Re:

[Guest guest]

, " " <

zrosenberg@e...> wrote:

 

> I try to look at marijuana as an herbal medicinal, albeit a very powerful

> one that descends stomach qi rebellion, regulates and scatters qi,

 

I would also say that it stimulates spleen/stomach qi function in some

fashion, as it increase appetite, not just relieve nausea -- perhaps

this is due to qi regulation; it was taught to me as a western herbal

that also appears to regulate qi in the female reproductive system,

relieving cramps in menses or childbirth (susun weed); As it used to

relieve pretty severe spasmodic pain, it may actually be considered

blood moving. it is definitely a vata increasing herb in ayurveda and

vata disorders overlap with TCM qi disroders in some ways. Flaws says

it stimulates ministerial fire. It was used for depression in

traditional european and american eclectic herbology. It was often

categorized as an expectorant in western herbology, like other resins,

scu as myrhh. Thus, it may resolve phlegm (of course, smoking it is

counterproductive for this function). It was also used for chronic

lower jiao discharges and urinary dysfunction in eclectic herbology, so

it may transform dampness. I would say it is bitter, spicy,aromatic,

slightly warming.

 

[Guest guest]

thanks

alon

[Guest guest]

Thanks due you notice increased low back pain in pot smokers

Alon

[Guest guest]

>hi, i've been reading your messages for a couple of weeks. i myself am an

>acupuncture student. (just completed my second year!!!) i was wondering

>about why your interested in studding tcm, are you practitioners and

>students looking for more information, are you looking for a tcm school, or

>are you looking to self diagnose? kira

 

The readership is very varied on here - from people brand new to TCM to

students to professionals.

 

I got interested in TCM because I've had CFIDS (Chronic Fatigue Immune

Dysfunction Syndrome for almost 27 years, and I've gotten the most help from

TCM of anything. The more I learn the more I'm able to finetune treatment

and the more I improve.

 

I signed up for the course at the RMHI because I thought it was going to be

a very good quality course and would help me sharpen my analysis skills.

I'm interested in the hard to treat cases - the very complex cases - because

I've been in the position of having a hard to diagnose and hard to treat

medical condition and not having much help or hope. I came down with CFIDS

10 years before the outbreak in Incline Village, Nevada first began to bring

this to the attention of the medical establishment and to the public.

 

I was amazed that complaints which Western medicine doesn't pay much

attention to - like the extreme sensitivity to cold and feeling so cold -

are paid a lot of attention to in TCM. Not only that but someone actually

knows how to treat the problems! My primary problem was Kidney Yang

Deficiency, but there were a host of other problems as well. In 20+ years a

lot can go wrong and the problems can get very complex.

 

Something else that really impressed me was that 3 weeks after starting on

the herbs I was able to start a regular exercise program. It was very light

and there was nothing aerobic, but it was a regular exercise program.

Overdoing physically - especially aerobic exercise - will make a PWC sicker.

I could have exercised before this; I just couldn't have done it

regularly. It might have been a week or longer before I had recovered to

the point where I could do it again. The herbs changed that, and I was very

favorably impressed. I also began to lose the extreme sensitivity to cold.

I'm still not normal, but I'm a lot better than I was. At least I'm no

longer having to take several hot baths a day in winter in order to warm up.

I also have a lot more energy than I used to have and can do a lot more

things than I used to be able to do.

 

The number one herb that is helping me is ginger - both fresh and dried. I

need other herbs as well, but ginger seems to be critical in my case.

Epimedium, a Yang tonic herb, also stands out as something that helps a

great deal. I've experimented with other Yang tonic herbs, but that one

works the best for me.

 

Victoria

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Judy Fitzgerald wrote:

 

> The number one herb that is helping me is ginger - both fresh and dried. I

> need other herbs as well, but ginger seems to be critical in my case.

> Epimedium, a Yang tonic herb, also stands out as something that helps a

> great deal. I've experimented with other Yang tonic herbs, but that one

> works the best for me.

 

Do you usually use individual herbs, or formulas? Which formulas have

worked the best for you?

 

--

Al Stone L.Ac.

<AlStone

http://www.BeyondWellBeing.com

 

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

 

Attachment: vcard [not shown]

[Guest guest]

>Do you usually use individual herbs, or formulas? Which formulas have

>worked the best for you?

 

I usually use mixtures of herbs, but ginger tea and epimedium tea are two I

can take by themselves when I need a little extra of what they offer.

 

I'm not sure, but I believe the TCM herbalist I originally saw designed a

formula for me instead of using a modification of a classical formula. I

had a lot of problems, and they were complex. In addition to the base

formula in a tea there were osha capsules for infection (but they didn't

work as well as echinacea in my case). There was also a formula in capsules

for the colonic inertia problems, a formula in capsules for female

reproductive system health, and a formula in tinture for the kidneys. I

believe the capsules were primarily Western formulas. Seems like there may

have been a tincture for infection in addition to the osha capsules. He

also started me on epidmedium tea by itself and gave the ok for the ginger

tea by itself. In fact, the first time I saw him, as he was mixing the

herbs for the tea, he gave me a piece of dried ginger to chew. It was one

of those rare times when I knew that something (the ginger) was very right

for me. Briefly he had me on Minor Blue Dragon tea for a few months. He

restricted me to one bag per month.

 

He definitely knew his stuff, and he taught me a lot. I began to read all I

could on TCM and cautiously experiment. With the exception of the Minor

Blue Dragon, I've done better on teas designed for me than relying on

classical formulas. When I was seeing the herbalist, he told me why he was

including each herb. As I said, he taught me a lot about mixtures of herbs.

 

By necessity I've had to do a great deal of cautious experimenting.

Sometimes I need more than one tea. There's a base tea (which changes as

needed) which takes care of the more pressing problems. Sometimes I add a

one or more secondary tea mixtures for specific problems as needed. Like in

the case of needing something extra for Wind Chill recently. Usually I need

to take much lower dosages of herbs than most people. Requiring lower than

normal dosages of both prescription drugs and herbs is common for people

with CFIDS. But sometimes I do need a normal dose. (Getting the correct

dose can be one of the hardest things to do when someone is a PWC.) In my

particular case I've learned that teas which are a mixture of several herbs

for a specific pressing problem work best. For example, I put a lot of

different herbs which release Wind Chill into the Wind Chill tea. I also

included one herb to move Qi. In my particular case, Stagnant Qi due to

Cold can be a pressing problem.

 

I've found that acupressure helps a great deal. For that matter, so does

massage. I have one of those electric massagers I sit against while

watching TV. I've learned to think of it as preventive maintenance.<G> Qi

gong helps. I can actually feel something loosening up inside.

 

Sometimes I will use the acupressure for specific problems that need a

little extra attention. Sometimes I will use the acupressure when I have

opposite problems, especially when they can be tricky to treat. For

example, I have both Dampness and Dryness problems. Something like this can

be treated just using herbs. (This was one of the things the herbalist

taught me.) But I've found that acupressure combined with herbs can be

particularly advantageous when treating contraditory problems.

 

How bad were my problems before I started on alternative medicine? In

addition to the severe fatigue and cold problems, I had severe allergies.

Existing allergies kept getting worst, and I was developing new ones. More

and more foods and medications were starting to bother me. I had problems

breathing and a lot of digestive system problems. I have a history of

recurring and chronic mononucleosis going back for sure to my teens and

possibly to when I was 11-years-old. (Back then they didn't believe that

kids could get mono. They also thought that once you had mono you didn't

get it again. Wrong!)

 

I had the symptoms of polycythemia vera (too many red blood cells). I was

ending up in ER with dehydration problems. (The aversion to drinking and

not feeling thirsty because of the Dampness AND the Cold problems.) There

were the headaches. Most of the time I had a headache, and when one really

got ahold of me, it was crippling. The best I could do was a shot of

demerol in the ER which blunted the headache enough so I could sleep through

the worst of it. I had high blood pressure. I had arthritis and bursitis.

Had had arthritis since I was a teen. Even though I had high blood

pressure, I couldn't maintain a stable blood pressure, nor did it go up when

it needed to. I would change position - especially when I was bending over

and raised my head - and almost pass out. I'm very hypoglycemic.

 

During the worst of this, I couldn't use a computer, couldn't read, couldn't

follow the most mindless sitcom on TV. Before I got quite that sick, I did

manage to cook supper most nights. A lot of PWCs have one thing that they

refuse to give up because it's sort of a link with normalcy. For some PWCs

it's getting dressed each day. For me it was preparing supper. The odd

reasoning was that as long as I was managing to cook supper each night I

couldn't be that sick and there was hope. " Cooking " supper consisted of

getting a pizza or TV dinners out of the freezer, then having to sit in a

chair by the refrigerator and rest for several minutes before I could make

it the few steps across the kitchen floor to the microwave. On my " high "

energy nights I would get ambitious and do soup and sandwiches. I would

have to put the soup on very low once I got the can opened and into the

sauce pan and go lay down for a while. That's how exhausted I was.

 

The day I found out the monospot test was positive again was the day I

turned to alternative medicine. I knew conventional medicine had nothing to

help. Plus, by that time I was reacting to a lot of the pills I was being

given for various things. I had my husband take me to a health food store,

and the clerk looked up what was recommended for mono and for CFIDS. I was

on some very high dosages of vitamins, minerals, and a few supplements for a

while. Back then I was so bad off that when I took the vitamins and other

things, I had to write down each thing as I took it. If I waited until I

took everything I couldn't remember if I had taken it or not. I was having

some severe memory problems. And depth perception problems.

 

I started improving on the mega dosages of vitamins and minerals. The next

step up for me was seeing a doctor in a large city that treated a lot of

PWCS. He placed me on magnesium and B12 shots, and I took another big step

upwards.

 

The third big step upwards was seeing the TCM herbalist. He got better

results than anything before. And improvement continues as long as I stay

on the TCM. I wish I had found out about TCM years ago. If I had I

probably would never have gotten as sick as I did.

 

Using TCM for CFIDS has been like backing up through a lot of years and

through worsening symptoms. I had 4 major flare-ups. Each time I had a

major flare-up I got worse. Even though I eventually was able to go into

partial remission, I never fully regained what was lost with each major

flare-up until I started on TCM. I eventually regained everything I could

do during the 3rd. partial remission before the 4th major flare-up. I have

now regained a lot of what I could do during the second partial remission

that was lost with the 3rd major flare-up. I'm to the point where I've

regained more than 50% of what was lost with that 3rd major flare-up.

 

There's a lot that alternative medicine - especially can do. I speak

from personal experience.

 

Victoria

 

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Hello Everyone! Hope all is well with everyone? I am doing fairly well now. I

have lost 18 lbs. so far. I miss talking to all of you. I read all the mail

but just haven't felt to much like writing till now. I'm still at my

daughters. Working with a physical therapist in exercise. I do it twice a

week with the therapist and the rest of the week with my daughter. I'm now

able to walk around without getting out of breathe. I do feel rather well.

Florie and Ninox a special hello to. Hope all had a very nice holiday season.

Hope to hear from anyone soon. My best for the New Year. Ellie

[Guest guest]

Ellie--

 

Congratulations on your great progress! I'm sure that you're feeling much

better--both physically and about yourself. I'll bet you've reached the point

where people are noticing your weight loss and complementing you on it!!

 

Keep up the great work. This is going to be *your* year! You're gonna get that

surgery, get better, and keep on keepin' on!

 

Stay in touch, please. A whole lot of people are rooting for you and wishing

you well.

 

Florie

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

hello group

 

I'm looking for a video explaining the concepts of Chinese medicine to Western medical patients. I've been asked to work with a local doctor in his office and need to introduce traditional Chinese medicine to his existing patients.

 

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

 

Richard Campbell

 

Tao clinic

[Guest guest]

, RDC1richard@a... wrote:

> hello group

>

> I'm looking for a video explaining the concepts of Chinese medicine to

 

 

richard

 

I think ITM has a good intro video. check out www.itmonline.org

 

[Guest guest]

I wander what people are doing for patients that have clear phlegm signs such as full sinuses, over weight, sleep pulses but with a completely pealed tongue.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Todd a while ago you posted an email saying that you have better results treating diabetes with phlegm resolving that Yin/Spleen issues can you elaborate.

 

Also on the same line. Has I posted before, what do people do in patients with clear signs of phlegm but a totally deficient Yin tongue. I am treating such a diabetic right now except that her tongue is also swallen. Because she also has shen stuff and fear I have been using wen don tong with wu wei zi, sek chang pu, san yao, yu zhu, lin zi, lin so, yi yi ren

Thanks

Alon

[Guest guest]

Christopher Hobbs has good instructions in his book Medicinal Mushrooms.

It basically involves decocting down to a thick sludge, mixing with a

carrier such as Ci wu jia (eleutherococcus), drying in fruit leather

trays in a dehydrator and crumbling the " herb leather " .

 

There will be loss of volatiles in a home process such as this.

 

Karen Vaughan

CreationsGarden

***************************************

Email advice is not a substitute for medical treatment.

" A failure is a man who has blundered, but is not able to cash in on the

experience. " --Elbert Hubbard

 

______________

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!

Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:

http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

[Guest guest]

on 2/5/01 10:27 AM, Garry Seifert at seifert wrote:

 

 

>

> In essence you are saying treat according to diagnosis. I wholeheartedly

> agree. It was not my intention to suggest a mechanical approach. Treatment

> should always be according to diagnosis.

 

I assumed you'd agree. My point here really is not to discredit at all the

approach of clearing heat toxins, as it is important and should be

considered fairly often with cancer patients. The issue is that in modern

practice, with so many different patients having such complex patterns, that

we need to have access to a variety of approaches: Li-Zhu medicine, Wen

Bing/four aspect, Shang Han/six channel, Nourish Yin school, Cool/Cold

school, Wang Qing-ren's blood stasis school, among others. We need

grounding in pattern diagnosis, but access to different approaches largely

developed during the Han, Jin-Yuan, and Qing dynasties.

>

> I do however think that it is potentially easy for heat toxins to be

> overlooked in pattern diagnose of cancers where there are symptoms of

> vacuity and heat. It is easy for heat symptoms to be rationalized as

> outcomes of yin vacuity, rather than seen as consequences of damage by heat

> toxins. Practioners who understand pattern diagnosis but have not had much

> opportunity to study the aetiology of cancer and the effects of radiation

> therapy from a TCM perspective make this error quite commonly. It is not

> always easy to find the cause in pattern differentiation and determine

> treatments according to causes.

 

Radiation therapy clearly calls for clearing heat toxins, and sometimes with

chemotherapy as well. As far as cancer toxin, clearing heat is important,

but sometimes damp-heat is the byproduct of cancer toxin. For this, a

different approach may be necessary.

>

> Having made the diagnosis of heat toxin, it is generally most important to

> use large doses of herbs for clearing heat toxins. If one doesn't do this

> one is not determining treatments according to causes. I wouldn't disagree

> that even after heat toxins have been diagnosed, there are times when herbs

> for clearing heat toxins are inappropriate, but these are rare. Most of the

> time heat clearing toxin resolving herbs should be used.

 

Still, one has to be careful not to damage spleen qi or yin. Also, if the

patient is undergoing chemotherapy treatment, the yin and/or spleen qi is

often already damaged. One has to be careful giving such strong herbal

treatment to weakened patients.

>

> It would be interesting to compare notes on approaches to treating the

> different stages of the different types of cancer. I ran numerous seminars

> and clinical practicum's with Prof. Zhou Dai Han a few years ago. Most of my

> understanding re. the TCM diagnosis and treatment of cancer comes from

> these.

 

I hope you will be interested in sharing Professor Zhou's ideas with us.

 

 

>

[Guest guest]

on 2/6/01 11:03 AM, at zrosenberg wrote:

 

> on 2/5/01 10:27 AM, Garry Seifert at seifert wrote:

>

>

>>

>> In essence you are saying treat according to diagnosis. I wholeheartedly

>> agree. It was not my intention to suggest a mechanical approach. Treatment

>> should always be according to diagnosis.

>

> I assumed you'd agree. My point here really is not to discredit at all the

> approach of clearing heat toxins, as it is important and should be

> considered fairly often with cancer patients. The issue is that in modern

> practice, with so many different patients having such complex patterns, that

> we need to have access to a variety of approaches: Li-Zhu medicine, Wen

> Bing/four aspect, Shang Han/six channel, Nourish Yin school, Cool/Cold

> school, Wang Qing-ren's blood stasis school, among others. We need

> grounding in pattern diagnosis, but access to different approaches largely

> developed during the Han, Jin-Yuan, and Qing dynasties.

>>

>> I do however think that it is potentially easy for heat toxins to be

>> overlooked in pattern diagnose of cancers where there are symptoms of

>> vacuity and heat. It is easy for heat symptoms to be rationalized as

>> outcomes of yin vacuity, rather than seen as consequences of damage by heat

>> toxins. Practioners who understand pattern diagnosis but have not had much

>> opportunity to study the aetiology of cancer and the effects of radiation

>> therapy from a TCM perspective make this error quite commonly. It is not

>> always easy to find the cause in pattern differentiation and determine

>> treatments according to causes.

>

> Radiation therapy clearly calls for clearing heat toxins, and sometimes with

> chemotherapy as well. As far as cancer toxin, clearing heat is important,

> but sometimes damp-heat is the byproduct of cancer toxin. For this, a

> different approach may be necessary.

>>

>> Having made the diagnosis of heat toxin, it is generally most important to

>> use large doses of herbs for clearing heat toxins. If one doesn't do this

>> one is not determining treatments according to causes. I wouldn't disagree

>> that even after heat toxins have been diagnosed, there are times when herbs

>> for clearing heat toxins are inappropriate, but these are rare. Most of the

>> time heat clearing toxin resolving herbs should be used.

 

 

 

I am interested in sharing strategies for cancer treatment as well. I have

been working steadily on a fu zheng system, so to speak- with a central unit

and branches off that.

Some comments on radiation TX: No one has mentioned the importance of

invigorating the blood in radiation strategies. Radiation causes tissue

sclerosis, which is best addressed w/ blood movers. Furthermore, they also

reduce radiation resistance. The most important herb for this is dan shen.

Also, I always use cooling qi tonics- tai zi shen, xi yang shen, sha shen.

finally I always include herbs for fire poison. These herbs help to reduce

inflammation and help dead cells catabolize. I prefer jin yin hua, as it is

sweet, and therefore is less drying, protects the yin more, etc. This is not

a complete list of what I do, but it gives you a sense of where my head's

at.

Cara

[Guest guest]

ÿþ

[Guest guest]

 

alonmarcus [alonmarcus]

Wednesday, February 14, 2001 1:33 PM

 

 

 

If we could only

trust the quoted Chinese studies this type of book would truly be the model

for books to come.

Alon

 

Could you elaborate more on this, I guess I missed some pervious discussion?

 

-

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

When a person picks up a book, one of the things that helps one decide

whether to trust the information inside is the credentials of the

author(s). While many (especially older) Chinese language Chinese medical

books do not contain biographies of the author(s), most of the Chinese

language clinical manuals I own have prefaces written by individuals other

than the author(s). In these prefaces, there is usually some indication of

the length and breadth of the authors' clinical experience or credentials.

We need to assess these the same way we assess the credentials of any

English language author. Nowadays, many Chinese books, epecially the big,

expensive textbooks, include color pictures of the authors as well as

professional bios. Typically, the authors are persons in their 50s, 60s,

and 70s.

 

Bob

 

 

> [Original Message]

> <alonmarcus

>

> 2/16/2001 2:10:07 PM

>

>

> Western medical disease down into several Chinese patterns, what we are

> saying is that, based on real-life clinical experience, these are the

> Chinese medical patterns one sees most often in patients with these

Western

> disease diagnoses.

> >>>>>The question is it really reallife clinical experience? It is my

> position that much of the literature from China is not and is often a

> theoretical exercise.

> When it is from a real-life large patient base information it is extremely

> useful and I would say is better than the classically poorly defined and

> applicable to the modern patient. So to sum up I strongly support the

> process of modernizing TCM and think this is were the future is. But it

> should only be done though real-time-life clinical studies and analysis. I

> do not know if things have changed in China but do we have people on the

> list that are involved in clinical research and publishing in china today.

> Alon

>

>

>

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

 

 

 

Bob Flaws

Blue Poppy Enterprises, Inc. " Medical Style of A New Generation "

bobflaws

5441 Western Ave., #2

Boulder, CO 80301 USA

Tel. 303-447-8372

Fax 303-245-8362

[Guest guest]

Bob,

 

 

When a person picks up a book, one of the things that helps one decide

whether to trust the information inside is the credentials of the

author(s).

 

Good to see you back on the list. I have been

travelling for the past week or so in Hong Kong

and Macau where I was researching Chinese medical

education in those areas, so I haven't yet caught

up on the various threads on this and the

Chinese_Medicine.net list, but I wanted to

second the opinion you state here.

 

I believe that the issue of credentialling

is another fundamental that has been woefully

overlooked in this field for the past

couple of decades.

 

An enormous amount of confusion has been

introduced into the field by way of the

post-nomial alphabet soup that has been

cooked up by various individuals and

organizations.

 

It needs to be sorted out.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

When a person picks up a book, one of the things that helps one decidewhether to trust the information inside is the credentials of theauthor(s). While many (especially older) Chinese language Chinese medicalbooks do not contain biographies of the author(s), most of the Chineselanguage clinical manuals I own have prefaces written by individuals otherthan the author(s). In these prefaces, there is usually some indication ofthe length and breadth of the authors' clinical experience or credentials.We need to assess these the same way we assess the credentials of anyEnglish language author. Nowadays, many Chinese books, epecially the big,expensive textbooks, include color pictures of the authors as well asprofessional bios. Typically, the authors are persons in their 50s, 60s,and 70s.>>>>>>I can only speek to my experience. When I was in China the heads of departments often published studies and case studies in journals. These were all (Lao) old "masters" and because of that were never challenged, even though everybody and I mean everybody new that many times they wrote up cases that were completely made-up and studies that were not really done. When I confronted the younger Dr about this they often said things like well the studies probably summarize their experience even if were not reflecting real cases or studies, or the pressure to write is very large in order for the department to get money, or well they are the old (Lao) masters etc.

I understand that this is a problem in Japan as well and even in western med literature. Now I am not saying that all of what we read in the west med journals are true, there is much fraud as well, but not to the extent of what I saw in China. To me this is a major issue we need to address here in the west. Since Chutzpa as well as open challenge of the so called older master is not within the oriental culture.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

To me this is a major issue we need to address here in the west.

Since Chutzpa as well as open challenge of the so called older master

is not within the oriental culture.

 

Your pronouncements on the subject of oriental culture

more or less demand a response. To be brief, it seems

to me that you have a rather superficial understanding

of what you saw and experienced during your Chinese

sojourn. What you have stated here is a fairly

typical and absolutely incorrect stereotype about

" oriental culture. "

 

It is simply not true that chutzpa and open challenge of

masters, be they old or young, is not within oriental

culture. Look at the situation in Japan where the PM's

resignation is now being called for because of his

behavior upon learning of the accident involving

the Japanese fishing trawler and the American submarine.

 

Look at the Fa Lun Gong self-immolations in Tian An Men.

 

Look at the union leaders at Daewoo in Korea who are

literally hunting down the former president of that

company to bring him to justice for his financial

crimes.

 

If these are not open challenges to authority, what is?

 

In my limited experience with Chinese people I have

found them to be full of chutzpah, deliriously

happy to challenge authority at every opportunity

and doggedly determined to correct the errors of

their teachers. Were this not the case, how

could it be that they have accumulated so vast

a literature of mutually contradictory findings?

The Chinese have toiled tirelessly at correcting

their medical literature for centuries.

 

They go about all of this in ways that often

escape the view, let alone the understanding

of outsiders.

 

Of course, the mores and the methods of different

cultures differ. But what purpose does it serve to

make the kind of generalizations that you seem

so fond of making?

 

You know, a lot of Palestinians have

had a bad time in Israel and a lot of Israelies

have a rough go of it in " Palestine. " Just look

at what the entrenchment of such prejudices has

wrought in that part of the world!

 

It is not chutzpah to make such generalizations.

It is narrow minded. It is bigotry. And,

as in this case, it is just plain wrong.

 

I don't intend this as inflammatory. But you

should be aware that in the future if and when

you make such remarks, I will challenge them.

 

And if you wonder why, I will challenge them

because to let them stand unchallenged undermines

the efforts of large numbers of people who

work day in and day out to foster mutual

understanding in order to overcome

the considerable barriers that exist between

people from disparate backgrounds who seek

to come together to cooperate in compiling

a usable foundation for Chinese medicine

to develop and flourish.

 

If you think you are right and want to fight

about it, then let's fight it out.

 

As you point out, there is a great deal

of fraudulent reporting in medical journals,

but I submit that if we truly aim to come

to terms with it...and to reduce its volume

and influence, we have to look beneath the

surface and the stereortypes and understand

the particular motivations of the particular

individuals involved in any particular instance.

 

If I were to generalize, I would suggest

that such fraud is by and large motivated

by greed and conducted by individuals who

care more for their pocketbooks and their

bank accounts than for their chosen professions

or their fellow human beings.

 

Sadly, such conditions seem to be more

or less universal and in no way limited

to oriental or any other culture.

 

Thus what we have to deal with, wherever

we are, East or West, are matters of personal

integrity and dedication to knowing and disseminating

the truth of things.

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

I spend a large amount of time each week reading and translating the modern

Chinese medical literature and especially Chinese medical journal articles.

The majority of these make sound clinical sense, at least in terms of my

own 22 years of clinical experience. Granted, every now and then you come

across something that is complete dreck. Also granted, for a number of

reasons, we cannot usually attain the same positive outcomes rates as

Chinese doctors in China. However, if the majority of contemporary Chinese

medical studies were untruthful fabrications, then the whole system

would've collapsed by now. Practitioners, such as myself, read these

articles to get fresh insight and new opinions on how to treat real-life

patients which we then apply in our practices. If the protocols did not

work, then the whole edifice of modern Chinese medicine would self-destruct.

 

In addition, similar to the issue of authors' credentials, I think one must

read the literature critically and actively. Based on what one already

knows, does the information in an article hold water? Does it match one's

own clinical experience? Does the cohort description describe you own

patients, or, more importantly, the specific patient you happen to have in

front of you right now? If one compares 25 articles on the Chinese

medicinal treatment of endometriosis, some of them are going to be

altogether overly simplistic, e.g., all endometriosis is blood stasis.

Others will promote one idea (such as supplementing the qi) or treatment

bias, while yet others take some other track (such as supplementing the

kidneys). When one reads a large number of these, then one is free to pick

and choose those protocols that best fit the patient one has before one. Or

one can craft an even more complete, more rounded and nuanced understanding

and treatment approach from a combination of several different points of

view.

 

I am not by any means a sinophile. I am not defending the Chinese medical

literature because it is Chinese. Like seemingly yourself, I have a pretty

jaundiced view of the Chinese. (I saw Zhang Yi-mou's Not One Less last

night and loved it!) However, in my own experience, if we are going to use

mature medical judgment, we need to keep as unbiased a point of view as

possible. Bias leads to knee-jerk reactions, and there are, in my

experience, way too many students and practitioners who believe everything

ancient is good and everything modern is bad when it comes to Chinese

medicine. I think this is an extremely naive and deleterious point of view,

which I don't think you ascribe to, but which we need to be careful not to

unwittingly play into and aggravate.

 

Bob

 

> [Original Message]

> <alonmarcus

>

> 2/17/2001 9:57:36 AM

> Re:

>

> When a person picks up a book, one of the things that helps one decide

> whether to trust the information inside is the credentials of the

> author(s). While many (especially older) Chinese language Chinese medical

> books do not contain biographies of the author(s), most of the Chinese

> language clinical manuals I own have prefaces written by individuals other

> than the author(s). In these prefaces, there is usually some indication of

> the length and breadth of the authors' clinical experience or credentials.

> We need to assess these the same way we assess the credentials of any

> English language author. Nowadays, many Chinese books, epecially the big,

> expensive textbooks, include color pictures of the authors as well as

> professional bios. Typically, the authors are persons in their 50s, 60s,

> and 70s.

> >>>>>>I can only speek to my experience. When I was in China the heads of

departments often published studies and case studies in journals. These

were all (Lao) old " masters " and because of that were never challenged,

even though everybody and I mean everybody new that many times they wrote

up cases that were completely made-up and studies that were not really

done. When I confronted the younger Dr about this they often said things

like well the studies probably summarize their experience even if were not

reflecting real cases or studies, or the pressure to write is very large in

order for the department to get money, or well they are the old (Lao)

masters etc.

> I understand that this is a problem in Japan as well and even in western

med literature. Now I am not saying that all of what we read in the west

med journals are true, there is much fraud as well, but not to the extent

of what I saw in China. To me this is a major issue we need to address here

in the west. Since Chutzpa as well as open challenge of the so called older

master is not within the oriental culture.

> Alon

>

 

 

 

Bob Flaws

Blue Poppy Enterprises, Inc. " Medical Style of A New Generation "

bobflaws

5441 Western Ave., #2

Boulder, CO 80301 USA

Tel. 303-447-8372

Fax 303-245-8362

[Guest guest]

Alon,

 

Cure rates of 100% are very, very rare in my reading of the Chinese medical

journal literature. Effectiveness rates, including cure, marked effect, and

some effect, typicaly do reach into the 85-90% range. However, the cure

rate is usually only 10-30% of that total effectiveness rate. Total

effectiveness rates which include basically any kind of improvement in the

90% range are not, in my experience, at all unreasonable or unusual.

 

Bob

 

 

> [Original Message]

> <alonmarcus

>

> Cc:

> 2/19/2001 2:26:10 PM

>

>

> Your pronouncements on the subject of oriental culture

> more or less demand a response. To be brief, it seems

> to me that you have a rather superficial understanding

> of what you saw and experienced during your Chinese

> sojourn. What you have stated here is a fairly

> typical and absolutely incorrect stereotype about

> " oriental culture. "

> >>>>>I totally disagree although things are changing.

>

> It is simply not true that chutzpa and open challenge of

> masters, be they old or young, is not within oriental

> culture. Look at the situation in Japan where the PM's

> resignation is now being called for because of his

> behavior upon learning of the accident involving

> the Japanese fishing trawler and the American submarine.

>

> >>>>>In a political sense things are changing although wars and such, have

> always been part of the seen.

> The relationship between " master disciple " Cohai Sempi, are completely

> different than general political straggle. These are poor examples of the

> subject we are discussing.

>

> Look at the Fa Lun Gong self-immolations in Tian An Men.

> >>>>Again political

>

>

>

> They go about all of this in ways that often

> escape the view, let alone the understanding

> of outsiders.

> >>>>Well as one that was married to a Japanese women and trained in Aikido

> for many years I have been on the inside more than once.

>

>

>

> It is not chutzpah to make such generalizations.

> It is narrow minded. It is bigotry. And,

> as in this case, it is just plain wrong.

>

> >>>>>I cant remember the Journal but about 10 years ago there was an

article

> written in a western medical journal on this subject by a young Japanese

> author. He basically stated the same things and that the traditional

> master/disciple still has a strong influence on modern western medical

> writings. If I can dig it out I will post it.

>

> Although I am sensitive to the question of bigotry and generalizations,

the

> sheer volume of close to 100% success treating almost anything on the

plant

> support my argument beyond this discussion. If you think that TCM can cure

> everything I something to sell you.

> Alon

>

>

>

>

>

> As you point out, there is a great deal

> of fraudulent reporting in medical journals,

> but I submit that if we truly aim to come

> to terms with it...and to reduce its volume

> and influence, we have to look beneath the

> surface and the stereotypes and understand

> the particular motivations of the particular

> individuals involved in any particular instance.

> >>>Again here I can only speak from my first hand experience

>

>

Chinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare

practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics

specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional

services, including board approved online continuing education.

>

>

>

 

 

 

Bob Flaws

Blue Poppy Enterprises, Inc. " Medical Style of A New Generation "

bobflaws

5441 Western Ave., #2

Boulder, CO 80301 USA

Tel. 303-447-8372

Fax 303-245-8362

[Guest guest]

So I also think we need we alsoneed to be careful with such carefully constructed, double bind, "goldstandard" research protocols which do not test clinical realities

>>>That's true and a huge challenge for us to deal with.

Alon

[Guest guest]

Cure rates of 100% are very, very rare in my reading of the Chinese medicaljournal literature. Effectiveness rates, including cure, marked effect, andsome effect, typicaly do reach into the 85-90% range. However, the curerate is usually only 10-30% of that total effectiveness rate. Totaleffectiveness rates which include basically any kind of improvement in the90% range are not, in my experience, at all unreasonable or unusual.>>>>Your are right I was exaggerating a little to make a point. Although the marked effect numbers are often very high and poorly defined so that it is a bit difficult to assess. Again I must say that I have to speak from what I have seen personally, although obviously was a very limited view. My only point is, even somewhat overstated for purpose of discussion, is that we need to look at all information with great skepticism. To do otherwise is dangerous. And by the way Bob I am very happy to have you participate in this discussion I think this is the most important issue for us here in the west.

Alon