Avatar Varishtaya

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Dear members -

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Swamiji called Sri Ramakrishna as the Avatar Varisthaya. It seems that by this He actually graded the Avatars and placed His Guru right on top. Also, if I remember right, I read somewhere that Thakur had said that Lord Ramachadra was part incarnation of Vishnu.

 

Could someone please explain as to how does the grading system or division works in case of Avatars from the perspective of:

 

“OM – Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat purnamudachyate. Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnamevavashisyate.â€

 

or He comes from the Whole (undivided God). Still He is the Whole, and what remained after He, the Whole, comes is still Whole.

 

Jai Sri Ramakrishna

 

 

 

 

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Sri Ramakrishna Charanam Saranam; Sri Sri Ma

 

Dear Chakrabarty & the List members,

 

The Absolute Divinity remains always Absolute whether added

or subtracted. That is the meaning of Upanishadic mantra, “Purnamada, Purnamidam…….”.

The idea is that irrespective of the DEGREE OF MANIFESTATION of the

ABSOLUTE DIVINITY, IT remains always ABSOLUTE; No less, no more.

 

Whereas the idea of INCARNATION is a question of

MANIFESTATION in this MANIFESTED WORLD as seen by us. The UN-MANIFESTED PRINCIPLE

descends to the MANIFESTED WORLD with varied degrees of manifestation. The well

known Incarnation concept of Vishnu as a set of ten Incarnations itself shows a

systematic EVOLUTION of MANIFESTATION and GRADATION in expressing the UNDIVIDED

ABSOLUTE DIVINITY.

 

The first Incarnation as FISH (Matsya), a water-born

creature upgraded to an amphibian Tortoise (KURMA)and then to a land creature

of BOAR (Varaha) with all splendor of Divine Powers. Then came the half-lion-half-man

(NARA-SIMHA)and the dwarf VAMANA with unique Divine Powers.

 

The Evolution continued thus to an axe-bearing PARASURAMA

with a tremendous muscular strength coupled with austerities, of course. Then

came the perfect King of Justice and Peace as Ramachandra. Though Rama was wielding

weapons he manifested an extremely sober tone with a high degree of ETHICS.

 

The advent of Krishna was qualified as PURNA-AVATARA,

meaning Incarnation in its fullness. No further explanation is needed to project

Krishna’s unique Divine status among Hindus. Then Buddha appeared without

any physical weapons, but presented a monastic appeal underlying a non-violence

approach.

 

Sri Ramakrishna may not appear in this set of EVOLUTION as ten

incarnations; but comes under the concept of Incarnations declared by Srimat Bhagavata

thus:-

Avataram hi asamkhyeya Hareh Satwa-nidher Dwijaha” (Srimat

Bhagavatam III, I-26)- Oh Twice born, the Incarnations of Hari, the treasure-house

of Supreme Energy, are INNUMERABLE indeed).

 

What Lord Krishna achieved as a great unifier and validator of

all religious paths in India of His time was the greatest achievement as seen

in Bhagavad Gita.

 

But any student of history and religion can easily note that

Ramakrishna’s impact during the last 150 plus years in the world

religious platforms and in the lives of innumerable spiritual aspirants was

larger in many ways in such a short span of human history.

 

Hence Swamiji’s addressing of Sri Ramakrishna as

AVATARA-VARISHTA (Supreme among the Incarnations) is relevant and fault-free in

all respects.

 

Pranams,

P.S. Kamanat

Singapore

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Hari Om Ramakrishna

 

Dear Mr. Kamanat,

 

Pranam and thank you for not only responding to my query but raising another point I am confused about. I sincerely hope that you will not mind my asking some more questions which I have embedded in the body of the text of your response as below in different color:

 

The Absolute Divinity remains always Absolute whether added or subtracted. That is the meaning of Upanishadic mantra, “Purnamada, Purnamidam…….â€. The idea is that irrespective of the DEGREE OF MANIFESTATION of the ABSOLUTE DIVINITY, IT remains always ABSOLUTE; No less, no more.

 

Whereas the idea of INCARNATION is a question of MANIFESTATION in this MANIFESTED WORLD as seen by us. (Because manifestation is a process which involves the perceiver "as seen by us", does it not mean that the degree of manifestation actually depends on the ability of human perception? In other words, is it not possible that all the Incarnations are actually Purna Avatars but those who interacted with them and the biographers failed to perceive their PURNATYA?) The UN-MANIFESTED PRINCIPLE descends to the MANIFESTED WORLD with varied degrees of manifestation. The well known Incarnation concept of Vishnu as a set of ten Incarnations itself shows a systematic EVOLUTION of MANIFESTATION and GRADATION in expressing the UNDIVIDED ABSOLUTE DIVINITY.

 

The first Incarnation as FISH (Matsya), a water-born creature upgraded to an amphibian Tortoise (KURMA)and then to a land creature of BOAR (Varaha) with all splendor of Divine Powers. Then came the half-lion-half-man (NARA-SIMHA)and the dwarf VAMANA with unique Divine Powers. (Did these Incarnations in animal forms come for the deliverance of the animals they represented because there was decline in virtue amongst those animals as in "....Whenever there is decline in virtue I incarnate myself....." or for the deliverence of humans? If

their Incarnations were for the Humans then they Incarnated themselves even after humans had evolved. Also, does the Scripture suggest that once there were animals which were half-lion-half-man in the evolution but exitinct now?)

 

The Evolution continued thus to an axe-bearing PARASURAMA with a tremendous muscular strength coupled with austerities, of course. Then came the perfect King of Justice and Peace as Ramachandra. Though Rama was wielding weapons he manifested an extremely sober tone with a high degree of ETHICS.

 

The advent of Krishna was qualified as PURNA-AVATARA, meaning Incarnation in its fullness. No further explanation is needed to project Krishna’s unique Divine status among Hindus. Then Buddha appeared without any physical weapons, but presented a monastic appeal underlying a non-violence approach.

 

Sri Ramakrishna may not appear in this set of EVOLUTION as ten incarnations; but comes under the concept of Incarnations declared by Srimat Bhagavata thus:-

Avataram hi asamkhyeya Hareh Satwa-nidher Dwijaha†(Srimat Bhagavatam III, I-26)- Oh Twice born, the Incarnations of Hari, the treasure-house of Supreme Energy, are INNUMERABLE indeed).

 

What Lord Krishna achieved as a great unifier and validator of all religious paths in India of His time was the greatest achievement as seen in Bhagavad Gita.

 

But any student of history and religion can easily note that Ramakrishna’s impact during the last 150 plus years in the world religious platforms and in the lives of innumerable spiritual aspirants was larger in many ways in such a short span of human history. (How does one rule out the possibility of another future Incarnation who may out do Sri Ramakrishna achievement? We know that pointing to the west Sri Ramakrishna Himself had said that He would again Incarnate in 200 years. Also Hanumanji could not have considered Lord

Ramachandra as not an Avatar Varishtaya.)

 

Hence Swamiji’s addressing of Sri Ramakrishna as AVATARA-VARISHTA (Supreme among the Incarnations) is relevant and fault-free in all respects.

 

Sorry for so many doubts.

 

Jai Gurumaharaj Ji Ki Jai

 

Utpal Chakrabarty

 

 

 

P.S.Kamanat <kamanatRamakrishna Cc: u_chakrabarty_99; Jay <jay.lakhaniSat, 16 January, 2010 10:32:12 PMRe: Avatar Varishtaya

 

Sri Ramakrishna Charanam Saranam; Sri Sri Ma

 

Dear Chakrabarty & the List members,

 

The Absolute Divinity remains always Absolute whether added or subtracted. That is the meaning of Upanishadic mantra, “Purnamada, Purnamidam…….â€. The idea is that irrespective of the DEGREE OF MANIFESTATION of the ABSOLUTE DIVINITY, IT remains always ABSOLUTE; No less, no more.

 

Whereas the idea of INCARNATION is a question of MANIFESTATION in this MANIFESTED WORLD as seen by us. The UN-MANIFESTED PRINCIPLE descends to the MANIFESTED WORLD with varied degrees of manifestation. The well known Incarnation concept of Vishnu as a set of ten Incarnations itself shows a systematic EVOLUTION of MANIFESTATION and GRADATION in expressing the UNDIVIDED ABSOLUTE DIVINITY.

 

The first Incarnation as FISH (Matsya), a water-born creature upgraded to an amphibian Tortoise (KURMA)and then to a land creature of BOAR (Varaha) with all splendor of Divine Powers. Then came the half-lion-half-man (NARA-SIMHA)and the dwarf VAMANA with unique Divine Powers.

 

The Evolution continued thus to an axe-bearing PARASURAMA with a tremendous muscular strength coupled with austerities, of course. Then came the perfect King of Justice and Peace as Ramachandra. Though Rama was wielding weapons he manifested an extremely sober tone with a high degree of ETHICS.

 

The advent of Krishna was qualified as PURNA-AVATARA, meaning Incarnation in its fullness. No further explanation is needed to project Krishna’s unique Divine status among Hindus. Then Buddha appeared without any physical weapons, but presented a monastic appeal underlying a non-violence approach.

 

Sri Ramakrishna may not appear in this set of EVOLUTION as ten incarnations; but comes under the concept of Incarnations declared by Srimat Bhagavata thus:-

Avataram hi asamkhyeya Hareh Satwa-nidher Dwijaha†(Srimat Bhagavatam III, I-26)- Oh Twice born, the Incarnations of Hari, the treasure-house of Supreme Energy, are INNUMERABLE indeed).

 

What Lord Krishna achieved as a great unifier and validator of all religious paths in India of His time was the greatest achievement as seen in Bhagavad Gita.

 

But any student of history and religion can easily note that Ramakrishna’s impact during the last 150 plus years in the world religious platforms and in the lives of innumerable spiritual aspirants was larger in many ways in such a short span of human history.

 

Hence Swamiji’s addressing of Sri Ramakrishna as AVATARA-VARISHTA (Supreme among the Incarnations) is relevant and fault-free in all respects.

 

Pranams,

P.S. Kamanat

Singapore

 

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Thakur is "Avatara Barishtha" becus He attained the Supreme goal by travelling all paths... Hinduism, Islam & Christianity...He actually lived the Truth that all roads lead to that only One.......no other seer has attained this feat!!

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Hari Om Ramakrishna

 

Dear M/s. Kamanat, Mukherjee and other group members

 

Pranam,

 

Many thanks for sharing your thoughts with me.

 

Mr. Kamanat -

 

 

I used to think that although anything which has name and form is limited, an Avatar is as unlimited as the Absolute is. Jesus was both the son of God (an Avatar) and Father in the Heaven (Absolute) also. Thakur is both Mr. Gadadhar Chatterjee, the Avatar and Ma Kali also. No one had to perceive it - both Jesus and Thakur actually said it. Hence I never thought that they are eternal and do not have self life and expiry dates etc.

 

And if I remember what Swamiji had said while musing over His maha Samadhi was "..the work I have done will see it through for the next 1500 years..." or something to that effect referring to His own work. I was not aware that He meant to say that Thakur will be forgotten after 1500 years when Lord Ramachandra is being remembered although He predates history, Lord Buddha is 2500 year old and Jesus is 2000 years old, none of them being "Avatar Varisthaya".

 

Mr. Mukherjee -

 

 

Please note that the question came up spontaneously in my mind when I was meditating on the import of the sloka of my original mail Also, as for me - I do not have any refuge other than in Thalur's feet - He is my only refuge whether He is Avatar Varishtaya or not. Eulolizing - singing Thakur's praise to me is like "preaching the converted" (although I am sure I have not understood Thakur the way Swamiji did)

 

The moot point of the discussion is - does the scripture suggest grading of the direct Avatars (i.e., in absolute terms) and accept that some direct Avatars are only partial Incarnations (provided my interpretation of the said sloka is correct)?

 

It is not out of place to mention that even Rajaji (Chakrabarthy Rajagopolachari) in Ramayana admitted that the common explanation that the reason why the 4 brothers, all of whom were Avatars, had different degree of divinity in them was attributable to the different quantities of Payasam their mothers ate with the above sloka.

 

Thakur had said that He would re-incarnate in 200 years and with Him both the Holy Mother (as His Divine consort) and Swamiji (as the main disciple) would also come. Now, is it not possible that the future Swamiji would write another Hymn calling the future Sri Ramakrishna the Highest Incarnation. This I am saying because we believe that Swamiji is who was Mahabeerji of Lord Ramachandra for whom the latter was Avatar Variathaya.

 

Jai Gurumaharaj Ji Ki Jai