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Mesg from Dhananjay on forgiveness

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Dear Dhananjay,

 

I liked your answer. It was very thoughtful and loving. I often feel

bad for people that hurt me for that very reason. Sometimes, I feel

that I just expect more of some people, and so I have a very hard

time in that case.

 

You also said if one is good to others, then others would be good to

them, and I basically agree with that. When I find I am good to

others, and I am dumped on by someone, I begin to think that it was

something I did in a past life, that I was once like that very

person who hurt me. And I ask myself why I drew such a person into

my life, what lesson do I have to learn? Most of the time when I

have been hurt by others, it has been due to their own psychological

problems, and that is plain to me, and so I feel bad for them and

allow them to continue in my life with the grand idea that I can

help them. What an ego trip. But I am doing my best now to stop

doing so.

 

I can understand the idea of " saluting from afar " as being applied

to a dangerous person, but I noticed that Sri Ramakrishna also used

it in the case of the man who just had problems with someone, and

this person would not work them out with him.

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Dear Amba, Dhananjay and others,

Having read some of these letters from Amaba and Dhananjay, there is something

that I would like to add for the benefit of all who are reading these letters.

Lets not forget the story of the hermit snake that is also one of the parable of

Sri Ramakrishna. The story in short goes like this: A snake living under a big

Banayan tree once asked a sage how it could improve its life. The sage advised

that the snake should try not to attack others. The snake took the advice quite

seriously and would not attack or hiss at anybody. Taking this advantage, some

mischevious children would quite often beat up the snake as it did not retaliate

at all. Due to this the snake had become very weak and almost dying. Next time

when the sage came to visit the snake he was horrified at what he saw and asked

the reason for his condition. The snake replied humbly that due to the advice of

the sage, it did not retaliate when it was attacked. Hearing this the sage said

that he had asked the snake not to attack, but he had not forbidden the snake to

'hiss' when required to protect itself.

The morale of the story is that, when we encounter such people who time and time

again take advantage of us being forgiving and purposely hurt us, we should

stand up to them and stop them. If you keep forgiving them for all their wrong

actions again and again, they start assuming that it is ok to hurt you and

perceive you to be weak. So it is important that you stand up to such wrong

actions ('hiss') and make the other person realize that you are not weak and

would not forgive their wrong actions again and again. It is also important that

you should be physically, mentally and emotionally be strong and prepaired to

confront them if required. Only if you stand up so strongly, will the other

person take notice of you and stop perceiving you to be a weak. Your forgiving

nature should not at any cost be perceived by others as a weak nature. Ability

to forgive others is a gift of God and not all human beings are able to forgive

easily. But it is also important that others do not take advantage of your

forgiving nature.

 

Therefore, we don't need to attack, but there is no harm in 'hissing' if

required.

 

Thankyou,

Mandira

 

amba2200 [jessakaslade]

Monday, August 25, 2003 10:16 PM

Ramakrishna

[sri Ramakrishna] Re: Mesg from Dhananjay on forgiveness

 

 

Dear Dhananjay,

 

I liked your answer. It was very thoughtful and loving. I often feel

bad for people that hurt me for that very reason. Sometimes, I feel

that I just expect more of some people, and so I have a very hard

time in that case.

 

You also said if one is good to others, then others would be good to

them, and I basically agree with that. When I find I am good to

others, and I am dumped on by someone, I begin to think that it was

something I did in a past life, that I was once like that very

person who hurt me. And I ask myself why I drew such a person into

my life, what lesson do I have to learn? Most of the time when I

have been hurt by others, it has been due to their own psychological

problems, and that is plain to me, and so I feel bad for them and

allow them to continue in my life with the grand idea that I can

help them. What an ego trip. But I am doing my best now to stop

doing so.

 

I can understand the idea of " saluting from afar " as being applied

to a dangerous person, but I noticed that Sri Ramakrishna also used

it in the case of the man who just had problems with someone, and

this person would not work them out with him.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

Vivekananda Centre London

http://www.vivekananda.co.uk

 

 

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Hello Amba,

 

Thanks for your kind reply. The only thing for which I

am not with you is regarding, links with deeds in

previous birth. I really donot find any reason why one

should believe in the reasoning of previous birth. It

would be very kind of you if you can throw some light

on it.

 

take care,

dhananjay.

 

=====

 

______________

 

" Learning " is finding out what you already know

" Doing " is demonstrating that you know

" Teaching " is reminding others that they know just as well as you.

-Bach

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Hello Dear interested Readers,

 

It was indeed a very practical aspect that Mandira put

forth in this discussion. Its true that life is very

important, but there are certain examples in the

history that some of the very well known saints had to

give up their lives in this same way. But if you pause

for a moment, and give it a thought, you will feel

that had they resorted to " hissing " it would not have

ruined the motives in their lives. they made their

words bigger than themselves by this sacrifice. IT

INDEED WORTH IT.

 

to get to some 'SAFE' :) examples, it doesnt siut an

elephant to get after the dogs barking at it. It

hardly in good terms of a CEO to quarrel with a

worker. So, if the 'hissing' option happens to be the

first card, then there are chances that one plays it

at wrong place only to get a setback to ones long term

goals.

 

Usually the shortest, safest and suitable responce is

what one resorts to. practically it is very unlikely

that one can make the ideal choice with these

constrains. But one is more unhappy for inappopriately

using the hissing option than the happiness which one

gains from safeguarding oneself by using it.

 

Again I would like to apologize for the my limited

perspectives.

 

take care,

dhananjay.

 

=====

 

______________

 

" Learning " is finding out what you already know

" Doing " is demonstrating that you know

" Teaching " is reminding others that they know just as well as you.

-Bach

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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hi everybody,

I have been in this group for a long time but not active at any

moment. I was in search of a job. Now i got it. It's only because

of all my friends who gave their valuable support to achieve it.

 

As far the discussion regarding forgiveness i see variuos people

explaining their opinions. I would also like to join this

discussion with a few points from my side.

 

I hope forgiveness comes to picture only when you remember bad

things in your mind. Who ever hurts you it does no sense

retaliating immediately its just a respond to stimulus sort of

thing. If somebody really hurts (which i mean here are those

people to whom you have been with) i feel in a different manner.

You have to play a major role in understanding their problems what

makes them to do so. I beleive all are like me so if you register

this in your mind then there comes no thoughts about forgiving and

all. It may be like that they are pushed to such situation which

finally ends in hurting people.

 

So as such we have to find a way to eliminate the problems that

they are having, instead of thinking about whether to forgive them

or not.

 

And also i feel that nobody in this world doesnt do anything

purposely to hurt somebody. It may be a reflection from them becaz

you would have done something harm to them which you may not have

thought at all.

 

If that happens with a stranger even there you dont have to

protect urself, better try to come out of that place, this world

has got lots and lots of people spread over with interesting

characters so spend your time in reaching those people than

thinking on these petty things.

 

Becz when u react to them it is never going to stop there is that

what we want?. No not at all. We are here to like and love people

not to cultivate any sort of nonsense.

 

You think even more broader than getting into deeper.

 

 

 

 

_

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Dear Amba,

 

I fully agree with you when you talk about past lives. We often notice we take intense liking to a person who may be a total stranger. And then you may have to bear with an irritable or positively harmful relative.

 

Moreover the theory of karma suggests that the situations we find ourselves in s shaped by events in past lives. This knowledge should encourage us to always remain positive so that we do not suffer in future.

 

Once a person was served a sentence for life imprisonment though his close relatives knew he was innocent. When The Mother of Pondicherry was consulted she narrated the incident in his previous life which led to the present predicament.

 

But does this experience reduce our guilt when we commit a mistake? No. And it should not. Explain away your problems but don't do that with your mistakes. Correct them.

 

Regards

Jagannath.

 

 

 

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Dear Dhananjay,

 

I believe in past lifes and karma from past lives affecting what

happens to us in this life, but I think another Vedanta member would

be better at explaining this one.

 

In the Lord,

 

Amba

 

 

 

 

Ramakrishna , dhananjay <dhananjaytambe>

wrote:

> Hello Amba,

>

> Thanks for your kind reply. The only thing for which I

> am not with you is regarding, links with deeds in

> previous birth. I really donot find any reason why one

> should believe in the reasoning of previous birth. It

> would be very kind of you if you can throw some light

> on it.

>

> take care,

> dhananjay.

>

> =====

>

> ______________

>

> " Learning " is finding out what you already know

> " Doing " is demonstrating that you know

> " Teaching " is reminding others that they know just as well as you.

> -Bach

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Ramakrishna , " amba2200 " <jessakaslade@e...> wrote:

 

> I believe in past lifes and karma from past lives affecting what

> happens to us in this life,

>

> Ramakrishna , dhananjay <dhananjaytambe>

> wrote:

> > Hello Amba,

> >

> > Thanks for your kind reply. The only thing for which I

> > am not with you is regarding, links with deeds in

> > previous birth. I really donot find any reason why one

> > should believe in the reasoning of previous birth. It

> > would be very kind of you if you can throw some light

> > on it.

 

Namaste,

 

Perhaps this dialogue may be helpful as an answer:

 

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/The_Riddle_of_Fate_and_Free.htm

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

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Dear Dhananjay,

 

It is still a very hard question for me to answer. Why I came to

believe in reincarnation was a long process, through much reading

and understanding, and this, years before I came to Vedanta, and so

I would rather that someone who understands the teachings better

than I would answer your question.

 

While I don't believe that everything that happens to a person in

this life is a result of his past life actions, I do believe

that " You reap what you sow, " and so if you have not reaped the

results of your actions in this life, you will in the next. And yet

most karma can be erased in this life through the vision of God, and

so one can become liberated from the cycle of rebirth because of

this. But what about those who don't know God, who for whatever

reason just cannot accept Him in this life? Or who do not hold the

same beliefs as another person who feels that only those in his

religion can go to heaven? Often I hear people say, If you don't

believe in God the way I do, even if you love Him, you are going to

hell, or you are going to seize to exist after you die? But I don't

believe that God is interested in dogma, but only in our love for

Him and for others. I have also had people tell me that the belief

in reincarnation is cruel, that all you have to do is become saved.

And I, personally, don't feel that it is cruel; instead I find this

law to loving and just. Most people in any given lifetime cannot

come to an acceptance of God. What happens to them? In many

religions they are lost in some form of eternal damnation, and yet

they could very well be very good people, and even if they aren't, I

don't believe that any one person's actions in the 80 or so years

that he/she has lived on this earth, merits their being punished or

annihilated forever. And I believe that God desires all of us to be

saved, because He loves us all, and I believe that God gets what he

desires.

 

But other than this, I would suggest that you read books on

reincarnation and then come to your own conclusions, because we all

have the right to our own beliefs. I don't know what your faith is,

but I know from my own readings that even the early Christians

believed in reincarnation, and this belief is found in some parts of

the Bible. But even with that, many will read those same scriptures

in the Bible and see them differently than I, and that is okay, too.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ramakrishna , " amba2200 " <jessakaslade@e...>

wrote:

>

> Dear Dhananjay,

>

> I believe in past lifes and karma from past lives affecting what

> happens to us in this life, but I think another Vedanta member

would

> be better at explaining this one.

>

> In the Lord,

>

> Amba

>

>

>

>

> Ramakrishna , dhananjay

<dhananjaytambe>

> wrote:

> > Hello Amba,

> >

> > Thanks for your kind reply. The only thing for which I

> > am not with you is regarding, links with deeds in

> > previous birth. I really donot find any reason why one

> > should believe in the reasoning of previous birth. It

> > would be very kind of you if you can throw some light

> > on it.

> >

> > take care,

> > dhananjay.

> >

> > =====

> >

> > ______________

> >

> > " Learning " is finding out what you already know

> > " Doing " is demonstrating that you know

> > " Teaching " is reminding others that they know just as well as

you.

> > -Bach

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

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well instead of believing in the past birth karmaas , i believe that our present

birth karmaas give us the fruits in this life itself and we don't have to wait

till the next life to see the fruits. i am trying to find a justification for

the past life . i believe that we are bubbles of consciousness who come to

physical form all of a sudden one fine day and don't have much control over

it.jagdish

 

Sunder Hattangadi <sunderh wrote:--- In

Ramakrishna , " amba2200 " <jessakaslade@e...> wrote:

 

> I believe in past lifes and karma from past lives affecting what

> happens to us in this life,

>

> Ramakrishna , dhananjay <dhananjaytambe>

> wrote:

> > Hello Amba,

> >

> > Thanks for your kind reply. The only thing for which I

> > am not with you is regarding, links with deeds in

> > previous birth. I really donot find any reason why one

> > should believe in the reasoning of previous birth. It

> > would be very kind of you if you can throw some light

> > on it.

 

Namaste,

 

Perhaps this dialogue may be helpful as an answer:

 

http://www.advaita-vedanta.org/articles/The_Riddle_of_Fate_and_Free.htm

 

 

Regards,

 

Sunder

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dear Amba, Sunder and all Interested Readers,

 

It was very kind of Amba and Sunder the way they put

forth their views. I really appreciate it. The very

aspect that baffles my faith in previous birth

philosophy is pointed out in Ambas' reply.

 

I would also like to add to that point by

acknowledging some of the prevailing beliefs. If one

believes that there is some super power which controls

your actions and you are just a medium through which

all the things take place. In addition, pain and

happiness are just illusionary feelings in which

mankind is engrossed which lets the superpower carry

out its work. Also this " so called " good and bad,

according to our classification of events, leads to

continuation of life form on earth.

 

Now this philosophy is quite distinctive from free

will and fate philosophy. The believers of this view

also say that the realization of this superpower can

be had only by the blessed few.

 

There might be more such beliefs which endup at

conclusions which needs complete dedication for a long

span of time to realize it. The only point which I am

not convinced with it, as pointed out in Ambas' mail,

all the philosophies have some " faiths " which are

exclusive in nature. But certain undebatable arguments

can be applied to each of them for their validity.

 

All of these might be due the human nature to seek for

determinism in each and every aspect that he/she can

sense. (that is why quantum mechanics is maddening :))

 

I sincerely apologize for my naive thoughts.

 

take care,

dhananjay.

 

=====

 

______________

 

" Learning " is finding out what you already know

" Doing " is demonstrating that you know

" Teaching " is reminding others that they know just as well as you.

-Bach

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dear Dhananjay,

 

You said:

 

" all the philosophies have some " faiths " which are

> exclusive in nature. But certain undebatable arguments

> can be applied to each of them for their validity. "

 

What I was basically referring to was the different dogmas in

various religions, and if you take away the dogmas, you have basic

truths in all religions. It is these truths that I rely upon. One

such truth is loving God and your neighbor, which is in all

religions. Another that I discovered recently was that even Christ

taught that we are all God, and that heaven is not up there but is

inside of us. This is a basic Hindu and Buddhist belief too. So

basically what I am saying is, when we reach higher states of

consciousness and tune into God, then we all have the same beliefs,

which is, we are God and heaven is within us.

 

 

 

 

Ramakrishna , dhananjay <dhananjaytambe>

wrote:

> Dear Amba, Sunder and all Interested Readers,

>

> It was very kind of Amba and Sunder the way they put

> forth their views. I really appreciate it. The very

> aspect that baffles my faith in previous birth

> philosophy is pointed out in Ambas' reply.

>

> I would also like to add to that point by

> acknowledging some of the prevailing beliefs. If one

> believes that there is some super power which controls

> your actions and you are just a medium through which

> all the things take place. In addition, pain and

> happiness are just illusionary feelings in which

> mankind is engrossed which lets the superpower carry

> out its work. Also this " so called " good and bad,

> according to our classification of events, leads to

> continuation of life form on earth.

>

> Now this philosophy is quite distinctive from free

> will and fate philosophy. The believers of this view

> also say that the realization of this superpower can

> be had only by the blessed few.

>

> There might be more such beliefs which endup at

> conclusions which needs complete dedication for a long

> span of time to realize it. The only point which I am

> not convinced with it, as pointed out in Ambas' mail,

> > All of these might be due the human nature to seek for

> determinism in each and every aspect that he/she can

> sense. (that is why quantum mechanics is maddening :))

>

> I sincerely apologize for my naive thoughts.

>

> take care,

> dhananjay.

>

> =====

>

> ______________

>

> " Learning " is finding out what you already know

> " Doing " is demonstrating that you know

> " Teaching " is reminding others that they know just as well as you.

> -Bach

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

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Dhananjay:

 

In my understanding, all the Indian philosophies preach the same thing:

Purification of mind, thought and action to reach either a higher being or a

higher state, wherein any Dukha will not be felt. So cessation of Dukha is the

main goal of Human Life. Unless a person has faith in this, or feels a need for

this, he / she is liable to get confused over the different tenants of Indian

Philosophies. Sri Sri Sarada Devi, when reminiscing about Sri Ramakrishna, noted

that one of the main striking features of his life was the absence of Dukha.

 

The supposed presence of Free will, in my understanding, is the urge in us for

this Dukha free state. As Sri Ramana Maharishi, states, instead of worrying too

much over the cause and effect of the Free Will and the presence of Divine

Intervention or Karma (past, present and future), if we are able to reach this

Dukha free state, then all answers will be available.

 

You are very right in comparing this with frustrations of Quantum Physics... But

is we move it from Theoretical to Practical Physics, then Quantum Physics also

will start making more sense.

 

 

 

 

Pranams,

Swaminathan

 

 

 

Ramakrishna wrote:

Dear Amba, Sunder and all Interested Readers,

 

It was very kind of Amba and Sunder the way they put

forth their views. I really appreciate it. The very

aspect that baffles my faith in previous birth

philosophy is pointed out in Ambas' reply.

 

I would also like to add to that point by

acknowledging some of the prevailing beliefs. If one

believes that there is some super power which controls

your actions and you are just a medium through which

all the things take place. In addition, pain and

happiness are just illusionary feelings in which

mankind is engrossed which lets the superpower carry

out its work. Also this " so called " good and bad,

according to our classification of events, leads to

continuation of life form on earth.

 

Now this philosophy is quite distinctive from free

will and fate philosophy. The believers of this view

also say that the realization of this superpower can

be had only by the blessed few.

 

There might be more such beliefs which endup at

conclusions which needs complete dedication for a long

span of time to realize it. The only point which I am

not convinced with it, as pointed out in Ambas' mail,

all the philosophies have some " faiths " which are

exclusive in nature. But certain undebatable arguments

can be applied to each of them for their validity.

 

All of these might be due the human nature to seek for

determinism in each and every aspect that he/she can

sense. (that is why quantum mechanics is maddening :))

 

I sincerely apologize for my naive thoughts.

 

take care,

dhananjay.

 

=====

 

______________

 

" Learning " is finding out what you already know

" Doing " is demonstrating that you know

" Teaching " is reminding others that they know just as well as you.

-Bach

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Sri Ramakrishnaye Namah

Vivekananda Centre London

http://www.vivekananda.co.uk

 

 

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Dear Amba,

 

With the following quote you have hit the nail right on the head. The truth is

really so simple. Only fools (and politicians) fight in the name of religion.

Let us imagine a situation where Krishna, Jesus and Mohammed come together. What

do you expect them to do? Fight? Never! They would embrace each other with love

and merge into one entity. Sometimes I go mad thinking that why don't people

realise this simple fact? But then perhaps the Lord wants it this way and if all

people unite then maya would lose its grip on this world.

 

Regards

Jagannath.

 

amba2200 <jessakaslade wrote:

What I was basically referring to was the different dogmas in

various religions, and if you take away the dogmas, you have basic

truths in all religions. It is these truths that I rely upon. One

such truth is loving God and your neighbor, which is in all

religions. Another that I discovered recently was that even Christ

taught that we are all God, and that heaven is not up there but is

inside of us. This is a basic Hindu and Buddhist belief too. So

basically what I am saying is, when we reach higher states of

consciousness and tune into God, then we all have the same beliefs,

which is, we are God and heaven is within us.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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