Interviews With Swami Vivekananda

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Posted by: " Bhakta Dhruva " bhakta_dhruva

 

Interviews With Swami Vivekananda -THE ABROAD AND THE PROBLEMS AT HOME

 

[Our representative met the Swami Vivekananda in the train at the Chingleput

Station and travelled with him to Madras. The following is the report of the

interview]

 

Q.- " What made you go to America, Swamiji? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " Rather a serious question to answer in brief. I can only

answer it partly now. Because I travelled all over India, I wanted to go over to

other countries. I went to America by the Far East. "

 

Q.- " What did you see in Japan, and is there any chance of India following in

the progressive steps of Japan? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " None whatever, until all the three hundred millions of India

combine together as a whole nation. The world has never seen such a patriotic

and artistic race as the Japanese, and one special feature about them is this

that while in Europe and elsewhere Art generally goes with dirt, Japanese Art is

Art plus absolute cleanliness. I would wish that every one of our young men

could visit Japan once at least in his lifetime. It is very easy to go there.

The Japanese think that everything Hindu is great and believe that India is a

holy land. Japanese Buddhism is entirely different from what you see in Ceylon.

It is the same as Vedanta. It is positive and theistic Buddhism, not the

negative atheistic Buddhism of Ceylon.

 

Q.- " What is the key to Japan's sudden greatness? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " The faith of the Japanese in themselves, and their love for

their country. When you have men who are ready to sacrifice their everything for

their country, sincere to the backbone — when such men arise, India will become

great in every respect. It is the men that make the country! What is there in

the country? If you catch the social morality and the political morality of the

Japanese, you will be as great as they are. The Japanese are

ready to sacrifice everything for their country, and they have become a great

people. But you are not; you cannot be, you sacrifice everything only for your

own families and possessions. "

 

Q.- " Is it your wish that India should become like Japan? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " Decidedly not. India should continue to be what she is. How

could India ever become like Japan, or any nation for the matter of that? In

each nation, as in music, there is a main note, a central theme, upon which all

others turn. Each nation has a theme: everything else is secondary. India's

theme is religion. Social reform and everything else are secondary. Therefore

India

cannot be like Japan. It is said that when 'the heart breaks', then the flow of

thought comes. India's heart must break, and the flow of spirituality will come

out. India is India. We are not like the Japanese, we are Hindus. India's very

atmosphere is soothing. I have been working incessantly here, and amidst this

work I am getting rest. It is only from spiritual work that we can get rest in

India. If your work is material here, you die of — diabetes! "

 

Q.- " So much for Japan. What was your first experience of America,

Swamiji? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " From first to last it was very good. With the exception of

the missionaries and 'Church-women' the Americans are most hospitable,

kind-hearted, generous, and good-natured. "

 

Q.- " Who are these 'Church-women' that you speak of, Swamiji? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " When a woman tries her best to find a husband, she goes to

all the fashionable seaside resorts and tries all sorts of tricks to catch a

man. When she fails in her attempts, she becomes, what they call in America, an

'old maid', and joins the Church. Some of them become very 'Churchy'. These

'Church-women' are awful fanatics. They are under the thumb of the priests

there. Between them and the priests they make hell of earth and make a mess of

religion. With the exception of these, the Americans are a very good people.

They loved me, and I love them a great deal. I felt as if I was one of them. "

 

Q.- " What is your idea about the results of the Parliament of

Religions? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " The Parliament of Religions, as it seems to me, was intended

for a 'heathen show' before the world: but it turned out that the heathens had

the upper hand and made it a Christian show all around. So the Parliament of

Religions was a failure from the Christian standpoint, seeing that the Roman

Catholics, who were the organisers of that Parliament, are, when there is a talk

of another Parliament at Paris, now steadily opposing it. But the Chicago

Parliament was a tremendous success for India and Indian thought. It helped on

the tide of Vedanta, which is flooding the world. The American people — of

course, minus the fanatical priests and Church-women — are very glad of the

results of the Parliament. "

 

Q.- " What prospects have you, Swamiji, for the spread of your mission in

England? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " There is every prospect. Before many years elapse a vast

majority of the English people will be Vedantins. There is a greater prospect of

this in England than there is in America. You see, Americans make a fanfaronade

of everything, which is not the case with Englishmen. Even Christians cannot

understand their New Testament, without understanding the Vedanta. The Vedanta

is the rationale of all religions. Without the Vedanta every religion is

superstition; with it everything becomes religion. "

 

Q.- " What is the special trait you noticed in the English character? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " The Englishman goes to practical work as soon as he believes

in something. He has tremendous energy for practical work. There is in the whole

world no human being superior to the English gentleman or lady. That is really

the reason of my faith in them. John Bull is rather a thick-headed gentleman to

deal with. You must push and push an idea till it reaches his brain, but once

there, it does not get out. In England, there was not one missionary or anybody

who said anything against me; not one who tried to make a scandal about me. To

my astonishment, many of my friends belong to the Church of England. I learn,

these missionaries do not come from the higher classes in England. Caste is as

rigorous there as it is here, and the English churchmen belong to the class of

gentlemen. They may differ in opinion from you, but that is no bar to their

being friends with you; therefore, I would give a word of advice to my

countrymen, which is, not to take notice of the vituperative missionaries, now

that I have known that they are. We have 'sized' them, as the Americans say.

Non-recognition is the only attitude to assume towards them. "

 

Q.- " Will you kindly enlighten me, Swamiji, on the Social Reform movements in

America and England? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " Yes. All the social upheavalists, at least the leaders of

them, are trying to find that all their communistic or

equalising theories must have a spiritual basis, and that spiritual basis is in

the Vedanta only. I have been told by several leaders, who used to attend my

lectures, that they required the Vedanta as the basis of the new order of

things. "

 

Q.- " What are your views with regard to the Indian masses? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " Oh, we are awfully poor, and our masses are very ignorant

about secular things. Our masses are very good because poverty here is not a

crime. Our masses are not violent. Many times I was near being mobbed in America

and England, only on account of my dress. But I never heard of such a thing in

India as a man being mobbed because of peculiar dress. In every other respect,

our masses are much more civilised than the European masses. "

 

Q.- " What will you propose for the improvement of our masses? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " We have to give them secular education. We have to follow

the plan laid down by our ancestors, that is, to bring all the ideals slowly

down among the masses. Raise them slowly up, raise them to equality. Impart even

secular knowledge through religion. "

 

Q.- " But do you think, Swamiji, it is a task that can be easily

accomplished? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " It will, of course, have gradually to be worked out. But if

there are enough self-sacrificing young fellows, who, I hope, will work with me,

it can be done tomorrow. It all depends upon the zeal and the self-sacrifice

brought to the task. "

 

Q.- " But if the present degraded condition is due to their past Karma, Swamiji,

how do you think they could get out of it easily, and how do you propose to help

them? "

 

The Swamiji readily answered " Karma is the eternal assertion of human

freedom. If we can bring ourselves down by our Karma, surely it is in our power

to raise ourselves by it. The masses, besides, have not brought themselves down

altogether by their own Karma. So we should give them better environments to

work in. I do not propose any levelling of castes. Caste is a very good thing.

Caste is the plan we want to follow. What caste really is, not one in a million

understands. There is no country in the world without caste. In India, from

caste we reach to the point where there is no caste. Caste is based throughout

on that principle. The plan in India is to make everybody a Brahmin, the Brahmin

being the ideal of humanity.

If you read the history of India you will find that attempts have always been

made to raise the lower classes. Many are the classes that have been raised.

Many more will follow till the whole will become Brahmin. That is the plan. We

have only to raise them without bringing down anybody. And this has mostly to be

done by the Brahmins themselves, because it is the duty of every aristocracy to

dig its own grave; and the sooner it does so, the better for all. No time should

be lost. Indian caste is better than the caste which prevails in Europe or

America. I do not say it is absolutely good. Where would you be if there were no

caste? Where would be your

learning and other things, if there were no caste? There would be nothing left

for the Europeans to study if caste had never existed! The Mohammedans would

have smashed everything to pieces. Where do you find the Indian society standing

still? It is always on the move. Sometimes, as in the times of foreign

invasions, the movement has been slow, at other times quicker. This is what I

say to my countrymen. I do not condemn them. I look into their past. I find

that under the circumstances no nation could do more glorious work. I tell them

that they have done well. I only ask them to do better. "

 

Q.- " What are your views, Swamiji, in regard to the relation of caste to

rituals? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " Caste is continually changing, rituals are continually

changing, so are forms. It is the substance, the principle, that does not

change. It is in the Vedas that we have to study our religion. With the

exception of the Vedas every book must change. The authority of the Vedas is for

all time to come; the

authority of every one of our other books is for the time being. For instance;

one Smriti is powerful for one age, another for another age. Great prophets are

always coming and pointing the way to work. Some prophets worked for the lower

classes, others like Madhva gave to women the right to study the Vedas. Caste

should not go; but should only be readjusted occasionally. Within the old

structure is to be found life enough for the building of two hundred thousand

new ones. It is sheer nonsense to desire the abolition of caste. The new method

is — evolution of the old. "

 

Q.- " Do not Hindus stand in need of social reform? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " We do stand in need of social reform. At times great men

would evolve new ideas of progress, and kings would give them the sanction of

law. Thus social improvements had been in the past made in India, and in modern

times to effect such progressive reforms, we will have first to build up such an

authoritative power. Kings having gone, the power is the people's. We have,

therefore, to wait till the people are educated, till they understand their

needs and are ready and able to solve their problems. The tyranny of the

minority is the worst tyranny in the world. Therefore, instead of frittering

away our energies on ideal reforms, which will never become practical, we had

better go to the root of the evil and make a legislative body, that is to say,

educate our people, so that they may be able to solve their own problems. Until

that is done all these ideal reforms will remain ideals only. The new order of

things is the salvation of the people by the people, and it takes time to make

it workable, especially in India, which has always in the past been governed by

kings. "

 

Q.- " Do you think Hindu society can successfully adopt European social laws? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " No, not wholly. I would say, the combination of the Greek

mind represented by the external European energy added to the Hindu spirituality

would be an ideal society for India. For instance, it is absolutely necessary

for you, instead of frittering away your energy and often talking of idle

nonsense, to learn from the Englishman the idea of prompt obedience to leaders,

the absence of jealousy, the indomitable perseverance and the undying faith in

himself. As soon as he selects a leader for a work, the Englishman sticks to him

through thick and thin and obeys him. Here in India, everybody wants to become a

leader, and there is nobody to obey. Everyone should learn to obey before he can

command. There is no end to our jealousies; and the more important the Hindu,

the more jealous he is. Until this absence of jealousy and obedience to leaders

are learnt by the Hindu, there will be no power of

organization. We shall have to remain the hopelessly confused mob that we are

now, hoping and doing nothing. India has to learn from Europe the conquest of

external nature, and Europe has to learn from India the conquest of internal

nature. Then there will be neither Hindus nor Europeans — there will be the

ideal humanity which has conquered both the natures, the external and the

internal. We have developed one phase of humanity, and they another. It is the

union of the two that is wanted. The word freedom which is the watchword of our

religion really means freedom physically, mentally, and spiritually. "

 

Q.- " What relation, Swamiji, does ritual bear to religion? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " Rituals are the kindergarten of religion. They are

absolutely necessary for the world as it is now; only we shall have to give

people newer and fresher rituals. A party of thinkers must undertake to do this.

Old rituals must be rejected and new ones substituted. "

 

Q.- " Then you advocate the abolition of rituals, don't you? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " No, my watchword is construction, not destruction. Out of

the existing rituals, new ones will have to be evolved. There is infinite power

of development in everything; that is my belief. One atom has the power of the

whole universe at its back. All along, in the history of the Hindu race, there

never was any attempt at destruction, only construction. One sect wanted to

destroy, and they were thrown out of India: They were the Buddhists. We have had

a host of reformers — Shankara, Ramanuja, Madhva, and Chaitanya. These were

great reformers, who always were constructive and built according to the

circumstances of their time. This is our peculiar method of work. All the modern

reformers take to European destructive reformation, which will never do good to

anyone and never did. Only once was a modern reformer mostly constructive, and

that one was Raja Ram Mohan Ray. The progress of the Hindu race has been towards

the realisation of the Vedantic ideals. All history of

Indian life is the struggle for the realisation of the ideal of the Vedanta

through good or bad fortune. Whenever there was any reforming sect or religion

which rejected the Vedantic ideal, it was smashed into nothing. "

 

Q.- " What is your programme of work here? "

 

Swami Vivekananda- " I want to start two institutions, one in Madras and one in

Calcutta, to carry out my plan; and that plan briefly is to bring the Vedantic

ideals into the everyday practical life of the saint or the sinner, of the sage

or the ignoramus, of the Brahmin or the Pariah. "

 

[The Hindu, Madras, February, 1897- Our representative here put to him a few

questions relative to Indian politics; but before the Swami could attempt

anything like an answer, the train steamed up to

the Egmore platform, and the only hurried remark that fell from the Swami was

that he was dead against all political entanglements of

Indian and European problems. The interview then terminated.]