Guest guest Posted March 15, 2003 Report Share Posted March 15, 2003 Dear Mathew I am just catching up with my mails so please pardon a late reply: Hell and non-advaitic vedanta ----------------------------- Advaita does not even permit the existence of anything but the self, so the question of elucidating hell could only arise in the context of non-advaitic vedanta. Even here, there is no place for the existence of a place where people are eternally damned. There do exist descriptions of " Naraka " or hell but it is clear that this is only a temporary existence for the soul and people are always reborn until they realise their true state. There is also mention of " asuras " or demons but it is clear that these are not the " devil " . In fact asuras are often shown with many divine qualities who ultimately gain liberation. Ravana, Prahlaada, Mahabali etc come to mind immediately. Hell and Advaita ---------------- There is an interesting incident in which Sri Ramana Maharshi, the great advaitic sage, wrote two verses on Deepavali, also called Naraka Chaturdasi. This festival, in parts of India, celebrates the killing of Narakasura (naraka is hell and asura is demon; so in a way " king of hell " ). In reading them, please remember that hell in vedanta is never a place of eternal damnation and there is not the fear that the word evokes in Abrahamic religions. Here are the verses: He is the king of hell who says that he is the body, which is hell itself. He is Narayana who ascertains who Naraka is, and destroys him with his vision of wisdom, jnana drishti. That is the auspicious day of Naraka Chaturdasi. The false belief that this hell-like house called body is me, is Naraka himself. To destroy that false belief and let the self shine as Self, is Deepavali. --------- Hope this is of some use - " Matthew " <manx@c...> <Vivekananda > Saturday, March 08, 2003 08:35 [Vivekananda] ~HELL~ >is there an official Vedantist interpretation or 'elucidation' of the > " HELL " -concept that repeats itself in so many of the planet's religions? > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The above message came to us recently. Can any of our list members respond? jay _______________ Cricket - World Cup 2003 http://server1.msn.co.in/msnspecials/worldcup03/ News, Views and Match Reports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Dear Friends, Sri Swaminathan has given a very lucid reply on the subject. Unlike other relegions Hinduism does not believe in eternal damnation, so there is actually no hell as such. But our scriptures do speak of swargaloka and narakaloka. These are essentially mental recreations of what the particular person perceives heaven or hell to be. That heaven or hell are mental formations is also supported by many Buddhists (Tibetan Buddhism). We all have a conscience which advises us on every matter. But in the hustle and bustle of our lives we do not listen to it. However our conscience suffers when we do a bad deed and vice versa. These experiences are stored within us but do not affect us while we are in possession of the physical body. Once the protection of the physical body is gone these experiences are released and we go through heaven or hell. For people with strong worldly attachments the period of suffering and enjoyment is long. Those endowed with detachment and spirituality are easily able to cross this stage within a very short time. If we are under the protection of a Sad Guru and receive his benevolent attention we need not worry about such things as heaven or hell. In the Kathamrita we hear Thakur speak desparagingly of suicide as the soul has to pass through a " smoky atmosphere " . Thakurs direct disciples have spoken of " Ramakrishnaloka " where all his devotees will find shelter. Holy Mother has assured all devotees of Sri Ramakrishna that Thakur will appear before them at the time of death. She has also blessed each and every one that this will be their last life. In Bhubaneswar we have two known incidents of spiritual experiences during death. The first was way back in the late 50's or 60's. The devotee was a disciple of Swami Brahmananda. At the time of his death he revealed that Swami Brahmananda (Raja Maharaj) had come to receive him. The second is very recent. The devotee, respected by the monks and devotees of the Ramakrishna Order alike, called all his family members, chatted with them casually for some time, shook hands with one and all and very calmly passed away. It need not be stressed that some very strong spiritual experience made him aware of the time of his death and also helped him face it so calmly and serenely. My point is that sincere devotees of Thakur need not fret about whether they would go to heaven or hell. Regards Jagannath. Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 18, 2003 Report Share Posted March 18, 2003 Dear Jay, In the e-mail that I just received, it was stated: "There do exist descriptions of "Naraka" or hell but it is clear that this is only a temporary existence for the soul and people are always reborn until they realise their true state." Is this a mental or a literal burning hell? Thank you, Amba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 00:46:02 -0800 (PST), Jagannath Chatterjee <jagchat01 wrote: > Thakurs direct disciples have spoken of > " Ramakrishnaloka " where all his devotees will find > shelter. Namaste, Jagannath. I have seen brief mention of Ramakrishnaloka several times before and have looked in my books and on the internet for more information, but without result. I wonder whether any of our readers can supply information and references on this interesting subject. Many thanks. Pranams, Shivaram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 Namaskar , "Namaste, Jagannath.I have seen brief mention of Ramakrishnaloka several times before and have looked in my books and on the internet for more information, but without result. I wonder whether any of our readers can supply information and references on this interesting subject...." I think one of the disciples of Sri Ramakrishna ( not Swami Vivekananda ) said that he would go to "Ramakrishna Loka..." when some topic about about this came up. I have read this myself. But unfortunately cannot recollect where this was exactly. It's in one of the books in my collection . I'll mark this and let you know which book exactly if I come across it again. As far as I know it was just a casual one line mention and not a detailed description or anything. hell and vedanta.... Firstly, why say hell and vedanta ? why not heaven and vedanta ? There are some texts which describe in detail. One such text is "Garuda Purana ". There are a lot of details and vivid descriptions of the kinds of torture people endure in hell. Also about swarga. I tried reading this and closed it half the way in disgust. As far as I can see, it's mostly meant to scare people and put them on the path of the right. Remember, these are puranas and not the principal Upanishads or the Gita on which Sri Sankaracharya wrote commentaries. In the chandogya upanishad, it is mentioned which path people take after they depart from this body. They mention first about realised souls and people who were on the righteous path. Then they talk about the path of sinners. It is said that they would be born in the womb of a bad person or a low animal etc. So hell might verily be right here. Heaven or hell is only in the mind, as much as this world is in the mind. It is because of our ignorance that we perceive things this way and not the way they actually are. Om Tat Sat, Guru Venkat Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 19, 2003 Report Share Posted March 19, 2003 Namaste, A fine discussion of 'loka-s' is found at URL: http://www.hinduismtoday.com/1999/9/1999-9-11.html 'saalokya' mukti is a recognised belief in Hinduism. One has to experience different lokas-s depending on one's 'sanskaras', until one attains 'saayujya' state [ahaM brahmaasmi, sarvaM khalvidaM brahma', etc.]. Thakur himself could recognise among his disciples those who had accompanied Jesus, or Chaitanya, and so on. There are several passages in the Gospel by M. where he discusses life after death, esp. his conversations with Bankim Chandra and Girish are very revealing. Regards, Sunder Ramakrishna , Shivaram <conte@i...> wrote: > On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 00:46:02 -0800 (PST), Jagannath Chatterjee > <jagchat01> wrote: > > > Thakurs direct disciples have spoken of > > " Ramakrishnaloka " where all his devotees will find > > shelter. > > Namaste, Jagannath. > > I have seen brief mention of Ramakrishnaloka several times before and have > looked in my books and on the internet for more information, but without > result. I wonder whether any of our readers can supply information and > references on this interesting subject. > > Many thanks. > > Pranams, > Shivaram Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 20, 2003 Report Share Posted March 20, 2003 Ramakrishna , Guru Venkat <v_vedanti> wrote: > > Namaskar , > > " Namaste, Jagannath. > > I have seen brief mention of Ramakrishnaloka several times before and > have > looked in my books and on the internet for more information, but > without > result. I wonder whether any of our readers can supply information and > references on this interesting subject.... " > > I think one of the disciples of Sri Ramakrishna ( not Swami Vivekananda ) said that he would go to " Ramakrishna Loka... " when some topic about about this came up. I have read this myself. But unfortunately cannot recollect where this was exactly. It's in one of the books in my collection . I'll mark this and let you know which book exactly if I come across it again. As far as I know it was just a casual one line mention and not a detailed description or anything. > > hell and vedanta.... > > Firstly, why say hell and vedanta ? why not heaven and vedanta ? > > There are some texts which describe in detail. One such text is " Garuda Purana " . There are a lot of details and vivid descriptions of the kinds of torture people endure in hell. Also about swarga. I tried reading this and closed it half the way in disgust. As far as I can see, it's mostly meant to scare people and put them on the path of the right. Remember, these are puranas and not the principal Upanishads or the Gita on which Sri Sankaracharya wrote commentaries. > > In the chandogya upanishad, it is mentioned which path people take after they depart from this body. They mention first about realised souls and people who were on the righteous path. Then they talk about the path of sinners. It is said that they would be born in the womb of a bad person or a low animal etc. So hell might verily be right here. > > Heaven or hell is only in the mind, as much as this world is in the mind. It is because of our ignorance that we perceive things this way and not the way they actually are. > > Om Tat Sat, > > Guru Venkat > Namaste, Are the puranas considered valid scriptures? These scriptures speak of a place of torment, but then we say that it is all in the mind. My question is, is it all in the mind like the dream state on this earth plane, which is real enough to us in that we have physical as well as mental pain? Of course, not having a psysical body, you would not be able to feel physical pain, unless it can be imagined. So is this hell on both mental and physical in that it is imaged? Does it differ in any way from the Christian teachings other than its duration? If it is only mental pain, then wouldn't one just be able to change his thoughts and no longer suffer, just one is able to do on earth? > > > > > > Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 21, 2003 Report Share Posted March 21, 2003 Namaskar, "Are the puranas considered valid scriptures? These scriptures speak of a place of torment, but then we say that it is all in the mind. My question is, is it all in the mind like the dream state on this earth plane, which is real enough to us in that we have physical as well as mental pain? Of course, not having a psysical body, you would not be able to feel physical pain, unless it can be imagined. So is this hell on both mental and physical in that it is imaged? Does it differ in any way from the Christian teachings other than its duration? If it is only mental pain, then wouldn't one just be able to change his thoughts and no longer suffer, just one is able to do on earth? " Puranas are not treated on the same level as that of the Upanishad, Gita and the Brahma Sutra Bhasya. Because there is no established time in history when these were written and by whom. Also, they are more about Saguna Brahman. But it's not about validity or invalidity. It's about which path you would take to reach the Real. According to each's prarabdha one follows whichever path is suitable. A Baktha may very well find great benefit by studying the lives of Gods in the Puranas. If you follow the path of Jnana, you may find the Upanishads appealing to you. The end result of Jnana and Bakthi are one and the same. Again, only the principal Upanishads translated by Sri Sankaracharya are treated with much reverence. These are, I think about 10 in number. I think totally there are about 100 upanishads. That which we think is this physical world is not really physical. It is spiritual. From the stand point of the real, this world is as much unreal as our dreams are. You are saying that we change our thoughts and no longer suffer. Is this possible ? As long as you have thoughts you are identifying yourself with something. The dreamer suffers the pains endured in his dreams as long as the dream persists. Only when he wakes up does he realise that it was all a dream and he really did not suffer. All that he saw in the dream was his own creation. It is only when we realise that we are neither this body nor this mind will we stop suffering. Then we will realise that all that we see is our own creation. I haven't gone through much of the puranas or the Bible to know about christianity to make a comparison about descriptions of hell. But I know Jesus has said that "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" . Om Tat Sat Guru Venkat Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Namaste, Your answer was very interesting. Thank you so much for addressing it. I feel that I am having a hard time explaining myelf. I agree that this world is a dream, that we even dream the body, and that we suffer mentally as well as physically. The physical because we have a body and feel pain, but I feel that we suffer mentally due to much of the way we think, that is, if we think negative thoughts we suffer more. Yet we can not get rid of all of our painful thoughts. For example, if a loved one dies, we suffer, when others suffer, we suffer and so on. So since this world is not real, perhaps the other world isn't real either. Only God is real. But lets say someone goes to the hell of the puranas, if it does exist. Which is another question. Does it exist? Anyway, would that person create a physcial body in his/her own mind and then feel the pain of a burning fire and yet not be destroyed but continue to burn and therefore be in physical pain until his time there ended? The Christian belief is, when we die, we go to a burning hell and our body burns forever and we feel this pain. Or is does this purana have nothing to do with fire, that fire is translated as "burning desires," and so it is just that a person is in mental anguish there, but if so, why could this person not change his thoughts and suffer less while there just as people can on this earth plane do when they change their thoughts? Thanks again. Amba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 22, 2003 Report Share Posted March 22, 2003 Namaskar, " I feel that I am having a hard time explaining myelf. I agree that this world is a dream, that we even dream the body, and that we suffer mentally as well as physically. The physical because we have a body and feel pain, but I feel that we suffer mentally due to much of the way we think, that is, if we think negative thoughts we suffer more. Yet we can not get rid of all of our painful thoughts. For example, if a loved one dies, we suffer, when others suffer, we suffer and so on.So since this world is not real, perhaps the other world isn't real either. Only God is real. But lets say someone goes to the hell of the puranas, if it does exist. Which is another question. Does it exist? Anyway, would that person create a physcial body in his/her own mind and then feel the pain of a burning fire and yet not be destroyed but continue to burn and therefore be in physical pain until his time there ended? The Christian belief is, when we die, we go to a burning hell and our body burns forever and we feel this pain. Or is does this purana have nothing to do with fire, that fire is translated as "burning desires," and so it is just that a person is in mental anguish there, but if so, why could this person not change his thoughts and suffer less while there just as people can on this earth plane do when they change their thoughts? " we do not have eternal damnation. so the theory of burning forever in hell does not hold good in Vedanta. Everybody will get Moksha. It is just a question of when. Suffering of loved ones is very painful to bear. Some people say that it is more painful than your own suffering. There is a good story in the Mahabaratha where Dharma sees his own brothers and wife suffering in hell for a moment before he goes to heaven. Seems he told a lie to get somebody killed and had to endure a moment in hell consisting of such a vision. So even the most virtuous endure such painful situations where they see their loved ones suffering and cannot bear it. Even the most knowledged ones break apart when their loved ones die. That is why you need Bakthi and Grace. Thoughts will come, and painful thoughts are more unbearable. But to whom are these thoughts arising ? Where are they coming from ? Mind is just a collection of thoughts. If you are not the body and the mind , who is suffering ? I do not know what is written about how the soul passes through various spheres or lokas and when a body is created etc. But I would say its better not to ponder too much on how the departed ones are suffering or burning. The most difficult thought to lose is the thought of ' I am the body ' . It is called Hridaya Granti ( Knot of the heart ) and is severed only at the time of death for normal persons. Om Tat Sat Guru Venkat Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 In the hardback edition of the book My Guru and His Disciple, Christopher Isherwood writes on page 337 " My own problem will be, presumably, that I find myself in the Ramakirshna loka- and how my individualistic ego shrinks from that prospect! " So, it seems likely that this idea of a Ramakrishna loka must have been available somewhere in the teachings of Swami Prabhavananda. I have seen brief mention of Ramakrishnaloka several times before and > have > looked in my books and on the internet for more information, but > without > result. I wonder whether any of our readers can supply information and > references on this interesting subject.... " > > I think one of the disciples of Sri Ramakrishna ( not Swami Vivekananda ) said that he would go to " Ramakrishna Loka... " when some topic about about this came up. I have read this myself. But unfortunately cannot recollect where this was exactly. It's in one of the books in my collection . I'll mark this and let you know which book exactly if I come across it again. As far as I know it was just a casual one line mention and not a detailed description or anything. > > hell and vedanta.... > > Firstly, why say hell and vedanta ? why not heaven and vedanta ? > > There are some texts which describe in detail. One such text is " Garuda Purana " . There are a lot of details and vivid descriptions of the kinds of torture people endure in hell. Also about swarga. I tried reading this and closed it half the way in disgust. As far as I can see, it's mostly meant to scare people and put them on the path of the right. Remember, these are puranas and not the principal Upanishads or the Gita on which Sri Sankaracharya wrote commentaries. > > In the chandogya upanishad, it is mentioned which path people take after they depart from this body. They mention first about realised souls and people who were on the righteous path. Then they talk about the path of sinners. It is said that they would be born in the womb of a bad person or a low animal etc. So hell might verily be right here. > > Heaven or hell is only in the mind, as much as this world is in the mind. It is because of our ignorance that we perceive things this way and not the way they actually are. > > Om Tat Sat, > > Guru Venkat > > > > > > > > Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 Namaste, shinkai_birx. Thank you for this interesting quotation from Christopher Isherwood. I will look into the Swamiji's writings to see if there is more. Also, I wish to express my gratitude to Sunder Hattangadi, and to Guru Venkat for their helpful replies. (Forgive if I've missed someone.) Your comments are helping me to form a clearer conception of what is meant by Ramakrishnaloka. Pranams, Shivaram On Fri, 28 Mar 2003 17:16:25 -0000, shinkai_birx <crbirx wrote: > > In the hardback edition of the book My Guru and His Disciple, Christopher > Isherwood writes on page 337 " My own problem will be, presumably, that I > find myself in the Ramakirshna loka-and how my individualistic ego > shrinks from that prospect! " > > So, it seems likely that this idea of a Ramakrishna loka must have been > available somewhere in the teachings of Swami Prabhavananda. > > > I have seen brief mention of Ramakrishnaloka several times before and >> have looked in my books and on the internet for more information, but >> without result. I wonder whether any of our readers can supply >> information > and >> references on this interesting subject.... " >> >> I think one of the disciples of Sri Ramakrishna ( not Swami > Vivekananda ) said that he would go to " Ramakrishna Loka... " when some > topic about about this came up. I have read this myself. But > unfortunately cannot recollect where this was exactly. It's in one of the > books in my collection . I'll mark this and let you know which book > exactly if I come across it again. As far as I know it was just a casual > one line mention and not a detailed description or anything. >> >> hell and vedanta.... >> >> Firstly, why say hell and vedanta ? why not heaven and vedanta ? >> >> There are some texts which describe in detail. One such text > is " Garuda Purana " . There are a lot of details and vivid descriptions of > the kinds of torture people endure in hell. Also about swarga. I tried > reading this and closed it half the way in disgust. As far as I can see, > it's mostly meant to scare people and put them on the path of the right. > Remember, these are puranas and not the principal Upanishads or the Gita > on which Sri Sankaracharya wrote commentaries. >> >> In the chandogya upanishad, it is mentioned which path people take > after they depart from this body. They mention first about realised souls > and people who were on the righteous path. Then they talk about the path > of sinners. It is said that they would be born in the womb of a bad > person or a low animal etc. So hell might verily be right here. >> >> Heaven or hell is only in the mind, as much as this world is in the > mind. It is because of our ignorance that we perceive things this way and > not the way they actually are. >> >> Om Tat Sat, >> >> Guru Venkat >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > desktop! > > > > > Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah > Vivekananda Centre London > http://www.vivekananda.co.uk > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2003 Report Share Posted March 29, 2003 Dear Friends, I am writing this entirely from memory but Ramakrishna loka has been refered to by Swami Sivananda and Swami Premeshananda. If we ponder on the vision of the wife of Sri Balaram Basu who saw Sri Ramakrishna alight from the sky on a chariot and take her husband away at the time of death, it sort of reinforces the existence of Ramakrishnaloka. Regards Jagannath --- shinkai_birx <crbirx wrote: > > In the hardback edition of the book My Guru and > His Disciple, > Christopher Isherwood writes on page 337 " My own > problem will be, > presumably, that I find myself in the Ramakirshna > loka- and how my > individualistic ego shrinks from that prospect! " > > So, it seems likely that this idea of a > Ramakrishna loka must have > been available somewhere in the teachings of Swami > Prabhavananda. > Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2003 Report Share Posted March 30, 2003 Namaste, Thakurji himself has implied this indirectly . When Ma Sarada was about to take the bangles off her wrist (a custom widows followed) after Thakur passed away, he came to her in a vision, and asked her to keep them on, as he " had only gone to another room " . He has also mentioned elsewhere that he would take birth again in another 300 years pointing in the N-E direction. He recognised Rakhal (later Sw. Brahmananda) as one of the shepherd boy companions during his incarnation as Krishna. It may be inferred that in his next avatara, he will bring with him some from this 'loka' that would fulfil his mission then. As Krisnhna says in the Gita: prakR^iti.n svaamavashhTabhya visR^ijaami punaH punaH . bhuutagraamamimaM kR^itsnamavashaM prakR^itervashaat.h .. 9\-8.. Regards, Sunder Ramakrishna , Jagannath Chatterjee <jagchat01> wrote: > Dear Friends, > > I am writing this entirely from memory but Ramakrishna > loka has been refered to by Swami Sivananda and Swami > Premeshananda. If we ponder on the vision of the wife > of Sri Balaram Basu who saw Sri Ramakrishna alight > from the sky on a chariot and take her husband away at > the time of death, it sort of reinforces the existence > of Ramakrishnaloka. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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