[Sri Ramakrishna] Fw: Experiences in London

[Guest guest]

Namaskar..

 

i have a question that i would be grateful for further light on...or at

least further my thoughts on..from the List...

 

we often say that God's Love for us is Unconditional..yet it is only when we

stick to Truth, Avoid Falsehood and lies and remain Pure to the core that

God manifests...

 

Why then is it unconditional..it is just as conditional as someone loving us

only when we behave according to that someone's needs?

 

Am i being too simplistic or harsh on God?

 

Please share your thoughts...i would be most grateful...

regards and pranaams

 

 

> > Dear Jay,

> > That was an excellent start. Are you going to tell us more, about how

>the

> > session went?

> > Regard, Ygoeshananda

>

 

 

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[Guest guest]

dear friend,

it is one of the right questions to be asked.Several people questioned me many

things but perhaps it is one of the most basic questions, which people often

take it for granted. I repeat ur question here:

 

Q:we often say that God's Love for us is Unconditional..yet it is only when we

stick to Truth, Avoid Falsehood and lies and remain Pure to the core that

God manifests...

 

Why then is it unconditional..it is just as conditional as someone loving us

only when we behave according to that someone's needs?

 

Am i being too simplistic or harsh on God?

 

If we put it differently, if God has made everything, why is that he is

insisting on certain things( of behaviour and attitude)?Is there a unconditional

love of god? or , just that he is as good as any human being who loves u if u

behave nice enough to be loved?( please correct me if my explanation of the

question has deviated from the spirit of your question)

A: To start with, I think the fundemental question that needs to be asked is :

whether god exists?If he exists, what is he doing?

Assuming that god exists(if he does not exist, the above question becomes

extraneous) Now the question arise, what does he do? This question should be

answered both from the view point of Bhakthi yoga as well as Jnana yoga.

To start with, they say that God is no more than karma sakshi. I e He keeps

seeing the jeeva eating fruits of his own karma. If God and soul are one the

same and god is aware that both r one and the same, where is the question that

He keeps watching when the soul is eating the fruits of its karma? does it mean

that there is no will of god, but only free wil exists?

 

Secondly, if he is only a mute witness(whether he is the agency making people

repaying karmas or not), then where is the question of personal god? if a

personal god exists, is he benevolent or simply plays laissaz faire(moderator ,

please correct the spelling)?

If he is only an agency who is going to be a mute witness and is going to punish

u or help u according to your own karma, then why should we worship him? is it

not sufficient if we do good karmas and keep quiet?Automatically, we will reap

good things? is it not?

Now, these questions will beget many more questions but before we pose further

questions and get confused, i think it is appropriate here to get into some

concepts first.

you will see these concepts in my next posting.

But before that, let me make a startling statement for u so that you may muse

over that. (to moderator, please do not stop this post on the basis of this

statement For your eyes only, there is something going to follow) :

 

GOD DOES NOT EXIST!

Please think and think over this statement then and then alone, you will come

nearer to the truth. Untill then, hv a nice thinking time.

with love to all,

kishore

siva_sai19

 

(to be continued)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear jairam,

 

 

I appreciate that U have asked one of the most fundamental questions.

Personally also,people keep asking me several questions in person or

by mail but I have not encountered this question any where. Many do

not ask this question , coz the reply is already internalised

depending upon the level and kind of religous upbringing and faith.

In any case, many feel asking this type of question is to be harsh on

god. I will try to reply this question in brief but if u have any

doubts, you r welcome to post them here or mail me personally (

siva_sai19).

 

I repeat your question for ready reference here.

 

Q:we often say that God's Love for us is Unconditional..yet it is

only when we

stick to Truth, Avoid Falsehood and lies and remain Pure to the core

that

God manifests...

 

Why then is it unconditional..it is just as conditional as someone

loving us

only when we behave according to that someone's needs?

 

Am i being too simplistic or harsh on God?

 

If we put it differently, if God has made everything, why is that he

is

insisting on certain things( of behaviour and attitude)?Is there a

unconditional love of god? or , just that he is as good as any human

being who

loves u if u behave nice enough to be loved?( please correct me if my

explanation of the question has deviated from the spirit of your

question)

A: To start with, I think the fundemental question that needs to be

asked is :

whether god exists?If he exists, what is he doing?

Assuming that god exists(if he does not exist, the above question

becomes

extraneous) Now the question arise, what does he do? This question

should be

answered both from the view point of Bhakthi yoga as well as Jnana

yoga.

To start with, they say that God is no more than karma sakshi. I e He

keeps

seeing the jeeva eating fruits of his own karma. If God and soul are

one the

same and god is aware that both r one and the same, where is the

question that

He keeps watching when the soul is eating the fruits of its karma?

does it mean

that there is no will of god, but only free wil exists?

 

Secondly, if he is only a mute witness(whether he is the agency

making people

repaying karmas or not), then where is the question of personal god?

if a

personal god exists, is he benevolent or simply plays laissaz faire

(moderator ,

please correct the spelling)?

If he is only an agency who is going to be a mute witness and is

going to

punish u or help u according to your own karma, then why should we

worship him?

is it not sufficient if we do good karmas and keep quiet?

Automatically, we will

reap good things? is it not?

Now, these questions will beget many more questions . Thus,.we see

that your question is preceded by several questions of same nature

and it begets many qeustions too. But, whether we can reply all

those questions or not in this post, the final purpose of this post

is to reply whether love of god is conditional or not? if yes, why?

 

But before we proceed further, I think it is appropriate here to get

into some concepts first.

 

Basically, Buddha , whose technique of Yoga, Vippasana is proved to

be a good tool to find the Absolute, said that God does not exist

and only creation exists. Sankara, whose knowledge is indisputable,

said that God exists and creation does not exist. Then what is the

truth? who is correct? I say that both r correct, because they have

seen only the half truths. Thus, God does not exist but He exists.

Creation exists but it does not exist.

 

Now, if God does not exist, how does He exist? He is exisiting as The

Absolute, with no gunas or akara. He is being known only through the

creation.Isa vasya midam sarvam- god is existing through the universe

in its entirity. " Aprapya manasa saha " ,' u cannot know Him through

your mind " Knowing Him in that state of Nirakara and Nirguna means

you yourself have become Nirakara and Nirguna and anything less than

that means you have not totally known Him.

 

Now, coming to creation, any part of creation has to follow its

dharma. what is dharma? dharma stated in simplest words is to follow

one's nature-' to be what you r supposed to be'. The dharma of fire

is to burn. The dharma of sun is to emanate heat and light. The

dharma of salt is to be salty.Thus, the dharma of a human being is to

be human being, first, middle and last. There is no other option in

that.

 

But, man fortunately or unfortunately is having the peculiarlity of

possessing both mind and intellect, which is not found in any other

creature. Hence, he alone has free will and so, he alone has the

option of going away from his true nature- ie deviating from his

dharma unlike any other aspect of universe.

Every other aspect of universe is following a set pattern of

evolution. Since it has no option of deviating from its dharma, its

path of evolution is fixed. But, for man, the evolution is done on a

different plane- on the plane of intellect. He has an option of his

deeds , so he keeps going back and forth in his evolution being a

man.

 

Thus, he becomes responsible for his deeds and hence, he has to

undergo the fruits of what he has done.Thus, the concept of Karma is

applicable to only man and not to any other creature- to pashu or to

devas. Add to it, he is operating in the time continnum, unlike some

Devas who are not operating in the time continnum. Time, unlike many

planes operation, is unrecoverable. The concepts of time machine is

not operatable, that is noone including God cannot go back in time

or into future. So, whatever you have done is once and for all is

done and you cannot change it. so, you have to necessarily undergo

the fruits.

 

 

Thus, we understand that God is exisitng as an absolute. He has

manifested as His creation. The real purpose of every aspect of this

universe is to undergo evolution towards becoming the absolute step

by step. Getting promoted to the next step in the evolution is

possible only through following your dharma.For all aspects of

universe , except man, getting this promotion is automatic coz they

do not have the option of

deviating from their dharma. Once man has commited a deed , he is

bound by its fruits because he cannot undo it.( because of the

peculiarity of the time continnum). So, if he deviates from dharma,

again ,he is going back in his evolution. He will keep on going in

this cycle of birth and death till he completely squares off his

karma Mind you, when i say karma, it means both good karma and bad

karma. let me give one somall example.

Let us say that you r about to complete this birth in few minutes.

By some technique, you have squared off all your karma and you r just

ready to attain The Absolute. But, it so happened that one person had

been requesting you to get him a job and u took pity on him and few

minutes you left this body, you have asked your neighbour to get him

a job and the neighbour has also agreed. You have told the news to

this aspirant also. Immediately, that aspirant , instead of thanking

you, just gets up and goes away to thank

 

 

the neighbour who has helped him , which has hurt you. You expected a

thnx from him Now, you left the body. What will happen? will u attain

the absolute? No, coz your expectation from the deed had to be

completed. So, you hv to take another birth . In the process of

completing this expectation, you do more deeds and so, who knows how

much you may increatse your account of karma? Thus, what you have

done is a good deed but since u hv expected the fruits thereof, you

need to come back to the world and you have moved away from achieving

the Absolute. So, is it possible to square off your karma? And, if

good deeds are going to move me away from the Absolute why should i

do good deeds?

 

First, let me answer the second question first. Doing good deeds is

necessary to square off your bad deeds. You may argue,' i hv not done

any bad deeds' . You r doing so many bad deeds every moment of your

existence. Even when you blink your eyes, you r effecting so many

physical creatures of atomic proportions and so many creatures of

nonphysical nature. U r disturbing them from their dharma. That is

why this body is called ' karma kshetra'. So, it is needed to do good

deeds to square off the bad deeds. And, it is necessary to do them

without expectations. Otherwise, we have seen how your good deeds

will themselves become a hurdle in your spiritual progress.

 

Then, let us see how it is possible to square off your karma.

 

There r several ways of doing it and one of the ways is Bhakti yoga.-

the path of devotion. Bhakti yoga preaches that you need to love god

and his creation and love so much that you ultimately realise there

is no difference between these three aspects- god, the universe and

you. if you love this much, you are automatically finding The

Absolute, coz then, whatever you do or not do will not have any

effect on your fruits. Ie to be frank, there r no fruits of your

karma.

 

Thus, doing good deeds is in your own interest. It does not effect

the love of god. Love of god always exists for every aspect of this

universe. It is flowing always. It is for you to enjoy it . Once you

enjoy it so much that you really realise there is no difference

between the trayee- God, universe and you, then the words good deeds

and bad deeds have no meaning for you.

 

 

 

By kishore dt 11th March, 2002.