Sankhya and Vedanta

[Guest guest]

Dear All,

 

I have very little exposure to both of these philosophies. I have

found

out certain points which I would like to mention for the attention of

the learned members of the group. Please do try to throw some light on

these issues.

 

In samkhya it is asserted that both prakriti and purusha is eternally

co-existent. It is said in that the prakriti is for the enjoyment of

the

soul and after it satiates all kinds of worldly desire and if it turns

its attention to purusha it will attain liberation. A point to note

here is that liberation in samkhya philosophy is the detachment of the

soul from the nature to become free and it does not annihilate nature

and it does co-exist and there will be many other souls who are

evolving

and enjoying in the nature. It also maintains that there are many

purushas which shows it is purely dualistic in approach.

 

In the Vedanta philosophy however the nirvana is defined as the

experience of the perfect non dual state. Where there is nothing but

pure consciousness. In very strict logic they assert that even it

cannot be called non dual because if you say non dual it is assumed

that

you remember the duality experienced. It is also told that the

manifested universe is apparent reality only.

 

The Maya is called anadi in the Vedanta and anadi means it is

beginning

less. Why it is called beginning less? If Vedanta maintains this view

that the Maya is anadi then does it not becomes as good as samkhya

system? In my interaction somebody he told me that it is defined as

anadi but it is not defined as ananta and he opined that it is

annihilated.

 

Another peculiarity here in Vedanta is as in case of sankhya the

phenomenal world and innumerable jiva, ishwara and jagat does co

exist.

It may not be perceived by the sage who has attained the non dual

state

and who is in samadhi. But there are millions of jives who do exist

with

the all powerful ishwara. Here also shall we have to take that the

siddha will transcend the space, time and causation phenomenon and

gets

freedom and gets established in the non dual aspect of the Brahman? If

we use the word transcend it is presupposed that the phenomenal world

does co exist.

 

How to reconcile these issues. But one thing is sure Sri

Shankaracharya,

Sri Ramakrishna always said that highest state is the nirguna Brahman

who is pure satchidaanada. Swami Vivekananda also use to say that you

can see either matter or spirit both you cannot see at a time.

Ofcourse

we can say that the Brahman is the substratum and the efficient and

the

material cause of the manifested universe. But the question is the

phenomenal world with its myriad name and form exist eternally? If yes

why it cannot be called dualistic in approach?

 

Pls do comment on these issues.

 

JAI JAI RAGHUVEER SAMARTHA

 

Yours in the lord,

 

Br. Vinayaka.

[Guest guest]

Namaskar.

 

I am just a novice at this and will try to answer just a part of your list of queries.

 

Maya is not an entity- it is just a delusion. In fact it is a perception of something which is not (yA mA sa mAyA). So it has to be without a beginning. I will borrow Swami Chinmayananda's lines: If ignorance, or delusion as in this case, has a beginning, it would mean that there was knowledge before that. Since knowledge can never lead to ignorance, ignorance is called anAdi. A corollary would be that jnAna is ananta - since it can never end and lead to ignorance.

 

Vasanth.

On 2/13/06, Vinayaka <vinayaka_ns wrote:

Dear All,I have very little exposure to both of these philosophies. I have foundout certain points which I would like to mention for the attention of

the learned members of the group. Please do try to throw some light on

 

 

--

" Our English schools are flourishing wonderfully; we find it difficult to provide instruction to all. The effect of this education on Hindus is prodigious. No Hindu who has received an English education ever remains sincerely attached to his religion. It is my firm belief that if our plans of education are followed up, there will not be a single idolater among the respected classes 30 years hence. And this will be effected without our efforts to proselytize; I heartily rejoice in the prospect "

Lord Macaulay in a letter to his father dated Oct. 12th, 1836

[Guest guest]

Namaste,

 

Confusion ends when knowledge dawns. If you want it you will get it, if you

want something else you will get that.

 

All my love, Bob Rose

 

 

 

 

Dear All,

[Guest guest]

Dear Vinayaka,

 

In Volume 2 of the Complete Works of Swami Vivekananda there is a

section called " Practical Vedanta and other lectures " . The last few

lectures of this section deal with the type of questions raised by

you. You may find them useful. They are available at

 

www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info

 

Thanks,

 

Partha

 

Ramakrishna , " Vinayaka " <vinayaka_ns

wrote:

>

>

> Dear All,

>

> I have very little exposure to both of these philosophies. ...

 

> Br. Vinayaka.

>

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar

 

I have a question. You say that ignorance is without beginning. I read

somewhere that anything that has no beginning has no ending, and

anything that is created (i.e., has a beginning) will be destroyed

(has an end). How then is ignorance dispelled if it has no ending? Or

is it that since it is only a perception and not counted as an entity,

the above logic does not apply?

 

Sailesh

[Guest guest]

Namaste, I somehow feel a relation between both Ignorance and Knowledge. Can we perceive Knowledge if there is no ignorance? Once we attain knowledge about subject, we donot stop there. We delve into the matter in a continous pursuit of knowledge. We do this because we know that we donot have complete knowledge of that subject matter. That is, ignorance persists. So can we conclude that ignorance and knowledge are inseparable and explain the existence of ignorance and knowledge by Duality theory. I have some more question in this regard. If I consider that ignorance is perishable then is that stage known as Purnabramhan gyan? Is Purnabramha Gyan a sign of self-complacency or a really somebody can achieve that stage? Can any ordinary man achieve that? How? How does somebody feel in that stage? What are the characteristics of such a person? Does he/ she never make a mistake? Are they flawless? If so how can a flawless being survive in a imperfect world like ours? Please show me some light on this matter. Thanks and regards Monalisa

[Guest guest]

Dear Sailesh,

 

Namaste. With reference to your question - if

ignorance is without beginning how can it end, as that

which has no beginning has no end. An excellent

question for us to contemplate.

 

Vivekachudamani provides beautiful answers and

explanation to this question. Moreover, Swami

Vivekananda's lectures on Real and Apparent Man & Maya

and Illusion in the second volume of Complete Works is

a very good source to seek answers.

 

The following passages are taken from Vivekachudamani.

 

Verse-192: The disciple questioned: Whether it is by

mistake or for some other reason that the supreme self

has become a living being, the identification is

beginningless, and there can be no end to what has no

beginning.

 

Verse-193: So the state of a living being is going to

be a continual samsara, and there can be no liberation

for it. Can you explain this to me?

 

Verse-194: The teacher replied: You have asked the

right question, wise one, so now listen. The mistaken

imagination of illusion is not a reality.

 

Verse-195: Outside of illusion no attachment can come

about for what is by nature unattached, actionless and

formless, as in the case of blueness and space (the

sky).

 

Verse-196: Existence as a living being, due to the

mistaken intellect identifying itself with its own

light, the inner joy of understanding, beyond

qualities and beyond activity does not really exist,

so when the illusion ceases, it does too, having no

real existence of its own.

 

Verse-197: So long as the illusion exists, it too has

existence, created by the confusion of

misunderstanding, in the same way that a rope seems to

be a snake so long as the illusion persists. When the

illusion comes to an end, so does the snake.

 

Verses-198 & 199: Ignorance and its effects are seen as

beginningless until with the arising of insight,

ignorance and its effects are destroyed along with its

root, even if beginningless, like dreams on awaking

from sleep. Even if beginningless this world of

appearances is not eternal - like something originally

non-existent.

 

Verse-200 & 201: Even if beginningless, something

originally non-existent is seen to come to an end. In

the same way the living organism which is thought to

belong to oneself through its identification with the

intellect, does not really exist. On the other hand,

the true self is quite distinct from it, and the

identification of oneself with the intellect is due to

misunderstanding.

 

Verse-202: The cessation of that wrong identification

is achieved by right understanding, and by no other

means. Right understanding is held by scripture to be

the recognition of the oneness of God and oneself.

 

Verse-203: This recognition is achieved by right

discrimination between what is truly oneself and what

is not, so one must develop this discrimination

between the conventional self and one's true self.

 

 

Regards,

Uday.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste, The comparision drawn in your mail between ignorance and knowledge is commendable. I would like to put the answers from my point of view and I humbly confess that I am also striving to search the truth and certainly do not consider myself as an eligible person to write on this topic, yet, because the great ways shown by the departed Mahan Atmas or Great Souls are really scattered everywhere and easy to know at the same time 'Hardest' to realize, so I am borrowing some ideas of theirs to write here. 1) If I consider that ignorance is perishable then is that stage known as Purnabramhan gyan? We can certainly say that as the words of Sri Ramakrishna go, where we realize that everything else is temporary and only God is eternal is the stage of absolute freedom. Thus, the knowledge that ignorance is perishable comes from the destruction of

Maya or Illusion existing in our minds and hence brings us to the world of truth and light. So, you can say that this is the stage of Purnabramhan gyan. Sanskrit verse referring to this idea: Asato Ma Sadgamaya, Tamso Ma Jyotirgamaya, Mrityorma Amritam gamaya. Here at this blissful state, Asat, Tamas and Mrityu do not exist meaning the knowledge which knows ignorance is perishable and gets destryoed by time. 2) Is Purnabramha Gyan a sign of self-complacency or a really somebody can achieve that stage? As we read various scriptures and go through the lives of the prophets, we can conclude that yes this stage can be achieved truly, but we do not have any so called hard core evidence as science demands in support of our argument. Here we have to shelter our beliefs and basing on that must bring Shraddha towards those great souls and then it will really be

easy for us to percieve that those men or women had really practised what they preached. 3) Can any ordinary man achieve that? How? We better not use this term 'Ordinary' as we get from Vedanta that every one is considered to be potentially divine and is heading fast towards perfection. So everyone will reach perfection at one time or the other. The way has been shown. By renouncing desires, to understand that 'Living life is not the goal but is a means to achieve the goal' (exactly contrary to the Western theory of enjoying the life to the hilt -- as they confuse the meaning of enjoyment or freedom). 4) How does somebody feel in that stage? What are the characteristics of such a person? It's really very difficult to answer that how somebody feels after reaching the stage. A very pleasant answer

came from Sri Ramakrishna when one of his devotees asked the same question. He aswered, 'Can you describe the taste of the real Ghee to others, churned from pure milk? At most you can say, the Ghee tastes just like the Ghee. Not much you can describe about your feelings'. We can apprehend that it is only an unspeakable joy or unending peace at the highest level of human perception even more, surpassing human perception it leads forth the soul to Divine bliss. Here of course you do not have any material desire or need or discomfort and get fully oblivious about physical needs or pains. For the characteristic of such person, the explanation is nicely described in the Gita, where Arjuna asks the same question to the Lord. He termed the perfect person as 'Sthita Pragya'. I presently forget which verses include this, but can give u later. 5) Does he/ she never make a

mistake? Are they flawless? If so how can a flawless being survive in a imperfect world like ours? It is very hard to understand the actions of the enlightened ones. In Gita, it is said, that seeing the perfect humans somebody would think him mad, somebody would ignore him or somebody would fill with respect and joy. So, in a sense we cannot judge their actions ourselves with the standard of the world as we ourselves have the vision coloured with Maya. So, their actions may seem flawed in mortal eyes but the actions can be absolutely in coordination with the absolute truth. Because they never get diverted even for a single moment from their great aim, so we can assume that in the world of 'Immortality and perfect wisdom' they and their deeds always hold true. Your last question is really answered by Swami Vivekananda somewhere in his writings which I sum up here. Truly if a person

becomes totally flawless then he can never survive in this mortal world. Absolute wrong and absolute right never exist in the truest sense. So, even the person who commits gravest mistake, has got some good in his heart as they say. So, is true for the opposite. But it no way downgrades the great prophets and their actions because the slight impurity they can have is beyond the capacity of mortals to judge really ! They certainly contain some flaws that is why they are and were here, but those flaws are only to bring them right on this earth, beside us. So, they survive for sometime in this world because they have such an impurity which cannot be judged by mortal eyes and when they leave this material body certainly they get free from that even little most imperfection and become absolutely perfect...and that is why they cannot subsist more in this world and leave for good not to come back again in this life. I tried to put the above views in my way

and if I have made any comments which are not as per with the absolute truth, then you must consider that my knowledge about all these great wisdoms are only limited and the flaws in my writing or in my ideas are only my own, for which nobody can blame the ideal that lie behind all these. The ideal and the great beings are all perfect and stand high forever, only my understanding is to be blamed if there is any fact that does not seem to be correct to the readers.

[Guest guest]

Namaste Satrajit, Thanks for this wonderful reply. Still my quest continuous. As you mentioned that 'Living life is not the goal but is a means to achieve the goal', how would I know what is the goal of my life? Where does one gets the direction? Does goal of a man differs from woman? Thanks and regards Monalisa

[Guest guest]

Namaste, The pursuit for the goal of life or striving for the highest knowledge starts within a human when he or she is driven to that line of thought. As we ask that how would we be able to know what is the goal of our life, this, strange curiosity somewhat differs from individual to individual. In my view, our asking this question carries a lot of weight and partially the answer to this question as well. Because, this is not a very small question, we can remind, that, this is the eternal search of human beings from the very time when humanity really came into being. We start thinking about the aim of ours of taking this name and body form (Nama, Rupa), spiritually which means coming from the finest state to finer, then fine and then gross, grosser and grossest and then going back again fine, finer and at last finest form...what is the purpose of all these? So, your question is

of unfathomable importance, which we would be glad to say, is answered by spirituality but remained 'undefined and unanswered' by material science, because science can not reach there from where 'human logic, even human thought returns unsuccessful, the zone which lies beyond the senses' (Excerpt from The Upanishads). So, the 'initiation' for the quest of the goal of life really matters to us. A person may not, in all of his or her life feel the need to know the goal of life (depending upon his or her past and present Karma and circumstances of life). Mostly it depends on the Past Karma or the Samskaras which one brings with oneself. So, when this striving for knowledge would start or where, it is difficult to be guessed by mere mortals like us. But it is most likely to happen with persons having very intense emotional mind set up, who, after any rude shock from the material world, suddenly realizes that he or she must strive for

something which can bring ultimate peace to the soul. Then the quest starts. Some people may have this inquisitiveness from their very childhood and attain Moksha in a very short span of time. Swami Vivekananda, in his writings (Ref. Complete works of Swami Vivekananda) described the goal of human life is 'To transit from individuality to universality'. Very nicely he made us understand what should be our goal and why. He suggested the goal as 'Forgetting the 'I' -ness and assimilating into the totality of the Universe'. His Guru, Sri Ramakrishna described it as 'Saying You and only You', where in Sanskrit Verses they say it, 'Tat twam Asi'. You are He. So, it is, loosing our sense of individual existences into the Universal. Contrary to the Western ideas again, which proclaims Individuality must be retained. But you really know that individuality exists till we differentiate. Till we think ' I am a being and I have my own choice and my ideas are

unique'. This abolition of selfishness and being infinitely unselfish has been defined as the goal of life. It is hard to tell from where a person gets direction. As I said, it really depends upon the past Karma and Samskaras. But if one feels the need to know about the goal of life, if one feels such an inquisitiveness is really making oneself impatient to know and strive for the answer, then we can assume that he or she has got the direction and certainly this direction will be evolved from the Soul itself, meaning our own soul is the seat from where we can get the direction. The differentitation between genders or sexes comes from illusion as they say. So, is true for all forms of life and non living things. The Vedanta declares 'Absolute equality' which is far far stronger view on equality than Communism and the Vedanta declares 'Absolute freedom', far stronger than the freedom preached by the West. In

the truest sense, Vedantic philosophy stands tall among every thing, since it rejects the idea of apparent differentiation made by the senses and embraces everything including the non-living beings considering them as souls dormant and unmanifested, whereas in super humans and super conscious minds the soul is manifested at the highest. So, the goal is same not only for male and female but also for humans and animals, animals and trees and even more, living and non living beings. monalisa chandra <mastpis2001 wrote: Namaste Satrajit, Thanks for this wonderful reply. Still my quest continuous. As you mentioned that 'Living life is not the goal but is a means to achieve the goal', how would I know what is the goal of my life? Where

does one gets the direction? Does goal of a man differs from woman? Thanks and regards Monalisa

Mail Use Photomail to share photos without annoying attachments.

[Guest guest]

Udayshankar, thank you very much for that wonderful response, it

answered my question exactly.

 

Sailesh

[Guest guest]

Hello Monalisa, I believe that a man's spiritual goal is the same as a woman's, life is a journey of seeing, learning, loving and giving after the final end we return to God's wonderful nature from where we originally came from. As far as material goals are concerned we all have our own personal ambitions and later we have the responsibility to create a family, some of us choose to, some of us don't, whereas the woman's goals to life compared to a man are based on cultural and individual influences, the spiritual goal is common to all life and all life is moving towards the attainment of God in its own pace. With sincere regards, Neil Mukherjee.