SRK and other religions

[Guest guest]

SRK’s Experiences of all religions

 

 

 

In the SRK The Great Master, it is written that SRK practiced all major

religions and attained the goals of those religions and thus proved that all

religions lead to the same goal, that is God. Among the religions he practiced,

Islam is also there. He practiced it with the help of a Muslim devotee. After

some weeks or so, he saw the vision of Prophet Mohammed and saw him entering his

body (SRK’s).

 

 

 

This seems quite straight-forward, but there are problems. When I read this

several years ago, I had little idea of the Muslim religion. Now I have learnt

about major aspects of that religion and I am reading the Quran. I find that

there are no spiritual practices that Islam approves / preaches. It is mainly a

way of life with “5 pillars” like prayers 5 times a day, Zakat, Hajj, etc. There

is no concept of meditation, etc. God is not knowable and Prophet is just a

human being who received messages from the angel Gabriel represented by God

Allah. There is no question of God-realization or vision of Mohammed. So it is

really puzzling how it can be proved from SRK’s experience that Islam leads to

god realization. Islam says you cannot see or hear God and you can know Him

only after death in a place called heaven where the life is fully material with

heavenly maidens called “hourries”. As per the authentic majority religion

called (Sunni) Wahabi, one cannot become Muslim unless one

whole-heartedly accepts that Allah alone is the true God and Mohammed is His

only prophet. Without this, Muslim life doesn’t even start. Hence the experience

of SRK seeing Prophet cannot be accepted as per Islamic teaching. In that case,

how this can be accepted as a proof of that religion leading to God realization,

when that religion itself denies ‘God-realization’ as false?

 

 

 

Secondly, in Raja Yoga, (Read in Vol 1 of Complete Works of SV, page 184) SV

says that Mohammed practiced Raja Yoga incorrectly, and as a result he was a

mentally deranged man. The result was misunderstood vision and a religion which

opened to superstition and bloodshed. Now, my question is: how the above view

that SRK’s experience of Islam as a religion leading to God and this SV’s view

of Mohammed match? If we take the view expressed by SV, we can wonder if the

religion founded by a mentally deranged man can flourish and after 1350 years

command 1 billion people in 57 countries? It is officially a major religion and

is said to be “the fastest growing religion in the world”.

 

 

 

I keep this question for a open discussion. This is not aimed to insult Islam or

Hinduism, but to seek an answer to a genuine question. I am constantly studying

the works of SV and SRK literature and have found some discrepancies which needs

answers. I will write more about such problems slowly.

 

 

 

sincerely,

 

 

 

Suresh

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Suresh,

 

Once I flew out of India from New Delhi to Tehran and met some Mullahs that

explained their religion to us. One of the points they expressed was there is

one God and his name is Allah. From the Hindu view there is one God, the

creator of many souls and gods in His creation.

 

Personally my practice of Raja Yoga started in 1970 and the version of Raja

Yoga by Swami Vivekananda recommended by my Guru was Raja-Yoga copyright 1955,

by Swami Nikhilananda, Trustee of the Estate of Swami Vivekananda and was

printed in the United States of America. The revised edition that I have is

dated

1973. I do not recall the statement about Mohammed. Personally I would

recommend that anyone practising Raja Yoga be initiated by a Guru, for me it was

very important in the early years of practice.

 

Om Namah Sivaya

 

Love,

 

Kanda

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Suresh, you are right. Islam has no description

of any spiritual practices as we have in our religion.

People who practiced the " softer " Islam are Sufis who

were and are being persecuted and have to hide

themselves. The rest of Islam clearly preaches

violence. It is not difficult to understand why Islam

is so popular- its five pillars are very easy to

follow and require little or no spiritual discipline.

It preaches conversion by violence and assures heaven

where you can have 72 virgins for your eternal

pleasure.It does not talk about self or

self-realization. I am not saying that there are no

good muslims in this world. In every religion, there

are good and bad folks. We need to understand the

principles of religion in an objective way and accept

that there are various paths to God, but not all paths

are same though the goal is the same-self realization.

 

 

 

 

 

 

i

--- Suresh Shenoy <sureshrshenoy wrote:

>

> SRK’s Experiences of all religions

> we can wonder if the religion founded by a

mentally deranged man can flourish and after 1350

years command 1 billion

people in 57 countries? It is officially a major

religion and is said to

be “the fastest growing religion in the world”.

>

>

> >

>

[Guest guest]

I would like to say that insofar as orthodox Islam is concerned

there is, as you say, no method of spiritual awakening in the sense

of meditation etc, and no real concept of God realization. However,

within the Muslim Sufi tradititon such methods do exist, for

example the practice of 'Zikr', repitition of a simple prayer that

seems at least outwardly to bear some resemblance to Japa or Mantra

Yoga. Also other methods are employed such as quite complex dances

and so on.

Perhaps some other group members may have more information on this.

 

Hari Om.

 

Kalidas.

[Guest guest]

Haribol!

It was the same with Meister Eckhart. The organized

religion of Christianity rejected his mystical

experiences. Mohammed was a mystic, a true sufi. Islam

that you discuss is the orthodox view of the general

populace, not the true essence of religion which SRK

experienced and unified. Transcend the words and

propel your soul to the Source of all to unify the

essence of all religions.

-Pranams

Stephen

 

--- Suresh Shenoy <sureshrshenoy wrote:

 

> After some weeks or so, he saw the vision of Prophet

> Mohammed and saw him entering his body (SRK’s)...

> I find that there are no

> spiritual practices that Islam approves / preaches.

> It is mainly a way of life with “5 pillars” like

> prayers 5 times a day, Zakat, Hajj, etc. There is no

> concept of meditation, etc. God is not knowable and

> Prophet is just a human being who received messages

> from the angel Gabriel represented by God Allah.

 

=====

What man makes let man prescribe. What God makes let God prescribe.

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger.

http://messenger./

[Guest guest]

Haribol!

The Southern Baptists dubbed The Prophet as a " demon

possessed pedophile " . He had no control over the angel

Gabriel and required others to write down the

revelations. And cultural taboos of today frown upon

His last marriage. However, was he not then " mad after

God(Allah) " ? Those around truly god-intoxicated souls

will always declare them to be deranged. I view it as

a sad shame that we have all these major religions

which suppress the truly " god-possessed " souls. It is

the same with those today who think that the Absolute

is without form or personality. They have touched just

the surface and condemn those who know otherwise.

-Pranams

Stephen

 

--- Suresh Shenoy <sureshrshenoy wrote:

> SRK’s Experiences of all religions...

> Secondly, in Raja Yoga, (Read in Vol 1 of Complete

> Works of SV, page 184) SV says that Mohammed

> practiced Raja Yoga incorrectly, and as a result he

> was a mentally deranged man.

 

=====

What man makes let man prescribe. What God makes let God prescribe.

 

Hare Krishna Hare Krishna Krishna Krishna Hare Hare

Hare Rama Hare Rama Rama Rama Hare Hare

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger.

http://messenger./

[Guest guest]

Ramakrishna , " kalidas1957 " <cintamani@l...>

wrote:

> I would like to say that insofar as orthodox Islam is concerned

> there is, as you say, no method of spiritual awakening in the sense

> of meditation etc, and no real concept of God realization. However,

> within the Muslim Sufi tradititon such methods do exist, for

> example the practice of 'Zikr', repetition of a simple prayer that

> seems at least outwardly to bear some resemblance to Japa or Mantra

> Yoga. Also other methods are employed such as quite complex dances

> and so on.

> Perhaps some other group members may have more information on this.

>

> Hari Om.

>

> Kalidas.

 

 

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Hafizullah and I am a

shaikh ( " elder " , roughly equivalent to " swami " , I suppose) in the

Sufi Order International. This Order is a Western branch of the Sufi

lineage known as the Chishtiyya, which distinguished itself from the

source lineage in what is now Afghanistan over a thousand years ago,

was brought to India in the late 1100s CE, and to the West in 1910 by

Hazrat Inayat Khan. A regular member of your list forwarded the

above to me and suggested that I might be interested in posting a

reply.

 

First, it is necessary to understand that the Islam of the mosque and

the Islam of the Sufi orders are very different things. (There are

also Sufis who are not Muslims, just as there are yogis who are not

formal Hindus.) Islam, like most religions, certainly has that facet

which is basically about social structure and control. But that's

not all that's going on there. The Qur'an is a revealed scripture

and can be understood on 7 esoteric levels, just as can the stories

in the Ramayana. The esoteric understanding of the Qur'an was there

from the very beginning and was taught by the Prophet Mohammed to his

inner circle, which was then transmitted to the Sufis. However, as

is true in most religions, there is room in Islam for both esoteric

and exoteric interpretations but only the esotericists know it.

Within a generation of Mohammed's passing, the schism had formed

between the literalists and those on the path of God-realization,

with the former often persecuting the latter.

 

The transformational methodologies of the Sufis have been under

continuous development ever since then, building upon foundations

established as far back as the Egyptian Mysteries and including

initiatic streams from Judaism, Christianity, the Zoroastrian Magi,

and Central Asian shamanism. The Sufis have a very deep and highly-

developed technical toolbox supported by a subtle, complex and

detailed cosmology. There are practices of repetition of sacred

words and phrases (essentially a mantra yoga) breath practices

similar to pranayama (but with significant differences: no chin-

lock, for example), and a system of subtle centers called Latâ'if

that are subtler than the chakras and some of which occur in

different places than the traditional locations for the chakras.

There are group practices similar to kirtan but also different in

significant ways, depending upon the particular Order and who is

conducting the circle. The circles of zikr are very disciplined

compared to the usual kirtan; it's often conducted standing, in a

circle or in parallel lines, everyone moving in unison. The body

movements are sometimes very wide, and there is often a deep rasping

breath in the chant that is very powerful in cutting through psycho-

emotional and subtle-energy blocks. The amount of energy moving in

these events is truly astounding, and one must be very grounded.

 

Sufi cosmology is built around the unity of God and manifestation,

with am emphasis on God's Immanence rather than God's Transcendence.

There is a whole framework of " planes " of existence, from the densest

to the subtlest out to the Absolute. What has been called the Arc of

Ascent is not dissimilar to yoga, but there is also the Arc of

Descent --- how the Divine Being exists and lives through, in, and AS

manifestation and multiplicity. The Sufis see one's whole life as

the dynamic unfolding of the soul --- including the ego and the

personality, and not something that happened once but is continually

renewed from the Source in every instant. In Sufism, the ego is not

the enemy, and we're not trying to suppress or kill it. The ego is a

point-of-view; you can't kill a point-of-view, but its character and

limitations can be seen for what they are. The ego is perceived and

treated, rather, as God's experience of multiplicity; the fundamental

identity looking out from behind your eyes is the selfsame one

looking out from behind mine, but " impressed " by the density of the

earth plane, physicality and emotions, and thus focused outwardly

rather than apprehending its own essence from the inside.

 

Put another way: If I'm interested in an apple at the top of the

apple tree, I can climb the tree for it, or I can get a hook and pull

the apple to me where I stand on the ground. Sufis meditate " up " but

also meditate " down. " Divine Essence is experienced bodily as well

as abstractly. One experiences God in manifestation by a shift of

the focus of consciousness *and of identity*, something like shifting

the depth-of-field in an optical instrument, instead of

leaving " here " (the earth plane) to ascend to a hypothetical " there "

(samadhi). There is nowhere to " go " because there is nowhere and

nothing in which God is not present.

 

There is no doctrine of karma, as such; the impressions of past lives

are acknowledged but also embraced as a unique (and even valuable)

participation in God's unfolding Itself, *in us AS us*. In keeping

with the emphasis of God in Immanence, Sufism is interested in the

purpose of manifestation and uncovering the purpose of one's life,

which was set into the " substance " of the soul at its creation. God

can only be known in fullness if manifestation is embraced as God

embraces it, because God created this whole show in order to know

Itself in actuality as well as in unmanifest potential.

 

Purification, as in yoga, is the release of that which does not

properly belong to us. Purification is also the cultivation of the

Divine Qualities in one's being in a process of interior

harmonization; sometimes things that seem to be a wound or a karmic

burden can be resolved by the cultivation/manifestation of

appropriate qualities of Divine Essence. There are precise

techniques for this. Sufis are not, by and large, vegetarian or

celibate, except during periods of retreat. The life of the

householder (relationships, kids, sexuality, vocation, profession) IS

the path and the context for the alchemical crucible, and there are

just some things that don't get " cooked " properly if one does not

live a full, human life. There is continual work on plugging energy

leaks, but since the emphasis is on embodiment instead of

ascent/transcendence, there isn't the same emphasis as in yoga of

accumulating and sublimating the life force for opening and climbing

the chakras. In fact, some people need to eat flesh food for the

power it gives to the fulfillment of their life's purpose, and

experience regular sexual union in order to optimally balance their

energies and embody Divine Unity in the context of relationship.

 

Sorry for the long post; I hope some of it makes sense.

 

 

 

In service,

 

Hafizullah

[Guest guest]

>,

> Dear Hafizulla,

 

Thank you for what is an extremely interesting post. I am

particularly interested in what you say about the Sufi attitude

towards the ego, and in what you say about Divine descent. I wonder

if you could possibly reccomend any books or links to websites where

I might find out more about your branch of Sufism?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Kalidas.

>

>

>>

>

[Guest guest]

>

>I would like to say that insofar as orthodox Islam is concerned

>there is, as you say, no method of spiritual awakening in the sense

>of meditation etc, and no real concept of God realization. However,

>within the Muslim Sufi tradititon  such methods do exist, for

>example the practice of 'Zikr', repitition of a simple prayer that

>seems at least outwardly to bear some resemblance to Japa or Mantra

>Yoga. Also other methods are employed such as quite complex dances

>and so on.

>Perhaps some other group members may have more information on this.

>

>Hari Om.

>

>Kalidas.

>

 

 

Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Hafizullah and I am a shaikh

( " elder " , roughly equivalent to " swami, " perhaps) in the Sufi Order

International. This Order is a Western branch of the Sufi lineage known as

the Chishtiyya. The " Chishti Order " of Sufis distinguished itself from the

source lineage in what is now Afghanistan over a thousand years ago, was

brought to India in the late 1100s CE, and to the West in 1910 by Hazrat

Inayat Khan. A member of your list forwarded the above post to me and

suggested that I might be interested in posting a reply.

 

First, as it has been noted in this thread, the Islam of the mosque and the

Islam of the Sufi orders are very different things. Islam, like most

religions, certainly has that facet which is basically about social

structure and control. But that's not all that's going on there. The

Qur'an is a revealed scripture and can be understood on 7 esoteric levels,

just as can the stories in the Ramayana. The esoteric understanding of the

Qur'an was there from the very beginning and was taught by the Prophet

Mohammed to his inner circle. However, as is true in most religions, there

is room for both esoteric and exoteric interpretations but only the

esotericists know it. Within a generation of Mohammed's passing, the schism

had formed between the literalists and those on the path of God-realization,

with the former often persecuting the latter.

 

The transformational methodologies of the Sufis have been under continuous

development ever since then, building upon foundations established as far

back as the Egyptian Mysteries and including initiatic streams from Judaism,

Christianity, the Zoroastrian Magi, and Central Asian shamanism. The Sufis

have a very deep and highly-developed technical toolbox supported by a

subtle, complex and detailed cosmology. There are practices of repetition

of sacred words and phrases (essentially a mantra yoga), breath practices

similar to pranayama (but with significant differences: no chin-lock, for

example), and a system of subtle centers called Latâ'if that are subtler

than the chakras and some of which occur in different places than the

traditional locations for the chakras. There are group practices similar to

kirtan but also different in significant ways, depending upon the particular

Order and who is conducting the circle. These circles of zikr are very

disciplined compared to the usual kirtan; it's often conducted standing, in

a circle or in parallel lines, everyone moving in unison. The body

movements are sometimes very energetic, and there at times a deep rasping

breath in the chant that is very powerful in cutting through

psycho-emotional and subtle-energy blocks.

 

Sufi cosmology is built around the unity of God and manifestation, as is

Vedanta, with am emphasis on God's Immanence rather than God's

Transcendence. There is a whole framework of " planes " of existence, from

the densest to the subtlest out to the Absolute. What has been called the

Arc of Ascent is not dissimilar to yoga, but there is also the Arc of

Descent --- how the Divine Being exists and lives through, in, and AS

manifestation and multiplicity. The Sufis see one's whole life as the

dynamic unfolding of the soul --- including the ego and the personality, and

not something that happened once but is continually renewed from the Source

in every instant. This " out-breath of the Divine " is engaged by Sufi

Sadhana as one of the transformative agents. In Sufism, the ego is not the

enemy, and we're not trying to suppress or kill it but to train and master

it. The ego is perceived and treated as God's experience of multiplicity;

the fundamental identity looking out from behind your eyes is the selfsame

one looking out from behind mine, but each vehicle is " impressed " in its

unique way by the density of the earth plane and life of physicality and

emotions, and thus focused outwardly rather than apprehending its own

essence from the inside.

 

Put another way: If I'm interested in an apple at the top of the apple

tree, I can climb the tree for it, or I can get a hook and pull the apple to

me where I stand on the ground. Sufis meditate " up " but also meditate

" down. " Divine Essence is experienced bodily as well as abstractly. One

experiences God in manifestation by a shift of the focus of consciousness

*and of identity*, rather like shifting the depth-of-field in an optical

instrument, instead of leaving " here " to ascend to a hypothetical " there "

(samadhi). There is nowhere to " go " because there is nowhere God is not

present.

 

There is no doctrine of karma, as such; the impressions of past lives are

embraced as a unique (and even valuable) participation in God's unfolding

Itself, in us AS us. In keeping with the emphasis of God in Immanence,

Sufism is interested in the purpose of manifestation and uncovering the

purpose of one's life, which was set into the " substance " of the soul at its

creation. God can only be known in fullness if manifestation is embraced as

God embraces it, because God created this whole show in order to know Itself

in actuality as well as in unmanifest potential.

 

Purification, as in yoga, is the release of that which does not properly

belong to us. Purification is also the cultivation of the Divine Qualities

in one's being in a process of interior harmonization; sometimes things that

seem to be a wound or a karmic burden can be resolved by the

cultivation/manifestation of appropriate qualities of Divine Essence. There

are precise techniques for this. Sufis are not, by and large, vegetarian or

celibate, except during periods of retreat. The life of the householder

(relationships, kids, sexuality, vocation, profession) IS the path and the

context for the alchemical crucible, and there are just some things that

don't get " cooked " properly if one does not live a full, human life. There

is continual work on plugging energy leaks, but since the emphasis is on

embodiment instead of ascent/transcendence, there isn't the same emphasis as

in yoga of accumulating and sublimating the life force for opening and

ascending the chakras. In fact, some people need to eat flesh food for the

power it gives towards the fulfillment of their life's purpose, and to

experience regular sexual union in order to optimally balance their energies

and embody Divine Unity in the context of relationship.

 

Sorry for the long post; I hope some of it makes sense.

 

In Service,

 

Hafizullah Chishti

[Guest guest]

Namaskaras, Kalidas.

 

The Order's website is at http://www.sufiorder.org

 

The best book I can think of at the moment is called " The Soul's Journey. "

http://www.omegapub.com/store/merchant.mv?Screen=PROD & Store_Code=WisdomsChil

d & Product_Code=Book_SOUJOU

It's ISBN 0-930872-53-3, recently republished with new material from the

archives of Hazrat Inayat Khan's discourses. Amazon shows only the older

edition at the moment.

 

I hope you find it useful.

 

Hafizullah

 

 

 

 

kalidas1957 [cintamani]

Thursday, June 10, 2004 7:47 am

Ramakrishna

[sri Ramakrishna] Re:SRK and other religions

 

 

>,

> Dear Hafizulla,

 

Thank you for what is an extremely interesting post. I am

particularly interested in what you say about the Sufi attitude

towards the ego, and in what you say about Divine descent. I wonder

if you could possibly reccomend any books or links to websites where

I might find out more about your branch of Sufism?

 

Kind Regards,

 

Kalidas.

>

>

>>

>

[Guest guest]

<<

I am particularly interested in what you say about the Sufi attitude

towards the ego

>>

 

For example: When there is Praise of God, there is no room for ego. The ego

is not subdued, destroyed, or even effaced, but is transmuted by joining in

the praise.

 

Hafizullah