Maya and Atman

[Guest guest]

The following interesting response from Jayakaran

Please feel free to reply........ jay

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

-

" G Jayakaran " <jayakar_krishna

" Vivekananda Centre " <vivekananda

Thursday, July 24, 2003 03:35

Re: Fw: [sri Ramakrishna] Re: Fw: further clarification

 

 

thanks mr.Harish,

 

but you are not at all coming to my point. first you said you

have limited knowledge, then my question is why the same one now

having the limited knowledge but actually it has full knowledge.

please tell me how the full knowledge come under the control of

illusion. your example of playing musical instrument, you marked

that i have no knowledge of that musical instrument before i

learned that. if that is true then we are not the one first, the

one is having full knowledge. we will become one means you are

totaly against the Bhagavat Gita. In Gita it is clearly

instructed that Sprit is never changed(2nd chapter). then how we

came from that one or we will merge to that one. it means it is

changing. so it is not spritual.

 

but brhamam is never changed.

 

and one more doubt i am having. According to your statement is

this world is maya and that brahmam is original. then why you

build so many hospitals, educational institution. why are you

very struggling to protect this illusion?

 

you finally addressed his lotus feet. whose lotus feet? if we are

all one then why i should address his lotus feet? why don't our?

 

i am expecting your reply.

 

thanking you

jayakaran.

 

=====================in response to========================

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003 Vivekananda Centre wrote :

 

-

" harish_gadde " <harish_gadde

<Ramakrishna >

Tuesday, July 22, 2003 08:54

[sri Ramakrishna] Re: Fw: further clarification

 

 

Dear Jayakaran,

 

In my limited knowledge I will try to give an analogy which might help

you clear your doubts.

Suppose you have decided to act in a play and also suppose

that you are very good at playing a piano. While you are acting in this

play, owing to several poignant and emotional situations you have

totally identified yourself with the character you are playing and

forgot completely about your true identity..will you be able to play

a piano in the height of such an emotional situation as skillfully as

before..

I'd bet that you would be unable to.

Just so, all that we see and perceive around is God's play and

we are the actors in it. We have taken certain roles upon ourselves

in this play and soon enough we forgot our real Selves. as soon as we

realize this and come out of this false identification totally, the

knowledge will be again yours. The knowledge was never lost, it was only

limited by your ignorance(as a cloud limits the sun).

 

Hope this helps.

At His Lotus Feet,

Harish.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jayakaran,

 

Please allow me to present my views on this

discussion.

 

There seem to be 4 distinct paths which may be taken

to reach the realization of what we and the world

really are. These are Jnana, Karma, Bhakti and

Raja-Yoga. Various " combos " or mixtures of these

paths may also be taken.

 

In intself, the path of Jnana is for people who are

more inclined towards reasoning, logical discussions,

self analysis. It is supposed to be the fastest,

narrowest, most difficult path. With my limited

knowledge, it seems to me that you are more inclined

towards this path.

 

The path of Karma is for people who are very active by

nature and would like to be involved in works of

various kinds. The building of hospitals, educational

institutions etc. and their running is a good set of

activites for the followers of the path of Karma. Of

course more mundane activities (such as those

performed by the housewife and the butcher of the

Vyadha Gita) are also " good enough " .

 

The path of Bhakti is for people who like to adore

beauty and grandeur. It is these people who see the

feet of God and Holy Men to be as beautiful and lovely

and adorable as a lotus.

 

So, the illusion of a Jnani is put to good use by the

Karmi and the Bhakta !

 

You say,

> we will become one means you are totaly against the

Bhagavat Gita. In Gita it is

> clearly instructed that Sprit is never changed(2nd

chapter). then how we

> came from that one or we will merge to that one. it

means it is changing. so it is not spritual.

 

With your kind of reasoning, I think the Gita itself

is against itself !

Here are some instructions :

The Spirit is never changed. You are the spirit. You

should Bow down to me. You Should worship me. Then you

will reach me.

You surely can spot the inconsistency here itself.

 

In my humble opinion, the kinds of questions you are

asking are difficult to resolve on groups such as

this. Please approach a Swami of the Ramakrishna

Order and put these questions to him.

 

With best wishes and prayers,

Ashish

 

> -

> " G Jayakaran " <jayakar_krishna

>

> thanks mr.Harish,

>

> but you are not at all coming to my point. first

> you said you

> have limited knowledge, then my question is why the

> same one now

> having the limited knowledge but actually it has

> full knowledge.

> please tell me how the full knowledge come under

> the control of

> illusion. your example of playing musical

> instrument, you marked

> that i have no knowledge of that musical instrument

> before i

> learned that. if that is true then we are not the

> one first, the

> one is having full knowledge. we will become one

> means you are

> totaly against the Bhagavat Gita. In Gita it is

> clearly

> instructed that Sprit is never changed(2nd

> chapter). then how we

> came from that one or we will merge to that one.

> it means it is

> changing. so it is not spritual.

>

> but brhamam is never changed.

>

> and one more doubt i am having. According to your

> statement is

> this world is maya and that brahmam is original.

> then why you

> build so many hospitals, educational institution.

> why are you

> very struggling to protect this illusion?

>

> you finally addressed his lotus feet. whose lotus

> feet? if we are

> all one then why i should address his lotus feet?

> why don't our?

>

> i am expecting your reply.

>

> thanking you

> jayakaran.

>

> -

> " harish_gadde " <harish_gadde

>

> Dear Jayakaran,

>

> In my limited knowledge I will try to give an

> analogy which might help

> you clear your doubts.

> Suppose you have decided to act in a play and also

> suppose

> that you are very good at playing a piano. While you

> are acting in this

> play, owing to several poignant and emotional

> situations you have

> totally identified yourself with the character you

> are playing and

> forgot completely about your true identity..will you

> be able to play

> a piano in the height of such an emotional situation

> as skillfully as

> before..

> I'd bet that you would be unable to.

> Just so, all that we see and perceive around is

> God's play and

> we are the actors in it. We have taken certain roles

> upon ourselves

> in this play and soon enough we forgot our real

> Selves. as soon as we

> realize this and come out of this false

> identification totally, the

> knowledge will be again yours. The knowledge was

> never lost, it was only

> limited by your ignorance(as a cloud limits the

> sun).

>

> Hope this helps.

> At His Lotus Feet,

> Harish.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr.Jayakaran,

 

I will try to answer your following doubt:

 

> and one more doubt i am having. According to your statement is

> this world is maya and that brahmam is original. then why you

> build so many hospitals, educational institution. why are you

> very struggling to protect this illusion?

 

Even though we know that the world is an illusion, we need to build

hospitals etc. to protect this body and mind by which most of us

identify ourselves. If you read the life history of Sri Thakur, we

see that Sri Totapuri comes and teaches him Vedanta and within 6

months Sri Thakur achieves Nirvikalpa Samadhi, the highest spiritual

state that took 30 years for Sri Totapuri to achieve. As Sri

Totapuri was a advaitin who doesn't recognize the existence of this

world, he was naked, didn't bow down to the images and forms and

ridiculed Sri Thakur when he took the names of different Gods. But

later on he had to undergo some ailment in his body which he thought

he could ignore since he doesn't identify himself with it. Even

though he tried hard not to bring his well trained mind to the body

level during meditation, the pain was so horrible, he couldn't do

that. Finally he went to the temple of Divine mother and prayed to

her to reduce his pain and was relieved. So, we see that it's not

easy to get rid of identifying ourselves with body and mind. As Sri

Thakur says, this maya or illusion is a projection from of the

Brahman and a true devotee sees that Brahman has become part of it

just as a thread makes a cloth by becoming a part of it. If u feel

that my answer is not satisfactory, please let me know.

 

We bow down to his lotus feet who is the source of all the energy,

purity and beyond the power of nature whom we call Paramatman. If ur

successful in identifying urselves with the atman, no longer identify

urselves with body or mind and r able to see the same atman in others

then u can address as our lotus feet. It fits for people like Sri

Sankara, Vivekananda and Thakur to say SIVOHAM(I am same as Lord

Siva), but it will be a mere utterance like a parrot if we can't

reach that state.

 

With love and respect

Prasad

[Guest guest]

Dear Jayakaran,

 

You are taking the Advaita stance. That is good. It is

the path of the Jnani. But the disciples of Thakur

generally prefer the path of Bhakti, which Thakur also

advocated. Thakur used to say; " When in a flute I can

play seven variations in tune why should I limit

myself to only one? " .

 

In this world, we can say that there is nothing, we

can also say that there is everything. Though the

views are in absolute contrast but both are true. So

in my view your doubts are genuine but what Harish has

said is also a fine explanation.

 

I suggest you read the Kathamrita, the works of

Shankara and also the books on Sri Ramana Maharshi and

his teachings for getting an idea about the subject.

But always remember in order to understand the

teachings one should approach the texts with humility

and openness of mind.

 

Yours,

Jagannath.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Jayakaran,

 

My opinion is that this earthly existence is not all that undesirable. Maya does make us blind and keeps us ignorant of our glory - our oneness with the Divine. However, I think that this is purposeful, the purpose being the manifestation of Divine in the Physical. If all are liberated, what will be left here, to manifest the Devine on this earth in the physical? Evolution is constantly divinizing us and one day, it might be possible to manifest the Divine in His entirety in this very physical body that we somehow treatas an obstacle rather than an instrument of liberation. One way to realize Aatman is to reject everything that is not Aatman and ultimately lose our I-Ness by merging this salt doll called “I” into the Ocean of the Aatman. The other way is to keep this "I" and transform it to the point that it manifests the Divine and enjoys His constant communion right here. Maya is keeping

our “I” in tact, but also has it own agenda of integrating this “I” with the Aatman right here in earth. Maybe the liberation of the species is of importance to Maya rather than realization of a few individuals.

 

Thanks & Regards

Aravinda Rao

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri Jayakaran,

here are my thoughts on your questions. I think they are quite valid

and most spiritual aspirants at one time or other ask hese

questions. At least I have asked them!!

(These questions have been very well answered in various lectures by

Swami Vivekananda. He has given excellent analogies to arrive at

these points. If you read Jnana Yoga portion of Swamiji you might

find the answers given by him )

 

> but you are not at all coming to my point. first you said you

> have limited knowledge, then my question is why the same one now

> having the limited knowledge but actually it has full knowledge.

> please tell me how the full knowledge come under the control of

> illusion

 

The limited knowledge is for the individual. The individual is just

the mind and the body. These are always limited in nature. It never

becomes one of full knowledge. The Atman, knowing which everything

is known cannot be known. Because the mind being limited in nature

would only try and see it within a boundary.You can only realise at

the final stage of your spiritual goal 'That I Am'.

The Atman is never under the control of Maya. It is our error that

we see it this way. So removing this error is the sadhana.

One eg. given is , Prakriti the promordial dancer is dancing in

front of the Purusha the pure self. The purusha has closed his eyes.

The moment purusha opens his eyes, Prakriti feels shy and goes away.

The purusha then realises that there never was a Prakriti and that

all was only he.

There never is a beginning or end to Maya and Brahman. So where will

you find the beginning ? Only if there is a beginning can you go

there and say that at that point in time the illusion began. It is a

endless question. ( again, pl. see if you can read Swamiji's words

on this. He attacks at the construct of the question and proves its

logically impossible to ask this question ).

 

>we will become one means you are

> totaly against the Bhagavat Gita. In Gita it is clearly

> instructed that Sprit is never changed(2nd chapter). then how we

> came from that one or we will merge to that one. it means it is

> changing. so it is not spritual.

 

True, the Gita says that the spirit is unchanged. Who says you are

changing ? What changes is your body and mind with time. The spirit

is always everchanging. The mind and body being fleeting in nature

will be destroyed with time, as all else is. Mind and body is only

in your consciousness. This again, is only reflected consciousness (

the jiva ) of the pure consciousness ( Atman ). This never changed.

 

 

> and one more doubt i am having. According to your statement is

> this world is maya and that brahmam is original. then why you

> build so many hospitals, educational institution. why are you

> very struggling to protect this illusion?

 

true. we do not have to. why even be good ? why not enjoy life and

get on with it ? why not rob your neighbor and take his money ?

why cannot you do it ? because it is not in your nature.everybody

wants to be happy. some feel happy helping others. some feel happy

hurting others. in one way or other it is only happiness that

everybody seeks. why ? Because the true nature of every person is

only Sat-Chit-Anandam. To exist, be aware and be happy. Beyond this

is the true state. The Nirguna Brahman. It is only with knowledge

you reach here.

The struggle is not to protect the illusion. It is to remove the

illusion.The struggle is to help humanity to reach is path. How can

you impart knowledge to a suffering person. ? who are you helping if

all is you ?

Sankara says that the world is an illusion only for the realised

person. Not for the jiva who is caught in it. It is every whit as

real. we do not know why we have to struggle. But it is due to this

struggle that we are progressing, even if its a small step.

 

Hope my answers help.

 

Om Tat Sat

Guru Venkat

[Guest guest]

Dear Jayakaran,

 

Sorry I couldnt reply to you earlier for various

reasons.

 

You have raised several interesting questions. I

think, the best starting point to find answers to your

questions is Shankaracharya's " Vivekachudamani "

available as " The crest jewel of discrimination "

in English with commentary by Christopher Isherwood

and Swami Prabhavananda. Please read it carefully and

thoroughly and ponder over it.You may obtain at any of

the Ramakrishna Math centers or at the following

websites.

http://www.sriramakrishnamath.org/

http://www.amazon.com/

Also please read Volumes I and II of Swamiji's

Complete Works.

 

The questions you have raised have been answered

already by respected members of our group. However I

have a point or two to make which I have stated below.

 

Regarding the question you raised on the example I

have given: I started with the assumption that you

already know very well how to play the musical

instrument. So the question of learning to play this

instrument does not arise at all. You already know how

to play it. The knowledge is never learnt, it is

always there. Hence your inference does not hold.

There may be other fallacies in the example I gave,

but definitely not the one you hinted at.

 

Also you say that Brahman is unchanging. On this point

I have two views

1) When you say Brahman is unchanging, it is very

important to understand the point/frame of reference.

It is normally understood that this statement

is made from a spiritual viewpoint.If " Everything is

Brahman " I think that " Brahman is unchanging " does not

hold to the physical and mental planes, because

everyday we see several things changing around us on

these planes. You may say that only form of the things

change, while their essence remain the same. True, but

while we still are on the physical and mental planes,

the change in form is real and has to be acknowledged

thus. The spiritual viewpoint is obtained when you can

stand out this world(outside the wheel,as swamiji

would

put it), but it is a very tough thing to do and may be

1 in a million can do it...

 

2) Also how can we limit Brahman by saying it never

changes? I think it is something that is changing,

unchanging and something beyond change. Our mind

only percieves only two aspects, change and the lack

of it. But what if there is another dimension to it

which is beyond these two. Now I know I am sounding a

little absurd, but then again it is all the

stranglehold that mind has on us.

 

> please tell me how the full knowledge come under

> the control of illusion.

 

Please read Vivekachudamani. This is a very subtle

question and I think one of the reasons could be " loss

of discrimination between real and unreal " . Then again

you can ask what caused this loss of discrimination.

There is probably no end to such questioning. Maya is

said to be without a beginning and an end, in which

case your question itself probably does not hold!! But

for the individuals maya has an end, when the

individual realises his/her true self. collectively

Maya is endless. I am not sure if I made any sense,

but please do read Vivekachudamani and enlighten us

further in this direction.

 

and finally, no offence, I hope you yourself are

trying to answer the questions you raised before

putting them to the group. I firmly believe that

answers to all questions lie within ourselves. Only we

have not the patience to search long enough for them

many of the times and seek the easier route. The

important thing is to atleast try to search for the

answers oneself.

 

Jai Sri Ramakrishna.

Harish.

 

 

> -

> " G Jayakaran " <jayakar_krishna

>

 

> your example of playing musical

> instrument, you marked

> that i have no knowledge of that musical instrument

> before i

> learned that. if that is true then we are not the

> one first, the

> one is having full knowledge. we will become one

> means you are

> totaly against the Bhagavat Gita.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Harishji,

 

You need not sound apologetic about your response. It is an excellent reply. And you are jolly well right when you say that the answers lie within ourselves; we should take the trouble to search them out. Till such times we do not get the answers we should employ a tool called "FAITH". As Lord Jesus said, "If you have faith the size of a mustard seed you will be saved". To those who doubt the words of Thakur I reply, "Who are we do doubt him when such a gigantic person like Swamiji has tested him to the core and accepted all that he has said?".

 

Questions are bound to crop up. The best way to treat them is to increase our level of awareness by putting into practice the teachings of the Holy Trio. As our awareness increases everything falls into place and our questions are answered.

 

Take the Kathamrita for instance. It seems a very simple and easy to read and understand. But you will find that even the seniormost Swami's of the R K Math read it regularly. This is because as they progress on the path they find out the inner meaning of the "simple words" that Thakur has said.

 

Regards,

Jagannath.