Spiritual experiences -Questions from Suresh

[Guest guest]

Dear List.

Suresh has sent us a list of interesting question for the list to think

about.

As the list of questions is big we have taken the liberty of sending

out one question at a time

 

" Suresh Shenoy " <sureshrshenoy

" Ramakrishna Group " <Ramakrishna >

Monday, June 14, 2004 04:40

Some dilemmas of Hinduism

 

Some dilemmas of Hinduism

 

Hinduism is surely one of the greatest religions. It has great depth and

breadth. Perhaps that itself is its strength and alas, weakness, too! A

religion which accepts anything and everything loses the grit. A religion

has to have certain accepted common dogmas and beliefs. I have been

studying Islam and Christianity and from my (incomplete) study, I have

certain views which I now share here with you.

 

Spiritual experience: How far it is true?

Hinduism accepts spiritual experiences and holds them to be the source of

all Godly knowledge. So it is possible to not only know God, but also to

see Him and talk to Him also.

 

The tragedy is that often such claims of communication with God are just

outright fraud, fabricated stories or hallucinations. If we enquire, there

are very few people who had real spiritual experience. Even in this, there

are often many contradictory visions, etc. and the people who experience it

are not convinced themselves. So how others will get convinced?

 

Considering all this, the percentage of people who had real spiritual

experience is very low and it has to be accepted as a minority phenomenon.

May be one in 1000 has got it; even this seems unlikely. May be one in

100,000, perhaps. Now, the question is, can we depend on the experience of

a miniscule of the population as Final Truth? Is it a wise course?

 

Compare this with the Islamic doctrine: They hold that God being Infinite,

is unknowable to human mind and no spiritual practices to the aim are

acceptable. God Allah has promised that he will take care of such

supernatural matters and men need not worry themselves into such topics.

Such an attempt is futile and despicable. God has given guidelines how to

lead a 'halaal' way of life and if one follows that, it is enough.

Enjoyments in this framework are not barred.

[Guest guest]

Hello Sir,

Though I am only a student, I believe that instead of

thinking of the way Hinduism is to be changed in order

to make it more " gritful " , why not change the way we

live. If only a few of the people live like this it

will be sufficient. Sw. Vivekananda is a living

example of a person who lived and has recorded his

experiences of communion with GOD. We can also see

this in the life of Sri Ramakrishna. Why not believe

that these people were genuine and follow the path

they set for us instead of just trying to improve

hinduism. I believe that Hinduism has never been needy

of people to popularise it or to strengthen it.

It is quite stroong to defend itself. well this is

what i believe and others are welcome to to

their own views.

Thanking you for giving me a platform to air my

thoughts

 

 

 

 

--- Vivekananda Centre <vivekananda

wrote: > Dear List.

> Suresh has sent us a list of interesting question

> for the list to think

> about.

> As the list of questions is big we have taken the

> liberty of sending

> out one question at a time

>

> " Suresh Shenoy " <sureshrshenoy

> " Ramakrishna Group "

> <Ramakrishna >

> Monday, June 14, 2004 04:40

> Some dilemmas of Hinduism

>

> Some dilemmas of Hinduism

>

> Hinduism is surely one of the greatest religions. It

> has great depth and

> breadth. Perhaps that itself is its strength and

> alas, weakness, too! A

> religion which accepts anything and everything loses

> the grit. A religion

> has to have certain accepted common dogmas and

> beliefs. I have been

> studying Islam and Christianity and from my

> (incomplete) study, I have

> certain views which I now share here with you.

>

> Spiritual experience: How far it is true?

> Hinduism accepts spiritual experiences and holds

> them to be the source of

> all Godly knowledge. So it is possible to not only

> know God, but also to

> see Him and talk to Him also.

>

> The tragedy is that often such claims of

> communication with God are just

> outright fraud, fabricated stories or

> hallucinations. If we enquire, there

> are very few people who had real spiritual

> experience. Even in this, there

> are often many contradictory visions, etc. and the

> people who experience it

> are not convinced themselves. So how others will

> get convinced?

>

> Considering all this, the percentage of people who

> had real spiritual

> experience is very low and it has to be accepted as

> a minority phenomenon.

> May be one in 1000 has got it; even this seems

> unlikely. May be one in

> 100,000, perhaps. Now, the question is, can we

> depend on the experience of

> a miniscule of the population as Final Truth? Is

> it a wise course?

>

> Compare this with the Islamic doctrine: They hold

> that God being Infinite,

> is unknowable to human mind and no spiritual

> practices to the aim are

> acceptable. God Allah has promised that he will

> take care of such

> supernatural matters and men need not worry

> themselves into such topics.

> Such an attempt is futile and despicable. God has

> given guidelines how to

> lead a 'halaal' way of life and if one follows that,

> it is enough.

> Enjoyments in this framework are not barred.

>

 

[Guest guest]

In response to Sudesh's questions:

 

Hinduism has a lot of spiritual principles. Ritualism

and form worship are menat for those who are in the

elementary stages of spiritual practice. Hinduism has

grown over a period of five to eight thousand years

and that is the reason for a variery of sects,

principles, missions, etc. in HInduism whereas other

religions are just babies compared to Hinduism. If you

study Hindu scriptures, they don't say that you can

see God and talk to Him(HER). Upanishads say that we

should go within, contemplate, enquire and realize our

true selves and further,our upanishads state that

Bramha( God) is Satyam Jnanam and Anantham, that is,

the Absolute Truth, Knowledge and infinite. So

spiritual philosophy,unlike religion, does not speak

of God in any physical form. The beauty of Hinduism

is,it offers several paths so that everyone desirous

of pursuing sprituality has a chance, and people can

meditate on God with or without form. Flexibility and

absence of

dogmatic approach are some of the best things Hinduism

can offer. HInduism motivates seekers of God by

calling propel children of immortality instead of

calling everyone a sinner. It does not say that you

will go to hell if you dont worship Allah or Jesus nor

does it ask you to convert people to Hinduism. Once

you talk about conversions, you are demeaning other

religions and extolling only your religion. Hinduism

is one religion which encourages tolerance of other

religions by recognizing that there are several aths

to reach God. So compared to the strong points, the

weak points in our religion are minor.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--- Vivekananda Centre <vivekananda

wrote:

> Dear List.

> Suresh has sent us a list of interesting question

> for the list to think

> about.

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger.

http://messenger./

[Guest guest]

OM.

 

 

 

Dear Suresh,

 

 

 

You question about the truth is much appreciated. I would like to clarify your

doubts on the basis of my practices

 

 

 

1. Hinduism is not based on any spiritual experiences. It is based on the Wisdom

derived from the spiritual practice. Hinduism is about “i” to “I”. If we can

find somebody hallow and shallow, even though he proclaims to be " Spiritual

Master " , how it will benefit him, except Monetarily?

 

 

 

2. The Hindu belief is as per the modern Psychology, it believes that every body

has got his own Vision and perception. Nothing is right and nothing is wrong.

Yes. This theory can lead to confusion, that's why Hinduism emphasised on the

Right Guru and Right Pupil principle.

 

 

 

3. We get these confusions, because we think we can learn spirituality in the

books and at our leisure time. It is just like any other studies. You have to

dedicate and practice. You can't learn through the Books or through Internet.

 

 

 

4. All the spiritual experiences listed in the scriptures are guidelines to the

starter and accepted by various spiritual masters. (I am talking about

" Pathangali Yoga Sutra " )

 

 

 

5.All religions talk the same truth. But for different people, at different

demographic and culture. So the ways and means are different.

 

 

 

6. Islamic teachings are for the nomad's at that time. They require way of life

and not more than that.

 

 

 

7. Think yourself, if just eating (Halal), drinking and enjoying make the life,

then what difference it will make from the other animals. Even to live in this

world you have to study for more that 15 years, just imagine for higher life how

much practice you need. Everybody who comes out of the college, say Computer

engineering, will have different knowledge and experiences. It is same with

Spiritual also. Each soul experience is unique and nothing is wrong.

 

 

 

Don't get confused with the too many books. First Practice what you believe and

it will take you from there. Our problems are to compare our religion with

other and think we are superior. Also if others ask questions about our

religion, we need answers. Don't worry about getting answers for others,

practice, practice, practice. Think that you are a Scientist and immersed in to

the research. Hopefully the above would have answered some of your questions.

 

 

 

Jai Sri Ramakrishna

 

 

 

Shankar

 

 

 

 

 

 

Friends. Fun. Try the all-new Messenger

 

 

[Guest guest]

Suresh gives the impression that he understands all about Hinduism, but I

believe he needs to know much more before he gives the verdict: a religion

[Hinduism] that accepts anything and everything loses grit.Yes, it loses grit in

the

sense that it doesn't scare people into believing that unless you follow

their path (of Islam or Christianity) you will go to hell. The Hindu religion is

democratic and says that whatever path you choose, practice it sincerely, with

great devotion, and regularity. It further says love everyone and cause no

injury, either in thought, word or deed. It says practice self control, be

truthful in thought, word, and deed. Jesus said: Blessed are the pure in heart,

for

they will see God. The Hindus accept it. When you have purified your heart of

hatred, anger, greed, lust, attachment, and pride, you will certainly see God

and speak to him, but not with the same eyes or tongue by which we see or

speak to each other. In fact you will be seeing God in everything and in every

action of yours. If someone insults you and you bless him or calmly walk away

from the place, you know that in your forgiveness and kindness God is

manifesting.

There are many great things about Islam and Christianity, but if you read

history of the last one thousand years, there is no other religion than these

two

that have caused so much pain and suffering on humanity. But as I said, there

are great things about both of these religions, including the grit.

Umesh

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

The point you raise is interesting, but sadly, I worry that such

views are the root cause of fundamentalism in all religions.

If we reject the living inner experience of the divine because only

a few are open to such, where does that leave the experience of

religous founders, such as Jesus, Mohammed and indeed Sri

Ramakrishna on which texts such as the Qu'ran etc, are based?

 

Implicit in such a position also is the notion that God spoke to

the 'prophet's of old' but no longer speaks, except perhaps to a

few. But they can't be trusted!

So - by this reasoning if God wanted to proclaim a new message, it

would have to be rejected, since the messenger might be

hallucinating, mentally un-stable, fulfilling the un-consciouss wish

projection of others etc.

 

This is a view that no doubt suits the powers that be. The idea of

an inner liberation, of actual spiritual experience is a threat to

the established world order. The outer authority of Popes, Mullahs

etc, is dependent upon the belief in their systems that is present

in the general populous. If people truly believed in an inner yoga,

in spiritual freedom, and the attainment of Divine bliss

independently of such authorities, their power would be greatly

diminished.

In other words, the notion that we can't know God ourselves but only

via the mediation of a given creed, be it Christian, Muslim or

indeed Hindu is a major tool in the hands of those who seek, for all

the wrong reasons, to monopolize 'spirituality'.

Unless mankind can find the true harmony of religions spoken of by

Sri Ramakrishna & Swamiji, there will never be peace in the world. I

don't see how this can come other than by indivaduals awakening to

the Truth. If there are only a limited number of such, then we will

just have to pray that it is enough to prevent complete disaster

which threatens the human race in this new century.

 

Love,

 

Kalidas.

[Guest guest]

Dear Umesh Bhai,

 

 

No one understands Hinduism fully and no one ever will. It is " Ananta " , " Apara "

and it is evolving pari passu with the environment. Ther is the " ever changing "

side and the " never changing " side in Hinduism. It is the disciplined way of

looking at Spirituality. All confusions will vanish as soon as you learn to

control your mind. Be inward looking, feel God's presence everywhere, act your

part in worshipping GOD, with your senses/sense organs - define your activities

with the divine grace - follow Him everywhere around you. You can see Him only

with His light. Kindle the spark and win Him now. Say, Sarvesam Swastir Bhavatu,

Sarvesam Shantir Bhavatu,Sarvesam poornam Bhavatu, Sarvesam Mangalam Bhavatu, Om

peace peace peace. If the whole world become " Niramaya " you will stay happy. Let

Him decide what is good for you. Parampita will take care of you. May God bless

you Umesh Bhai. Take care.

 

Asis Bagchi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

This message came from Debajit..... We had to edit out the tail portion of

earlier messages. May we remind members to remove all previous

messages? jay

 

 

-

" Debajit Das " <debajit>

<Ramakrishna >

Tuesday, June 29, 2004 07:42

Re: [sri Ramakrishna] Spiritual experiences -Questions from Suresh

 

 

> I am sure Hinduism never insists on mere faith in the possibillity of

God-experience. It advocates intellectual faith. It talks about landmarks on

the way to this experience, against which we can tally our experiences and

have a sense of progress. For example, it asks of a seeker : are the

quantity and quality of your desires undergoing changes? Are you able to

move from loneliness to aloneness?Is aloneness leading to release from

unrealistic attachments? Are you now moving from reaction to response with

regard to external stimuli? Are you experiencing a gradual feeling of

release?

>

> When we come to the issue of majority experience vs. minority experience,

personality-based faith systems like Islam and Christianity has a still

limited canvas. The members of such systems have to depend on the experience

of only one person. They have to rest satisfied with the understanding of

that person alone, whose authority looms large over the sacred texts. It is

still minoritistic. With such global development of the human intellect,

faith becomes a very difficult proposition. Most people want to find out for

themselves, just as you want to find out for yourself. Otherwise, you would

have been perfectly at peace after reading a few books on Hinduism. But, you

want to KNOW more. And so do most people. No one likes to be cheated. With

so much fraudulent cases around, as you yourself mention, is it really

possible to remain convinced with the tutoring of a spiritual text? Will the

fast pace of change outside, allow one to be centred in faith in the words

of a person, who

> no longer exists.

>

> So, it seems a more practical proposition when Hinduism says that

God-experience is rare and remote, but the experience of the journey is not

remote, since there are clear landmarks.

>

> On a parting note, it requires a God-experiencer to relate to the

experience of another God-experiencer. The life of Shri Ramakrishna contains

the case of Mr. Haladhari who often thought that Sri Ramakrishna was a

fraud. Some people still do. And very frankly, most admirers and devotees

also undergo this indecision about him. Though they may not articulate their

doubts. Therefore, faith is not as handy as it appears. Experience is the

best teacher, as Hinduism so often puts it.

>

> Kind regards,

> Debajit

>

>