Nisargadatta Maharaj

[Guest guest]

The Supreme, the Mind and the Body

 

Q: From what you have told us, it appears that you are not quite

conscious of your surrounding. To us you seem extremely alert and

active. We cannot possible believe that you are in a kind of hypnotic

state, which leaves no memory behind. On the contrary, your memory

seems excellent. How are we to understand your statement that the

world and all it includes does not exist, as far as you are concerned?

 

Maharaj: It is all a matter of focus. Your mind is focused in the

world; mine is focused in reality. It is like the moon in daylight -

when the sun shines, the moon is hardly visible. Or, watch how you

take your food. As long as it is in your mouth, you are conscious of

it; once swallowed, it does not concern you any longer. It would be

troublesome to have it constantly in mind until it is eliminated. The

mind should be normally in abeyance -incessant activity is a morbid

state. The universe works by itself - that I know. What else do I need

to know?

 

Q: So a gnani knows what he is doing only when he turns his mind to

it; otherwise he just acts, without being concerned.

 

M: The average man is not conscious of his body as such. He is

conscious of his sensations, feelings and thoughts. Even these, once

detachment sets in, moves away from the center of consciousness

and happens spontaneously and effortlessly.

 

Q: What then is in the center of consciousness?

 

M: That which cannot be given name or form, for it is without quality

and beyond consciousness. You may say it is a point in consciousness.

Like a hole in the paper is both in the paper and yet not of paper, so

is the supreme state in the very center of consciousness, and yet

beyond consciousness. It is as if there were an opening in the mind

through which the mind flooded with light. The opening is not even the

light. It is just and opening.

 

Q: An opening is just a void, absence.

 

M: Quite so. From the mind's point of view, it is but and opening for

the light of awareness to enter the mental space. By itself the light

can only be compared to a solid, dense, rocklike, homogeneous and

changeless mass of pure awareness, free from the mental patterns of

name and shape.

 

Q: Is there any connection between the mental space and the supreme abode?

 

M: The supreme gives existence to the mind. The mind gives existence

to the body.

 

Q: And what lies beyond?

 

M: Take as an example. A venerable yogi, a master in the art of

longevity, himself over 1000 year old, comes to teach me his art. I

fully respect and sincerely admire his achievements, yet all I can

tell him is: of what use is longevity to me? I am beyond time. However

long a life may be it is but a moment and a dream. In the same way I

am beyond all attributes. They appear and disappear in my light, but

cannot describe me. The universe is all names and forms, based on

qualities and their differences, while I am beyond. The world is there

because I am, but I am not the world.

 

Q: But you're living in the world!

 

M: That's what you say! I know there is a world, which includes this

body and this mind, but I do not consider them to be more 'mine' than

other minds and bodies. They are there in time and space, but I am

timeless and spaceless.

 

Q: But since all exists by your light, are you not the creator of the

world?

 

M: I am neither the potentiality nor the actualization, nor the

actuality of things, In my light they come and go as the specks of

dust dancing in the sunbeams. The light illumines the specks, but does

not depend of them. Nor can it be said to create them. It cannot be

even said to know them.

 

Q: I am asking you a question and you are answering. Are you conscious

of the question and the answer?

 

M: In reality I am neither hearing nor answering. In the world of

events the question happens and the answer happens. Nothing happens to

me. Everything just happens.

 

Q: Are you the witness?

 

M: What does witness mean? Mere knowledge. It rains and now the rain

is over. I did not get wet. I know it rained, but I am not affected. I

just witness the rain.

 

Q: The fully realized man, spontaneously abiding in the supreme state,

appears to eat, drink, and so on. Is he aware of it, or not?

 

M: That in which consciousness happens, the universal consciousness or

mind, we call the either of consciousness. All the objects of

consciousness form the universe. What is beyond both, supporting both,

is the supreme state, a state of utter stillness and silence. Whoever

goes there, disappears. It is unreachable by words, or mind. You may

call it God, or Parabrahman, or supreme Reality, but these are names

given by the mind. It is the nameless, contentless, effortless and

spontaneous state, beyond being and not being.

 

Q: But does it remain conscious?

 

M: As the universe is the body of the mind, so it consciousness the

body of the supreme. It is not conscious, but it gives rise to

consciousness.

 

Q: In my daily action much goes by habit, automatically. I am aware of

the general purpose, but not of each movement in detail As my

consciousness broadens and deepens, details tend to recede, leaving me

free for the general trends. Does not the same happen to a gnani, but

more so?

 

M: On the level of consciousness - yes. In the supreme state, no. This

state is entirely one and indivisible, a single solid block of

reality. the only way of knowing it is to be it. The mind cannot reach

it. To perceive it, does not need the senses; to know it, does not

need the mind

 

Q: That is how God runs the world.

 

M: God is not running the world.

 

Q: Then who is doing it?

 

M: Nobody. All happens by itself. You are asking the question and you

are supplying the answer. And you know the answer when you ask the

question. All is a play in consciousness. All divisions are illusory.

You can know the false only. The truth you must yourself be.

 

Q: There is the witnessed consciousness and there is the witnessing

consciousness. Is the second the supreme?

 

M: There are the two - the person and the witness, the observer. When

you see them as one, and go beyond, you are in the supreme state. It

is not perceivable, because it is what makes perception possible. It

is beyond being and not being. It is neither the mirror nor the image

in the mirror. It is what is - the timeless reality, unbelievable hard

and solid.

 

Q: The gnani - is he the witness or the Supreme "

 

M: He is the Supreme, of course, but he can also be viewed as the

universal witness.

 

Q: But he remains a person?

 

M: When you believe yourself to be a person, you see persons

everywhere. In reality there are no persons, only threads of memories

and habits. At the moment of realization the person ceases. Identity

remains, but identity has no being in itself; it is a reflection in

the mind of the witness, the ''I am', which again is a mode of being.

 

Q: Is the Supreme conscious?

 

M: Nether conscious no unconscious, I am telling you from experience.

 

Q: Pragnanam Brahma. What is this Pragna?

 

M: It is the unselfconscious knowledge of life itself.

 

Q: It is vitality, the energy of life, livingness?

 

M: Energy comes first. For everything is a form of energy.

Consciousness is most differentiated in the waking state. Less so in

dream. Still less in sleep. Homogeneous - in the fourth state.

Beyond is the inexpressible monolithic reality, the abode of the gnani.

 

Q: I have cut my hand. It healed, by what power did it heal?

 

M: By the power of life.

 

Q: What is that power?

 

M: It is consciousness. All is conscious.

 

Q: What is the source of consciousness?

 

M: Consciousness itself is the source of everything.

 

Q; Can there be life without consciousness?

 

M: No, nor consciousness without life. They are both one. But in

reality only the Ultimate is. The rest is a matter of name and form.

And as long as you cling to the idea that only what has name and shape

exists, the Supreme will appear to you non-existing. When you

understand that names and shapes are hollow shells without and content

whatsoever, and what is real is nameless and formless, pure energy of

life and light of consciousness, you will be at peace - immersed in

the deep silence of reality.

 

Q: If time and space are mere illusions and you are beyond, please

tell me what is the weather in New York. Is it hot or raining there?

 

M: How can I tell you? Such things need special training. Or, just

traveling to New York? I may be quite certain that I am beyond time

and space, and yet unable to locate myself at will at some point of

time and space. I am not interested enough; I see no purpose in

undergoing a special Yogic training. I have just heard of New York. To

me it is a word. Why should I know more than the word conveys? every

atom may be universe, as complex as ours. Must I know them all? I can

- if it train.

 

Q: In putting the question about the weather in New York where did I

make the mistake?

 

M: The world and the mind are states of being. The supreme is not a

state. It pervades all states, but is is not a state of something

else.

It is entirely uncaused, independent, complete in itself, beyond time

and space, mind and matter.

 

Q: By what sign do you recognize it?

 

M: That's the point - it leaves no traces. There is nothing to

recognize it by. It must be seen directly, by giving up all searching

for signs and approaches. When all names and forms have been given up,

the real is with you. You need not seek it. Plurality and diversity

are the play of the mind only . Reality is one.

 

Q: If reality leaves no evidence, there is no speaking about it.

 

M: It is, It cannot be denied. it is deep and dark, mystery beyond

mystery. But it is, while all merely happens.

 

Q: Is it the Unknown?

 

M: It is beyond both, the known and the unknown. But I would rather

call it the known, then the unknown. For whenever something is known,

it is the real that is known.

 

Q: Is silence an attribute of the real?

 

M: This too is of the mind. All states and conditions are of the mind.

 

Q: What is the place of samadhi?

 

M: Not making use of one's consciousness is samadhi. You just leave

your mind alone. You want nothing, neither from your body nor your mind.