Guest guest Posted May 7, 2002 Report Share Posted May 7, 2002 Namaste, With due respect to Swami Vivekananda's views on his perception of what " chivalry " means, it means in fact, the medieval system of knighthood coupled to the noble qualities a knight was supposed to have had, such as honour, courage, and readiness to help the weak and to protect women. If I recall correctly, it was the great Muslim Saladin who taught King Richard the Lionheart chivalry as the Knights of that time were relative barbarians. Saladin's teachings were imported to Europe where they took hold. Swami Vivekanada's perceptions were therefore flawed in this respect, as chivalry had nothing to do with, and still has nothing to do with a pre-occupation with sex. Having said that, the explosion of world population in all countries, including India, puts a question mark behind the function of sex which is a fact of our creation and necessary for the procreation of all species. If every creature gave it up, there would be no life on this planet. Pranaams Roger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2002 Report Share Posted June 23, 2002 John Manetta who runs the Vedanta Study Circle in Athens sent us a posting on sex and religions (part 2 as under). ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The trap of chivalry etc. *G48.03 Swamiji [swami Vivekananda] once said that the West did not even realize that it is an insult to compliment a lady on her beauty. No Indian woman could bear to be admired by strangers for her beauty or dress. All these compliments are nothing but a form of sex and sex-consciousness. *G48.04 The West is so gross in all this. It does not realize that at the back of so-called chivalry there is always a subtle form of sex-consciousness, sex-instinct and sex-pride. The truly chivalrous person will be chivalrous to all, be they men or women, young or old, but never to woman alone. *G48.05 The spiritual aspirant who really wishes to rise above these subtle but all the more dangerous and tenacious forms of sex-consciousness above his man-consciousness or woman-consciousness -must strictly avoid all wrong ideas of chivalry, even if others criticize him. No aspirant who does not change his attitude towards the other sex, who does not avoid being much in the company of persons of the other sex who are not closely related to him, during the whole time of his Sadhana [spiritual training], and who does not give up all intoxicating and stimulating drinks, can ever make any considerable progress. He is bound to have a fall and sooner or later to give up all spiritual striving and revert to his old mental and physical habits. He can never attain the required purity, and thus never advance. There can be no development of higher consciousness in him who is not conscientious and careful in all these matters and who takes things lightly, making himself believe that there is no real harm in them. *G48.06 Just as there are fashionable people who paint their faces, there are people who paint their minds, and with such a - painted mind - none is able to take up spiritual life in real earnest, and none should take others to task for his failure to advance along the right lines. *G48.07 There is so much carelessness in our lives, so much superficial thinking and acting and feeling, and we are so little wide-awake. Spiritual life is not for the easy-going, superficial, thoughtless person who allows himself to be aimlessly carried along by the different worldly currents that surround him. But most people do not fully realize this. *G48.08 It is not an easy thing to rise above one's defects and limitations to develop a real personality and throw off the old, illusory one that keeps us in fetters of lust and greed and likes and dislikes. Only those who steadily persevere in their Sadhana will be able to do this one day. -(Swamiji) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2002 Report Share Posted June 23, 2002 Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda@b...> wrote: > John Manetta who runs the Vedanta Study Circle in Athens sent > us a posting on sex and religions (part 2 as under). These are excellent references. Wish they were not in parts. Hope these are posted again together as it would be beneficial to refer to them with the search facility even at a later time. with regards, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2002 Report Share Posted June 23, 2002 - " sam43_1999 " <sam43_1999 <Ramakrishna > Sunday, June 23, 2002 03:54 Re: Swami Vivekananda on Chivalry.. (part 2) > Ramakrishna, " Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda@b...> > wrote: > > John Manetta who runs the Vedanta Study Circle in Athens sent > > us a posting on sex and religions (part 2 as under). > > > These are excellent references. Wish they were not in parts. Hope > these are posted again together as it would be beneficial to refer to > them with the search facility even at a later time. > with regards, > > Sam ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Sam John, just told me that his material comes from Swami Yatishwarananda's Class notes on the Gita. Some portion relates to Swami Vivekananda's teachings other comments are mainly from Swami Yatishwarananda. regards jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2002 Report Share Posted June 26, 2002 - " Rajah " <rajah <Ramakrishna > Tuesday, May 07, 2002 01:45 [sri Ramakrishna] Re: Swami Vivekananda on Chivalry.. (part 2) > Namaste, > > With due respect to Swami Vivekananda's views on his > perception of what " chivalry " means, it means in fact, > the medieval system of knighthood coupled to the noble > qualities a knight was supposed to have had, such as > honour, courage, and readiness to help the weak and > to protect women. If I recall correctly, it was the great > Muslim Saladin who taught King Richard the Lionheart chivalry > as the Knights of that time were relative barbarians. Saladin's > teachings were imported to Europe where they took hold. > > Swami Vivekanada's perceptions were therefore flawed in this > respect, as chivalry had nothing to do with, and still has nothing > to do with a pre-occupation with sex. Having said that, the explosion > of world population in all countries, including India, puts a question mark > behind the function of sex which is a fact of our creation and necessary > for the procreation of all species. If every creature gave it up, there > would be no life on this planet. > > Pranaams > Roger > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~response~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dear Roger Swami Vivekananda would be the first one to applaud you for having the courage to say that some of Swami Vivekananda's perceptions were flawed : ) But unfortunately it is far more difficult to fault him than you think. First, we must remember that every teaching of every spiritual giant has to be seen and understood 'in context'. The moment we give up this habit we are open to any misinterpretation we care to impose. Swami Vivekananda was not talking to or talking about medieval people helping the weak. He was addressing the Westerner in the late 1890's. It was considered good manners to open doors for ladies, compliment them on their looks or dress, this was the in-thing. He quickly saw through this. The male was treating the female almost as a 'pet' to be pampered, complimented - an object to be displayed! And this was called chivalry! Hence his sharp comments. Once he was asked by a 'lady' why he was not opening doors for women. I think he retorted.... Why should I ? Are they disabled? This is the way he showed real respect for women. Treat them as equals in every respect. No artificial showmanship in the name of chivalry!! : ) jay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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