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Free will and free choice?

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I will try to answer this with limited knowledge available to me. It is mentioned in the Kathamrita that Thakur said, " There is no such thing as free will. Even the leaves of a tree cannot move without his will". To a question about the futility of good and evil in such a case Sri Ramakrishna preferred to dodge it by saying, " I cannot reveal more." Perhaps the truth in this case is best kept secret as we ignorant people may commit mistakes and attribute it to "Gods will".

 

However Revered Swami Bhuteshanandaji Maharaj makes a subtle distinction between free will and destiny by giving the following example. Two cows are tied to two different trees in a meadow. One cow sits down without eating the grass around him. The other eats the grass in the entire reachable area. The cowherd then comes and relocates the second cow to a fresh tree.

 

So our being tied to the tree is destiny. Eating the grass within our reach is free will. When we exercise our free will judiciously God gives us a fresh start.

 

Regards

Jagannath.

 

 

Arkady Faingor <soph108 wrote:

 

This has always been a very argueable topic: do we have the free will and free choice or not? Can we actually choose which action to take or it has all been already pre-defined and pre-determined?

 

Some advaita philosophers say that we have no free choice and that whichever action we take is pre-defined beforehand. I have been trying to find the statements of Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda about that, but could not. So, could somebody suggest what is their position in this regard? Thank you in advance.

 

Soph108.

 

 

Sri Ramakrishnaye NamahVivekananda Centre Londonhttp://www.vivekananda.co.uk

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" Free will is a misnomer. Will can never be free. How can it be?...The will

of man is bound, but that which is the foundation of that will is eternally

free. " [i.e., Pure Consciousness]

Swami Vivekananda, CW. Vol II, p. 283.

" If you think you are free, free you are this minute, and if you think you

are bound, bound you will be.

Of these two, which will you take? I will make bondage the delusion. "

S.V. CW Vol. II, 196.

Yogeshananda

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Hi!

 

When we act/perceive through layers of conditioning, we do not have

free will.

 

When we act/perceive directly without the layers of conditioning, we

have free will.

 

In that sense, the only free will we have is to remove all

conditioning….I wonder!

 

warm regards

 

 

Ramakrishna , Arkady Faingor <soph108>

wrote:

> This has always been a very argueable topic: do we have the free

will and free choice or not? Can we actually choose which action to

take or it has all been already pre-defined and pre-determined?

>

> Some advaita philosophers say that we have no free choice and that

whichever action we take is pre-defined beforehand. I have been

trying to find the statements of Sri Ramakrishna and Swami

Vivekananda about that, but could not. So, could somebody suggest

what is their position in this regard? Thank you in advance.

>

> Soph108.

>

>

>

>

>

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Ramakrishna , " SS " <sudhakar_sunil@h...> wrote:

> Hi!

>

> When we act/perceive through layers of conditioning, we do not have

> free will.

>

> When we act/perceive directly without the layers of conditioning,

we

> have free will.

>

> In that sense, the only free will we have is to remove all

> conditioning….I wonder!

>

 

Namaste,

 

http://www.asanet.com/sringeri/journal/vol1no2/golden.html

 

Free Will

" ......You are responsible for what you are today. You are

responsible for your pain and suffering and misery. You cannot escape

your responsibility by blaming fate, for fate is of your own making,

or by blaming God, for he is but divine dispenser of fruits in

accordance with the merits of your actions. You have none to blame

but yourself for your present state of affairs.

Fate is nothing but the sum total of the results of your past actions.

By exercising your free will in the past you brought on the resultant

fate (i.e., present).

By exercising your free will in the present, wipe out the past record

and work for a better future. Whether for acquiring more happiness or

for reducing misery, you have to exercise your free will in the

present.................. "

Sri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamiji (Sringeri Mathadhipati 1912-

1954)

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

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Hello!

 

Thank you all very much for giving your ideas about this topic!

 

There is one consideration that goes with the concept of free will and free choice. And that is the law of karma. If we accept that the law of karma exists (as I believe is the case with vedanta of Sri Ramakrishna and Swami Vivekananda) then we cannot deny that everyone has a free choice to select which action to perform and which not. Otherwise, how could we be "judged" by the law of karma? If no one could choose whether to comit this act or the other then based on what people receive certain fruits of their actions?

 

There is a well-known saying "you will ripe as you sow", which is actually the short way to express the law of karma. This implies that we must be free to choose what we sow, otherwise everything is pre-determined and the law of karma becomes meaningless.

 

Thus, I believe that the acceptance of the law of karma implies the acceptance of the presence of free will and free choice even in the conditioned state of our existence.

Moreover, Swami Vivekananda said that "Karma is that what assumes the ability and strength to alter the current situation" (Vivekananda in Indian Newspapers, p. 137). This is my own translation, for I only have the Russian book, so the words may not be identical, however the meaning is. The point is that if we accept that we can alter the current situation, we must accept that this is due to our free choice.

 

We can also look at this from a bit different view. What is the use of all preachings of all the saints if we are not able to change our situation and thus express free choice? Sure we can do it and we can do it in the conditioned state. The other thing is the sanctioning of our choices and our consequent acts. Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God. But it does not mean that we cannot choose...

 

Please give your comments to this. Thank you!

 

Soph108

 

 

 

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Arkady

 

Thankyou for your comments. They are appreciated. All these

discussions are mental constructs and it seems to me that they are

just different ways of explaining the same thing....as usual through

contrast and comparision. There seems to be no conflict and both the

views seem to be okay.

 

As the great ones ask, " Isn't the whole question rendered

questionable when we ask ourselves, " Who is the one who exercises

free will? "

 

thanx for the discussion.

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--- Arkady Faingor <soph108 wrote:

> Hello!

>

> Thank you all very much for giving your ideas about

> this topic!

>

> There is one consideration that goes with the

> concept of free will and free choice. And that is

> the law of karma. If we accept that the law of karma

> exists (as I believe is the case with vedanta of Sri

> Ramakrishna and Vivekananda) then we cannot

> deny that everyone has a free choice to select which

> action to perform and which not. Otherwise, how

> could we be " judged " by the law of karma? If no one

> could choose whether to comit this act or the other

> then based on what people receive certain fruits of

> their actions?

>

> There is a well-known saying " you will ripe as you

> sow " , which is actually the short way to express the

> law of karma. This implies that we must be free to

> choose what we sow, otherwise everything is

> pre-determined and the law of karma becomes

> meaningless.

>

> Thus, I believe that the acceptance of the law of

> karma implies the acceptance of the presence of free

> will and free choice even in the conditioned state

> of our existence.

> Moreover, Vivekananda said that " Karma is that

> what assumes the ability and strength to alter the

> current situation " (Vivekananda in Indian

> Newspapers, p. 137). This is my own translation, for

> I only have the Russian book, so the words may not

> be identical, however the meaning is. The point is

> that if we accept that we can alter the current

> situation, we must accept that this is due to our

> free choice.

>

> We can also look at this from a bit different view.

> What is the use of all preachings of all the saints

> if we are not able to change our situation and thus

> express free choice? Sure we can do it and we can do

> it in the conditioned state. The other thing is the

> sanctioning of our choices and our consequent acts.

> Not a blade of grass moves without the will of God.

> But it does not mean that we cannot choose...

>

> Please give your comments to this. Thank you!

>

> Soph108

>

>

>

>

>

>

> SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site

> design software

 

 

Dear Devotees,

The degree of our free will & the will of God is

best explained by Thakur.Thakur says that we are

equivalent to a cow tied to a tree using a rope.

Hence we can move around the field but only upto the

length of the rope.Beyond that only Bhagavan or His

Messengers can lift us up.

Hence though our free will is limited by our past

karmic thoughts(normally a sinner is addicted to doing

sins),by the mercy of Bhagavan and Spiritual Master

one

can transcend all the effects of karma at once.Then

our life comes into the hands of Bhagavan and we will

only do what he wants us to do.This is accepted by

authorities like Adi Shankara.

Please send valuable comments on the issue.

 

Jai Shri Ramakrishna!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

 

 

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Namaste.

Regarding this topic " Free Will and Free Choice ? " much debate has

taken place on the web. There are several sources to refer to. I

give below a reference to a chapter entitled `The Paradox' in my

book `Science and Spirituality – A Vedanta Perception', published by

Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan in 2002. The paragraph headings for this

chapter are listed below:

 

Setting the locus for discussion

Law of Karma

Wherefrom come the genes of a genius?

Inherent nature seeks a congenial environment

Architects of our own fate

Enter Free Will

Role of free-will versus prArabdha karma

Role of our own prakRti

Self-effort and the goals of dharma and moksha

We keep learning

Real free will is that of the self within

Oh God, let Thy Will be mine!

The little `i' surrenders to the big `I'

Renounce the dharma of the lower self

 

An abstract of the whole chapter is as follows:

 

The paradox is that of the dilemma between the mind and hand of God,

on the one side that the devotees of the Lord seem to emphasize and

free will and self effort, on the other side, that common sense and

rational thinking always support. What is the role of the law of

karma in this?

What is dominant? Fate or Free Will? One begins by answering: the

latter. That this is an ignorant answer is what we ourselves

realize, as our ignorance gives way to a better and better

understanding of the ways of the inner self. It is the inner self

that gives the power to the central processing unit in us. Those who

are on the higher echelons of the spiritual ladder declare with

confidence: Your freedom is constrained until you have replaced your

free will by the will of God!

 

PraNAms to the Ramakrishna Order and The Master.

profvk

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