ayurveda discussion

[Guest guest]

dear dr muzumdar

 

ok, i reread my second last post and i must admit that my pitta was

bubbling up a little too much so if offended please accept my humble

apologies

 

please understand i don't deny the importance of sanskrit (i am

student myself), but i do not accept it as the only true language,

nor that india is the only true inspiration for spirituality as many

adherents would claim; by extension, i also have trouble that

ayurveda can ONLY be known through sanskrit, esp. when i have

provided an example in samuel thomson that ayurvedic principles are

found in almost every system of traditional medicine, but that

culture and semantics makes them seem unique or different

 

if i apply the rational principles of ayurveda, i have to admit that

i need to come up with an understanding of what ayurveda is where i

live, not an import of it

 

the principles of ayurveda are timeless, as are the words of Charaka,

but the specific recipes and treatments are secondary and can all

change depending on necessity

 

this has been the heart of my argument, not that ayurveda is wrong -

far from it!!

 

i will state again, that while learning ayurveda in india will serve

one very well, it won't necessarily provide one with the actual

_tools_ to apply ayurvedic principles outside of the Indian subcontinent

 

i don;t have Charaka in front of me, but reviewing the dietary

treatment for prameha given by Vagbhata very few of these foods are

available in my area, except at specialty stores where the quality is

poor relative to the cost

 

further, many of the articles recommend by Vagbhata are exactly the

kind of things that promote diabetes, including saktu (rice flakes),

honey and sugarcane (all of which have a high GI)- and this is what i

mean when i say that the traditional diet is potentially

diabetogenic, esp. in certain high risk populations

 

in my city, someone has written a book called the 100 mile diet

(http://100milediet.org), which has become very popular and is

typical of the emerging mindset here

this is exactly what is needed to heal the planet, and our bodies,

and the current incarnation of ayurveda in the west very much runs

counter to this

 

from a practice standpoint, ayurveda needs to reincorporate this way

of thinking

that is all i am saying - i hope you understand

 

for interests sake, i am attaching a link monograph on one of our

most important local herbs, called Devil's Club (Oplopanax horridus)

from my investigation, it has a katu, tikta and madhura rasa, a

madhura vipak, an ushna virya, vatakaphahara

it can be used for diabetes, and also has application in arthritis

and tuberculosis, and is good for spiritual protection

 

it grows in primeval forest under the canopies of ancient cedars

hundreds of years old

 

http://www.herbalgram.org/youngliving/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2697

 

best...

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

Dear

I have no interest whatsoever in forcing my opinions on others and putting words

in others mouth. I am at peace with myself already since long time back.

If you are not able to grasp the basic understandings of Ayurveda, it's

definitely your lookout.

 

Re : Spirituality in Ayurveda

Spirituality is more concerned for enriching one's life and not the issue for

treating the diseased. Because Ayurveda deals with all the life processes it

also discusses spirituality.It does ask to apply this aspect everywhere. You

need to take the Ayurvedic references with proper context and not in gross

manner. I have my basic concepts very firmly rooted and I don't need to think on

this issue.

 

Re : Your original argument of Madhumeha

In Madhumeha, it is not only the blood but many other body constituents that get

aggravated, which I have enlisted in my earlier mails. And your theory that the

disease plays around the polarity of kapha and vata; and that the need to

balance the vata against the sweetness of kapha ia basically flawed. If you are

taught this, then it is wrong. Madhumeha is the result of vitiation of all the

three doshas and the treatment is aimed at the total etio-pathogenesis and not

only vata. It would be better you read thro' all my previous mails to get a

clear idea. What you are thinking is not the correct way. In spite of my giving

so many references from original texts, you are not able to grasp proper

understanding from them. Even a student of Ayurveda would have understood the

whole Madhumeha treatise from my explanations. The limitations are obviously

from your side in comprehending the issue.

All the meat and Brahmanical red rice diet is your perception. There is nothing

Brahmanical in diet in Ayurveda. Choose the items which are ' Santarpan ' and

not ' Bruhan ' is the Ayurvedic advise in Madhumeha, whether of plant or animal

source. I think you can understand that as you said you apply dravya-guna when

you select the meats for diet.

 

And if this discussion is just going to be a debate without a proper Ayurvedic

follow thro' on your side, I feel it correct to restrain myself from placing the

proper views of Ayurveda. I have no inclination neither the time to do strawman

arguments. If you need to learn Ayurveda to it's core, you are welcome to learn

from my side.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

M.D.Ayurvedic Medicine (MUMBAI-INDIA)

< dahpc >

__________

> my original argument was that in madumeha the blood is

both sweet and astringent, and that from these components it is

inferred that the disease plays itself out around the polarity of

vata and kapha

 

the need here is to balance the aggravated component of vata against

the simultaneous sweetness (kapha) of the blood

 

i said that this ayurvedic rationale facilitates an understanding of

dietary options for diabetes that extends traditional indian dietary

therapy, and supports a low carb approach, and that for non-

vegetarians lean proteins will help to reduce vata, but at the same

time won't aggravate kapha and kleda

 

my understanding of this has nothing to do with atkins or anything

else, but is based on the dravyguna of these lean animal proteins,

which are both sweet and and a little astringent in nature; some are

also pungent which can help reduce kleda, but others that are more

fatty may worsen kapha (such as marsh animals including duck, goose,

pheasant etc), although some fatty meats like goat actually reduce

kapha and balance vata

[Guest guest]

Dear

 

Re : Importance of understanding Sanskrit vis-a-vis Ayurveda

I wii give you the example of word ' GURU '. Guru means heavy by weight

physically, it also means difficult to assimilate and digest, and it also means

promoting / gaining weight. It also means superior. It also means a teacher /

guide. Now, which meaning are you going to apply if you dont know the correct

context. That is the reason why you should know Sanskrit and not rely on the

linguistic versions. There are many such catch-22 instances in Ayurveda where,

if you do not interpret correctly, can cause lots of confusion in the mind.

 

Re : Ayurveda and natural inspirations & applications outside India.

Natural ispirations need codifying and disciplining. This is called '

Sutri-kaan' or making of Sutras for proper understanding. Ayurveda gives you

options to be applied in the area where you live. For that, you need to

understand the concept of ' Desha ' and ' Rutu ' properly. Again the need for

Sanskrit understanding. Whenever you come to India, make it a point to meet me.

I will guide you how to apply Ayurveda in Canada.

 

Re : Vagbhata references and confusion.

Charaka is the basic scripture from which Vagbhata has culled the references. It

is like a ready-reckoner or bed-side diagnostic reference book. It does not

discuss the details and finer aspects. A ready-reckoner is meant for those who

already know the main stuff, but just need some reminder key-notes. Hence

knowing Charaka is necessary before utilising Vagbhata. How can you make

short-cuts without knowing the total road map by heart.

Vagbhata is not wrong in prescribing sugarcane juice and other sweet food-items

in Prameha. NOTE that the key-word here is PRAMEHA and not MADHUMEHA. Prameha is

a set of urinary disorders and not essentially related to diabetes. Not each

type of Prameha has sugar in urine and blood. Saktu, honey and sugarcane juice

have to be used in types of Prameha where the attributes are opposite to the

presenting type. By the way, it is a known fact that in diabetic keto-acidisis,

you need to give intravenous dextrose along with other relevant medicines, even

if the blood sugar levels are high. This is done to prevent the patient from

going into coma. But this aspect is only of temporary value. So again the

context is mis-construed for lack of Sanskrit understanding, as to the corrct

and prudent use of above mentioned ( high GI ) stuff.

 

I can understand the plight caused by different contradictory opinions. But if

the basics are fool-proof then anybody can experience the universal

applicability of Ayurveda. And if you can set your hands on Charak, do learn it

like Bible. It will give you a ecstatic vision never experienced before.

I will definitely go thro' the links you have provided as soon as possible.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

 

-

Todd Caldecott

ayurveda

Thursday, September 27, 2007 1:13 PM

<ayurveda> ayurveda discussion

 

 

dear dr muzumdar

 

ok, i reread my second last post and i must admit that my pitta was

bubbling up a little too much so if offended please accept my humble

apologies

 

please understand i don't deny the importance of sanskrit (i am

student myself), but i do not accept it as the only true language,

nor that india is the only true inspiration for spirituality as many

adherents would claim; by extension, i also have trouble that

ayurveda can ONLY be known through sanskrit, esp. when i have

provided an example in samuel thomson that ayurvedic principles are

found in almost every system of traditional medicine, but that

culture and semantics makes them seem unique or different

 

if i apply the rational principles of ayurveda, i have to admit that

i need to come up with an understanding of what ayurveda is where i

live, not an import of it

 

the principles of ayurveda are timeless, as are the words of Charaka,

but the specific recipes and treatments are secondary and can all

change depending on necessity

 

this has been the heart of my argument, not that ayurveda is wrong -

far from it!!

 

i will state again, that while learning ayurveda in india will serve

one very well, it won't necessarily provide one with the actual

_tools_ to apply ayurvedic principles outside of the Indian subcontinent

 

i don;t have Charaka in front of me, but reviewing the dietary

treatment for prameha given by Vagbhata very few of these foods are

available in my area, except at specialty stores where the quality is

poor relative to the cost

 

further, many of the articles recommend by Vagbhata are exactly the

kind of things that promote diabetes, including saktu (rice flakes),

honey and sugarcane (all of which have a high GI)- and this is what i

mean when i say that the traditional diet is potentially

diabetogenic, esp. in certain high risk populations

 

in my city, someone has written a book called the 100 mile diet

(http://100milediet.org), which has become very popular and is

typical of the emerging mindset here

this is exactly what is needed to heal the planet, and our bodies,

and the current incarnation of ayurveda in the west very much runs

counter to this

 

from a practice standpoint, ayurveda needs to reincorporate this way

of thinking

that is all i am saying - i hope you understand

 

for interests sake, i am attaching a link monograph on one of our

most important local herbs, called Devil's Club (Oplopanax horridus)

from my investigation, it has a katu, tikta and madhura rasa, a

madhura vipak, an ushna virya, vatakaphahara

it can be used for diabetes, and also has application in arthritis

and tuberculosis, and is good for spiritual protection

 

it grows in primeval forest under the canopies of ancient cedars

hundreds of years old

 

http://www.herbalgram.org/youngliving/herbalgram/articleview.asp?a=2697

 

best...

 

Todd Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Oh - I always thought i heard that GURU meant Light/dark - or the other way

around - don't remember which now

 

Jane

 

-

" muzumdar " <dahpc

>

> Re : Importance of understanding Sanskrit vis-a-vis Ayurveda

> I wii give you the example of word ' GURU '.

[Guest guest]

Guru means heavy.

Jupiter is called Guru in astrology because it is the heaviest planet in the

solar system.

The magnetic force of Jupiter keeps many asteroids etc away from earth and

protects the earth.

[Guest guest]

Jane

 

Gu-ru means someone or something that takes one from darkness to

light. It is " naad yoga " or based on the sound current. Say Gu and

the English word that comes to mind is " goo " , which may be a black

tar. When you say it, it sounds like you are " stuck " . Say Ru and

there is a lilt, especially compared to the Gu sound. The mind goes

upward when saying or hearing Ru.

 

GB

____________

i heard that GURU meant Light/dark - or the other way around - don't remember

which now

[Guest guest]

> Re: ayurveda discussion

>

> Posted by: " muzumdar " dahpc dbm2110

>

> Mon Oct 1, 2007 7:17 pm (PST)

>

> Dear

>

> Re : Importance of understanding Sanskrit vis-a-vis Ayurveda

> I wii give you the example of word ' GURU '. Guru means heavy by

> weight physically, it also means difficult to assimilate and

> digest, and it also means promoting / gaining weight. It also means

> superior. It also means a teacher / guide. Now, which meaning are

> you going to apply if you dont know the correct context. That is

> the reason why you should know Sanskrit and not rely on the

> linguistic versions. There are many such catch-22 instances in

> Ayurveda where, if you do not interpret correctly, can cause lots

> of confusion in the mind.

 

dear dr. mzumdar

 

please stop making assumptions about what i know and don't know

i am very aware that ayurvedic terms and sanskrit words have multi-

layered meanings, as do many languages

 

in fact, i assume it is the case with most terms and with my limited

resources, investigate it to the fullest extent i can

guru is an elementary example, but for other terms the etymology

isn't always so clear

 

> I described the cause for origin of Ayurveda which is unrefuted and

> undisputed. Did you see the reference I quoted or are you just

> raising questions?

> And if your teachers of Ayurveda are themselves confused and

> bewildered in applying Ayurveda in foreign context as you say, I

> feel surprised how can they teach you proper Ayurveda? And in the

> sense of confusion, if they are implimenting the tropical diets or

> the diets they are well-versed with, then it is the limitation of

> their understanding of Ayurveda.

 

it is very common dr. muzumdar

too common if you ask me

 

the thing is, if you came to canada you wouldn't necessarily know how

to implement ayurveda here, if you couldn't rely upon what you know

and is familiar to you

 

essentially, you would have to start over, observing the very

different nature of the climate, how the seasons are different, how

the people are different, how the native diet is different, how the

herbs are different - you might even have to humble yourself by

asking non-ayurvedic people for help understanding such things

 

in other words you would have to undertake a reassessment of the

practical utility of ayurveda - not the philosophy or the principles,

but the actual practices

 

otherwise you would just be practicing pretty much the way you do

now, using imported indian foods and health products - which is what

most ayurvedic physicians emigrating to the west end up doing and

promote, along with their religious views on diet

 

 

> And you definitely should not consider their views of Ayurveda as

> totalist Ayurveda. I think this version of Ayurveda is creating

> more confusions in your mind and raising more queries. We do not

> work in this way in India outside Kerala.

 

there is no confusion in my mind with regard to this issue - you may

not agree but you cannot accuse me of being confused!

all this statement does is validate my opinion that your opinion

isn't the only opinion to have

 

>

> Re : Your original argument of Madhumeha

> In Madhumeha, it is not only the blood but many other body

> constituents that get aggravated, which I have enlisted in my

> earlier mails. And your theory that the disease plays around the

> polarity of kapha and vata; and that the need to balance the vata

> against the sweetness of kapha ia basically flawed.

 

is it? well, this is a teaching that i have rec'd from a lineage of

authentic vaidyas, which unlike yourself, were trained in the

traditional guru-shishya method

 

there are two basic facts:

 

1. prameha as a general category of disease revolves around kapha

2. madhumeha specifically is a vata disorder

 

my feeling is that you are finding fault without sufficient examination

at worst you might say i'm explaining it in a unique way

 

incidentally, you completely ignored my question/comment about Dr. AV

Kumar's argument that the entire spectrum of prameha can be equated

with diabetes mellitus, and that to consider only madhumeha as

diabetes is wrong - more heterogenous opinion, or do you agree?

 

fyi, i know very well that pitta plays a role in prameha, which

becomes vitiated as a response to the accumulation of kapha, and if

we consider madhumeha (not dhatu kashaya but avrita madhumeha) as an

endstage condition, then there can be no confusion that pitta plays a

role in its pathogenesis

 

however, i am selecting the basic dichotomy of madhumeha to explain a

dietary approach to reduce kleda without aggravating vata

 

this is what i learned and informs my use of diet, which in the most

recent case i presented, explains its success - can you explain this

success in ayurvedic terms?

 

it doesn't mean that pitta reducing therapy might not also be needed,

but we are talking about dietary therapies, not the entire spectrum

of treatment

 

 

> If you are taught this, then it is wrong. Madhumeha is the result

> of vitiation of all the three doshas and the treatment is aimed at

> the total etio-pathogenesis and not only vata. It would be better

> you read thro' all my previous mails to get a clear idea. What you

> are thinking is not the correct way. In spite of my giving so many

> references from original texts, you are not able to grasp proper

> understanding from them. Even a student of Ayurveda would have

> understood the whole Madhumeha treatise from my explanations. The

> limitations are obviously from your side in comprehending the issue.

 

too much time here has been spent going round in circles

 

again, i ask you to provide your interpretation of diabetes /

madhumeha so we can all see - don't just cite a shloka in Charaka and

then not actually explain it in your own words

 

if not for my benefit, then do it for the entire list so they might

learn

 

so far you haven't done so, even though i have made repeated requests

 

best...

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

the meaning of " guru " was covered in a post before. what i want to add is the

connection to gravity force, the centripete attraction that is cristalizing a

structure arround a center.

[Guest guest]

That's overly simlistic Mandakiniven.

 

Its true that Jupiter is heaviest. Its also true that it contributes

to some of the Gravitational forces in our solar system. But the

greatest power in our solar system still belongs to The Sun. And that

is overshadowed by that of the larger Suns in the Milky way galaxy,

and they are counteracted by the blackholes of the Milky way, and by

similar forces in other galaxies.

 

Where galaxies get absorbed in Blackholes, a small earth cannot be

protected by a " Jupiter " .

 

_________________________

The magnetic force of Jupiter keeps many asteroids etc away from

earth and protects the earth.

[Guest guest]

Dear Jane,

 

Sai Ram. Guru has several meanings including teacher, preceptor,

acharya etc., and all of them come from the root 'disspeller of

darkness " illuminator. Guru has also the meaning of heavy, big etc.

as mentioned by another friend here.

 

The one who dispels the darkness of ignorance by teaching the right

things is Guru. Sai Ram.

 

Swamy

[Guest guest]

Dear

I feel that I have answered all of the queries about diabetes in most of my

previous mails. In spite of the best of the explanations, you seem to be very

much comfortable with your version of Ayurveda. If you are not interested in

basic Ayurvedic references and shlokas, I don't feel this issue can be continued

further. It would have been better if you had cross-referred my mails with your

co-professional vaidyas or your teachers and gurus before passing comments.

Already too much time has be spent on this topic.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

_______________

in other words you would have to undertake a reassessment of the

practical utility of ayurveda - not the philosophy or the principles,

but the actual practices

 

otherwise you would just be practicing pretty much the way you do

now, using imported indian foods and health products - which is what

most ayurvedic physicians emigrating to the west end up doing and

promote, along with their religious views on diet

there is no confusion in my mind with regard to this issue - you may

not agree but you cannot accuse me of being confused!

all this statement does is validate my opinion that your opinion

isn't the only opinion to have

is it? well, this is a teaching that i have rec'd from a lineage of

authentic vaidyas, which unlike yourself, were trained in the

traditional guru-shishya method

[Guest guest]

Dear

Whatever I have discussed about Ayurveda is not my opinion, even if you feel it

so. It is the basic structure of Ayurveda, whether you like it or not. It is the

fact and that will persist.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar.