Dr. J.W. Elder's interview with H.H. Kanchi Paramacharya

[Guest guest]

Namami Sankaraachaaryam, sarvalokaika Poojitham

 

With permission blessings and grace from HH Swamy Vijeyendra Saraswathi garu of

Shri Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham Paramacharya and miracles

 

Dr. J.W. Elder's interview with H.H. Kanchi Paramacharya

The following represents a detailed gist of the discussion between Dr. J.W.

Elder, Assistant Professor of Sociology. University of Wisconsin, Madison, U.S.,

and His Holiness

Dr. Elder:

In view of the developments that have taken place in India during the past

fifteen or twenty years, such as India's Independence, her development programs

and the recent invasion from China, what would you say are those elements within

Hinduism that most need to stressed today?

His Holiness:

Prior to India's Independence you might have found not even ten per-cent of the

people being dishonest. Most of the Indian masses, peasants, were honest in all

their statements and simple in their aspirations. Prior to independence the

extent of dishonesty was very little when compared with any other country. With

independence all the people attained adult franchise. Adult franchise is given

to the masses who are mostly illiterate. The people who stand in elections go

and bribe the voters. The voter, illiterate, receives money and votes for

somebody else.

With the advent of electricity and with the various developments, everybody is

interested in converting one's punjai(dry) lands into nanjai(wet) lands by

installing electric motors and pump sets for irrigation purposes. water is not

required to such an extent for the dry lands as it is required for the wet

lands. Peasants and other poor people were taking maize, ragi etc. and they were

cultivating grams and dals from these dry lands. Since everybody has started

cultivating rice more for the sake of earnings, apart from the increase in price

of these grams and dals after a certain period, the resources for water get

exhausted. Further everybody is interested aiming only at a high standard of

living. This results in indebtedness to others. Even the poorest man wants to

wear trousers. He is unable to discriminate between what is necessary and what

is luxury. In the Hindu Sastras there is one aspect which stresses the

discrimination between luxury and necessity. If a man does not take coffee or

tea he can still survive. What is most essential for a man is a small house in

which to live, a shelter from rain and sun and enough clothing and food.

Therefore, the man must maintain a standard of living that was existing prior to

independence. The Government must maintain the standard of living without

enhancing it till the people are in a position to discriminate between what is

absolutely essential and what is luxury. If the standard of living is maintained

at the pre-independence level till we reach a point of self-sufficiency, by

eliminating an discriminating luxuries and necessities, we will reach a stage

when we will be a position to offer help to other countries out of affection,

without any political string attached to it, just as America or Russia is

offering help by diverting its surplus to help other countries. Thirdly, the

merchant community, when they are sending goods to foreign countries, show one

quality and export an entirely different quality and sometimes they adulterate

it. This spoils the name of the country Therefore, the essential aspects within

Hinduism that have to be stressed today are 1. Truthfulness, 2. Honestly, 3.

Discrimination between the necessities and the luxuries and 4. Non-cheating of

others.

Dr. Elder:

In the recent past, Madurai had celebrated Kumbhabhishekam of the Meenakshi

Temple. This has required a great deal of effort and an expenditure of more than

20 lakhs. What is you opinion of the Kumbhabhishekam and of the expenditure it

was involved?

His Holiness:

Every religion has its own form of religious building. The Muslims have their

Mosques, the Christians have their Churches and we Hindus have our Temples with

all their Gopurams. These Gopurams are so tall that whenever a man happens to

see them, he is reminded of God at least for the moment when he looks at those

towers. Non of the scriptures or manuscripts can remind him of God as well as

these tall towers. The Sastras call these tall towers as " Sthoola Lingas. " If

there is any good that always stays with man till the end, it is the moment that

he thinks of God. Naturally when these Gopurams become old, they have to be

repaired and preserved in good condition. According to the Sastras and Hindu

theology, rules are laid to sanctify the repaired Gopurams. The sanctifying

ceremony is called the Kumbhabishekam. just as a marriage is being done by the

coming together of II the relatives so also the Kumbhabhishekam is being done by

the joint efforts of all.

(As this point in the discussion, it began to rain; so the group left the yard

and moved, to His Holiness' quarters).

Dr. Elder:

During the past several years, a number of Kumbhabhishekams have been occurring

in various cities in South India. With all these renewed interest in temple

renovation and restoration, would you interpret this as some sort of religious

revival occurring in India at the present time?

His Holiness:

Kumbhibhishekams have been occurring in these temples from time to time, once in

every few decades. it happens that each temple had several Kumbhabhishekams in

the last several decades. So some of the important temples in the South have

been renovated in the recent years and it looks as though there is a sudden

renewal of interest in temple restoration. But this something that has been

going on for centuries. However, the contributing factors are: 1. Prior to 1947

the people were engaged in putting an end to the British rule. Now after

completing settling that question, they have diverted their attention to

preserving their ancient monuments. 2. Since Independence, a vast number of

people have experimented and experienced the anti-God campaigns and the godless

ideologist such as Dravida kazhagam, Dravida Munnetra Kazhagan and communism.

Having failed in all their anti-God campaigns, they are returning to God. 3.

Now-a-days it taken ten rupees to buy what formerly took only one rupee to buy,

due to inflation. So the greater expenditure is partly just a reflection of the

fact that it takes more rupees to renovate a temple than it did fifty years ago

and people also are contributing liberally.

Dr. Elder:

Ahimsa has sometimes been included as one of the major teachings within

Hinduism. In view of the recent Chinese attack on India, what would your

interpretation be of the present day application of ahimsa?

His Holiness:

I think you are basing your question on ahimsa as Gandhi interpreted it. Gandhi

in turn based his belief and ideas about ahimsa on Lord Buddha.

Both of them were in my opinion failures. This is my viewpoint. When Nehru sent

the Indian Army to Kashmir in 1947, he said that he was sending the army after

consulting and taking instruction from Gandhi. Hence Gandhi's failure in ahimsa.

There is one version of Lord Buddha's death according to which he ate pig's

flesh and dies as a consequence. Most of the Buddhist monks are non-vegetarians

in the Buddhist countries such as Ceylon, Burma, Malaya and China. Therefore,

Buddha's ahimsa has also failed. I think the correct interpretation of ahimsa is

that it is virtue applicable only to the highest asrama of the highest caste,

the brahmin sanyasi. When he has renounced the world he should do no violence at

all, not even pluck a leaf from a tree. If anybody beats him, he should do

nothing to defend himself and he should receive them with joy But this doctrine

of ahimsa is not meant to be applied to nations or the leader of the nations.

Some feel that ahimsa brought India here independence. This is not actually the

case. The English had their own reasons for setting India free, whether or not

we had been practicing ahimsa.

According to Sastras, the rigid of ahimsa are not applicable to the Government

or to the leaders. Our Sastras make it clear that a ruler who does not defend

his country fails in his duty. The rules of defending the country are not only

for China, but for the nation. Of course, a leader should not wage an aggressive

war. Nor should he refuse to defend his country if it is attacked. If a citizen

is attacked by another citizen, our Sastras make it clear that it is the duty of

the Government to protect its citizen even if it means capital punishment for

the offender. Further the Sastras have made it clear to what extend everybody

should follow ahimsa.

Mr. Agarwal: (One of those present at the interview): You mentioned that ahimsa

as a virtue should be practised only by a sanyasi. Do you feel that the question

of being a Brahmin is something determined strictly by birth, or anybody can

become learned enough to be considered a Brahmin?

His Holiness:

According to Sastras, the Hindu community is divided into various castes. A

particular duty is assigned to a particular caste. By heredity people come into

a caste. The duty assigned to a Brahmin will always be in search of knowledge

which is beneficial to the other caste people. It is the duty of the other cast

people to look after Brahmins. That is why everything is offered to a Brahmin:

Godana(offering of cow), Bhomidana, (offering of lands). Therefore, it is the

duty of the other case people to preserve Brahmins who are always dedicating

their lives in pursuit of knowledge. When he once enjoys the fruits of the

knowledge, he reaches the highest asrama, sanyasa. There is no bondage for him.

He need not defend anybody. He becomes spiritually elevated. Just to maintain

himself, a sanyasi begs for food. If a Brahmin fails in his duty, by not

pursuing knowledge, he is considered to be an outcaste. he is not converted to

any other case. But if the other people also dedicate their lives in pursuit of

their dharma they can also reach the highest goal of becoming Jnanis. Everybody

including a Brahmin is benefited by the Jnani and even a Brahmin worships him,

though he may belong to another caste. Thereby a Jnani has reached the highest

knowledge just like ma a Sannyasi the highest caste. Lord Rama and Lord Krishna,

both born as Kshatriyas, are worshipped by all including Brahmins. They did the

duty enjoined on their caste and thereby attained greatness. When anybody

reaches the level of the Jnanis, equating with the highest asrama of the highest

caste, he would automatically follow the highest principles of ahimsa as he

realises his own self manifest in every being in the universe.

Dr. Elder:

You mentioned that leaders should be guided by the Sastras. In the Artha-sastra,

Kautilya states that a king has the responsibility to continue expanding his

nation's boundaries. Would you say that contemporary leader should follow his

advice? Or is there some other standard that determines how one should decide

whether or not follow a particular statement in a particular Sastra?

His Holiness:

Just as Machiavelli said one thing and Christ another, so one sometimes find

contradictory statements in the Sastras. I would not to the principle

given in the Artha-sastra, because I do feel that it does not agree with the

principles laid down in the Dharma Sastras. However, if the country is ruled in

tyranny, in absolute poverty and misery, subjecting the people to all manner of

troubles, then it is the duty case of the neighboring ruler to go and depose the

king and bring happiness, peace and prosperity to the citizens there. Only under

such circumstance can a country expand his kingdom. This is a helpful move. The

ruler would be keeping in the mind the needs of people of the country and we

would be following the principles of the Sastras.

Dr. Elder:

Do you feel, then, that India's present leaders should be following the

prescription laid down for rulers in the Dharma-sastras?

His Holiness

Today India is a secular state. It would not be possible for the Government to

follow the principles of Dharma-sastras. Therefore, it is the duty of the

religious institutions to remind the people and to educate the people in the

principles of Dharma-sastras, and as a result of this, the people who form the

Government will bear in mind the principles of Dharma-sastras. Since the leaders

of the state cannot see to these matters, it places all the responsibility on

the religious uplift of the society.

Dr. Elder:

Then for India's present leaders you would say that they should follow the

Sastras. Where there are contradictions among the Sastras they should follow the

Dharma-Sastras. And where there are contradictions between the Dharma-sastras

and the Constitution, they should follow the Constitution. This then makes the

Constitution something like a final Sastra for India's leaders.

His Holiness:

(Laughing) Yes, I suppose this does make the Constitution a contemporary Sastra

for India's rulers.

Dr. Elder:

Well, I have taken up a considerable amount of your time. Thank you very much

for giving me this chance to meet you and I very much appreciate the answers you

have given to my questions.

His Holiness:

It is true that Americans have migrated from England to America. After setting

in America they have undergone hardships and troubles in various ways. They have

fought against the Britishers. And they finally brought peace and prosperity to

their country. As a result of this, I am happy to note that an American by

inborn nature has taken up the task of finding out the troubles and sufferings

of others. I am extremely happy about this.

God bless you all.