celibate.

>

> To atempt celibacy while there is still desire is dangerous. It then

becomes

> mere supression and that which is supressed only becomes intensified.

> However, even the desire falls away once one realizes god....as they say.

> Remember celibacy is not only refraining from the physical but also the

> mental. Not so easy the mental.

> I do think that celibacy is much easier for a woman than for a man. Just

my

> personal opinion.

>

> In Vedanta you find all sorts of scientific explanations of why celibacy.

> The whole ojas being stored up and channeled upward, and how depleting it

an

> incuberance. However...what of those who SUDDENLY realized god through

god's

> grace, not celibate at the time of their realization? Who realize god

> through other means such as devotion, meditation, and not celibate? You

see,

> I think that ones mental attitude towards god, ones mental attitude toward

> the physical act (whether it is entered into out of love, or entered into

> solely for physical gratification) is what is more important. I have

known

> people who were celibate yet total asses, selfish, arrogant, obstinate and

> pretentious. What makes one spiritual is not whether you are celibate or

> not, but how you live your life. Are you compassionate, giving, selfless,

> large-hearted and caring for others? If you don't have these qualities,

then

> being celibate will have little affect on you.

>

> Sue

>

> Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

> Vivekananda Centre London

> http://www.vivekananda.co.uk

>

November 24, 2001

This time I decided not to enter this discussion on

celibacy....but thats me breaking a resolve once more.

I think a spiritual aspirant needs to take his mind

away from being obsessed with celibacy and concentrate

on his Sadhana of remembering God and seeking him

through the path which appeals and is seemingly suited

to him or her. Celibacy is not something that happens

through our will since conquering basis instincts is

only possible with the grace of God.

Fully recognising that celibacy is the result of

melting your mind with the cool light of God

remembrance so that it melts and becomes part of God

's mind (then where is lust ?)let an aspirant just

seek God and his grace. That all

Regards and pranams

Dev

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November 24, 2001

In a message dated 01-11-24 09:29:42 EST, you write:

<< Another issue that I had was it was always addressed to

men, pointing at women as potntial problem,but never telling women to stay

away from men to prceed on the spiritual path. I guess they did not have to,

women do it on their own. Another way to look at it will be, spiritual quest

is " men only club " . >>

Well I generally agree that women are seldom included in discussions on

celibacy. I suppose this goes back to those times when women were also

thought of as mere " property " and not even allowed to partake in religious

discussions. Why? Who knows...maybe it's because men feared their own

weakness' and having women around would only bring out those weakness'.

The spiritual quest has never, and will never be a " men only club " . As a

matter of fact I would chance to say that women tend to have a more

" spiritual " look on life from a very early age. Since men trying to live a

spiritual life see woman as the " great temptress " they tend to make it a " men

only club " .

Sue

November 25, 2001

hello ,

i am also a new entrant to this group...

i am really enjoying the mails on celibacy and

renunciation...

is it ok to say that even if we do things good or

bad(maybe forced by circumstances)..and submit the

actions,their results to GOD...then r we free from the

good or bad deeds ?

so being celibate or not celibate...if we keep doing

things kkeping in mind..and submitting whatver we have

done whetther it is good or bad...to him...

maybe in the long run we slowly bring down the bad

deeds ...and slowly the lust in us also dies down...

and therefore then celibate or not being celibate ..

doesn't matter in the initial condition..maybe!!

i dunno much...but just placing my views..

maybe this is a toned down...version...that we can

commit sins and still surrendering them to god will

uplift us...(this meaning lies inherent inthe

argument)

i don't know even that...

so those who ever understood ...please comment on

this.

thanking u

love nori

=====

Venkata N Nori,

307 SW 16 AVE,

Apartment 304,

Gainesville,

Florida,

FL-32601 ,USA

Phone: 352-692-0253

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http://geocities./ps/info1

November 25, 2001

In a message dated 01-11-25 15:36:07 EST, kcburroughs writes:

<< Celibacy, I believe, is something that comes about naturally in the course

of spiritual life. To try to force it is futile. >>

Yes, I totally agree with this statement. The desire falls away in course of

time. A troubling question tho for those who are wanting to be monks or nuns

tho, where celibacy is required. Is this not a form of " force " . Especially

on those who at an early age, can't not possibly know yet whether they will

be able to endure the celibacy requirement.

<<I met a accomplished Chinese master once (Ni Hua-ching, who lives in the US)

who said something I thought was quite interesting. He said that when your

" energy " is developed, even an exchange of glances can be a " complete sexual

experience. " >>

Sooooo true....tho I wonder....would this be considered a break in celibacy???

<<There is then no need for gross fulfillment.>>

As I said to someone else....there is a union that goes beyond sex, beyond

the senses...once you experience this, the physical union seems insignifigant

in comparison.

Sue

November 25, 2001

> Celibate is abstaining from sex. It can also mean one who remains single,

> unmarried, and also abstains from sex.

I would say it slightly differently--that celibacy is abstaining from any

lustful action, which could include something like looking at another person

with lust as well as outright sexual acts.

Celibacy, I believe, is something that comes about naturally in the course

of spiritual life. To try to force it is futile. Those who cannot be celibate

should try to get married, if it is in their destiny. If they feel that

reduction of sexual desire is important for spiritual life, it can be gradually

and naturally reduced within the context of a committed relationship. In

marriage the issue of sex is not the only one the couple is dealing with (which

may be the case when one has sex in uncommitted, superficial, or promiscuous

relationships). Marriage is basically a matter of two egos coming face to face

and having to find an adjustment--it is not primarily a sexual situation.

Through this adjustment, much spiritual progress can be made, especially if both

partners have the same aim, but even if only one does. (That is why we hear

stories of great men who have made spiritual leaps and bounds with the help of

" nagging wives " !) Both married (sexually active) and single (celibate) people

have the same potential for spiritual progress, theoretically (each individual

destiny is unique).

This is what I have gathered from study and reflection on the words of the

masters, and some degree of personal observation.

I met a accomplished Chinese master once (Ni Hua-ching, who lives in the US)

who said something I thought was quite interesting. He said that when your

" energy " is developed, even an exchange of glances can be a " complete sexual

experience. " There is then no need for gross fulfillment. In thinking about

this, I considered that when thoughts and feelings of desire are not acted out

on the gross plane, no further gross samskaras are created, thus reducing the

momentum of desire in the chain of cause and effect. The samskaras of lust will

then gradually diminish, and control will become easier in a natural way.

Master Ni also said that a way to deal with temptation is simply to mentally

appreciate and admire the object of your desire and be satisfied with that (and

then forget about it, of course--the idea was not to dwell in fantasy on an

object of desire but to simply acknowledge the appreciation of the beauty or

attractiveness and then let it go). Just another point of view to contemplate. I

suppose it takes grace to be able to follow this advice. Until then, we should

accept whatever God grants.

_______

Get your free @ address at

November 25, 2001

Yes I am in full agreement with Sue. Spiritualism is not 'men only club'.

Otherwise what is the place of Maitreyi, Gargi, and Sarda ma?

Milind

FREESUE [FREESUE]

Sunday, 25 November 2001 2:53 PM

Ramakrishna

Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Regarding Celibacy and Renounciation!!

In a message dated 01-11-24 09:29:42 EST, you write:

<< Another issue that I had was it was always addressed to

men, pointing at women as potntial problem,but never telling women to stay

away from men to prceed on the spiritual path. I guess they did not have

to,

women do it on their own. Another way to look at it will be, spiritual

quest