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In a message dated 6/1/00 10:52:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

yulong writes:

 

<< " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the

freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without

destroying both. "

Thomas Jefferson

>>

Ken,

If I didn't know better, I would think there were two different Kens

with the name yulong. Isn't that funny? Did you accidently

attach this quote? I don't see the connection between this quote and you

feelings on pulling licenses from broad minded acupuncturists. Maybe you can

help me here.

Blessings,

Joan

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In a message dated 6/1/00 10:50:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,

zrosenberg writes:

 

<<

You can see that this can take a large amount of one's time. Why should

this ruffle so many peoples feathers? Aren't American students of Chinese

medicine dedicated to excellance? Even though many of my colleagues and

myself have been practicing close to twenty years, we are studying harder

than ever.. . .like any physician in any school of medicine. Why does this

bother you?

 

>>

It seems to me that most of the people in this group spend most of their day

AND night thinking and writing about ! I know I do!

 

Julie

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Luke,

 

>I wonder, and I am unfortunately uninformed, as to life

> expectancy in China? Thanks to this wonder-ful system, do people in China

> live longer, and do they experience a better quality of life?]

 

There are a number of factors that come to bear on these questions.

You know, traditional Chinese medicine and specifically acupuncture

fell into disrepute when China began to enter the modern era. By

the 1920s, the new regime in China virtually outlawed the practice of

and education in Chinese medicine. The widespread use of Chinese

herbs no doubt continued despite such official policies. But obviously

governmental dicta and law forbidding Chinese medicine did not

help the formation of modern social structures to support its

growth and development.

 

It was the Communist government that recognized the potential

of China's native medical traditions. Mao mobilized traditional

healers to care for the troops when they were in Ya An living

in caves. After the founding of the PRC, it was again Mao

and Zhou En Lai that ordered the revivification of Chinese

medicine in mainland China. Point being that Chinese medicine

in modern China is still regaining a foothold some fifty years

after reemerging form a fairly dark period of its history.

 

Public health statistics, like statistics relating to all aspects of life,

are unreliable in China today. The structures that give rise to

such statistics are still too young and unstable to produce reliable

results. Remember that 900,000,000 of China's 1.3 billion are

peasants, living in the countryside with little to no medical care.

Infant mortality rates in various parts of China vary greatly and

are typically much higher than in highly developed parts of the

world.

 

In the cities, I'd say that some 10% - 15% of the population

relies on traditional medicine. Frankly, I have never seen

any statistical representation that could be used to answer

the question you raised directly.

 

Ken

 

" Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the

freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without

destroying both. "

Thomas Jefferson

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In a message dated 6/1/00 1:47:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

yulong writes:

 

<< I don't see the practice of medicine as a protected right on the same

level as freedom of speech.

 

......Hello Ken,

Thomas Jefferson's quote stated to freedom of thought: " Our most

fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought.... " Freedom of

speech is protected, and I would hope that freedom of thought will NEVER end,

protected or otherwise. Without freedom of thought, TCM would not be

fighting for it's fair recognition outside of China, etc. It took a free

thinker to be able to open up to the possibilities that there had to be

something else that was greater than what we already had. In fact, I would

go as far as to say that that is OM single greatest obstacle; there are not

enough free thinkers out in the populations. Not enough open minds willing

to try something other than Western medicine. I somehow feel that someone or

some other organization has arrived before us and the blinders already in

place. It is the removal of the blinders that needs to take place now. Not

the reverse.

 

My remark pertained not to broad minded

acupuncturists but to incompetent acupuncturists. I continue to hold

that those who do not know what they are doing really ought not to

be licensed by the state to do it.

 

.......I do believe that your prior posts stated that pure OM alone was always

enough to satisy the demands of our clients, if studied properly. That the

addition of any other modality, whether trained in it or not, was destroying

the pure image of OM/TCM. Do you deny this summary?

 

And I continue to assert that were

I to be the issuer of a certificate to anyone who later demonstrated

incompetence in the subject that I had certified them to be competent

that I would take effective steps to remedy the situation, including

suspension or cancellation of the certificate as a necessary step. >>

 

.......Are you saying that you would certify a student who might later

demonstrate incompetence?

Blessings,

Joan

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In a message dated 6/1/00 1:50:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

zrosenberg writes:

 

<< Why does this bother you? >>

Hello Zev,

Sorry, this is an assumption on your part.

Blessings,

Joan

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Ken, " Mao mobilized traditional healers to care for the troops when they

were in Ya An living

in caves. After the founding of the PRC, it was again Mao and Zhou En Lai

that ordered the revivification of Chinese medicine in mainland China " For

the very simply reason is that Western Drugs were not available to the

communist. Drugs and medical supplies were available to Chang Chai Sheck

(Spelling?). At the same time another argument was made that Gandhi was a

pacifist because he did not have the tanks, guns and planes that his

opponents had.

Evolution arises out of necessity (the mother of invention).

In the US the use of homeopathy, muscle testing, western drugs and terms,

etc, etc is on the rise within American TCM because of the lack of a

foundation. (my obvious personal opinion). The " intent " may not be to go

there but it appears that is where we are headed.

 

This is a valuable resource not only to share ideas but

also to create a focus

 

Sorry to be political, sour grapes about California's " educational " process

I had to endure.

 

Ed Kasper L.Ac., Santa Cruz, California

 

 

Cosmic Dragon LLC [yulong]

Thursday, June 01, 2000 7:53 AM

 

Re:

 

 

Luke,

 

>I wonder, and I am unfortunately uninformed, as to life

> expectancy in China? Thanks to this wonder-ful system, do people in China

> live longer, and do they experience a better quality of life?]

 

There are a number of factors that come to bear on these questions.

You know, traditional Chinese medicine and specifically acupuncture

fell into disrepute when China began to enter the modern era. By

the 1920s, the new regime in China virtually outlawed the practice of

and education in Chinese medicine. The widespread use of Chinese

herbs no doubt continued despite such official policies. But obviously

governmental dicta and law forbidding Chinese medicine did not

help the formation of modern social structures to support its

growth and development.

 

It was the Communist government that recognized the potential

of China's native medical traditions. . Point being that Chinese medicine

in modern China is still regaining a foothold some fifty years

after reemerging form a fairly dark period of its history.

 

Public health statistics, like statistics relating to all aspects of life,

are unreliable in China today. The structures that give rise to

such statistics are still too young and unstable to produce reliable

results. Remember that 900,000,000 of China's 1.3 billion are

peasants, living in the countryside with little to no medical care.

Infant mortality rates in various parts of China vary greatly and

are typically much higher than in highly developed parts of the

world.

 

In the cities, I'd say that some 10% - 15% of the population

relies on traditional medicine. Frankly, I have never seen

any statistical representation that could be used to answer

the question you raised directly.

 

Ken

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Joan,

 

> << " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and

the

> freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without

> destroying both. "

> Thomas Jefferson

> >>

> Ken,

> If I didn't know better, I would think there were two different Kens

> with the name yulong. Isn't that funny?

 

Tee hee.

 

> Did you accidently

> attach this quote?

 

Nope. I attached it so that people who wish to place limitations on

the communications of others have a benchmark against which to

evaulate their own sentiments. Our devotion to freedom of expression

begins and ends with our responses to the views of others that clash

with our own.

 

> I don't see the connection between this quote and you

> feelings on pulling licenses from broad minded acupuncturists.

 

I don't see the practice of medicine as a protected right on the same

level as freedom of speech. My remark pertained not to broad minded

acupuncturists but to incompetent acupuncturists. I continue to hold

that those who do not know what they are doing really ought not to

be licensed by the state to do it. And I continue to assert that were

I to be the issuer of a certificate to anyone who later demonstrated

incompetence in the subject that I had certified them to be competent

that I would take effective steps to remedy the situation, including

suspension or cancellation of the certificate as a necessary step.

 

> Maybe you can

> help me here.

 

Does that help?

 

Ken

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Spending a great deal of time to master a subject does not mean that one

is closed-minded, or open to other subjects. It simply means that one

prioritizes one's time.

 

Joan, here is another quotation for you:

 

" Whoever wants to be a physician must first be conversant with Su Wen, Jia

Yi Jing, Huang Di Zhen Jin, the twelve channels, the three places and nine

depths (for taking the pulse), the five zang and six fu, the exterior and

the interior, the points along the channels, medicinals, and all other

well-known books of doctors and formulas such as Zhang Zhong Jing, Wang Shu

He, Ruan He Nan. . . . .

Without such knowledge they will be like a blind person in the dark; they

will fall down easily. " ( Rose, Ken and Yu Huan, Zhang, " Who Can Ride the

Dragon " ?)

 

You can see that this can take a large amount of one's time. Why should

this ruffle so many peoples feathers? Aren't American students of Chinese

medicine dedicated to excellance? Even though many of my colleagues and

myself have been practicing close to twenty years, we are studying harder

than ever.. . .like any physician in any school of medicine. Why does this

bother you?

 

 

 

 

 

>In a message dated 6/1/00 10:52:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

>yulong writes:

>

><< " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the

> freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without

> destroying both. "

> Thomas Jefferson

> >>

>Ken,

> If I didn't know better, I would think there were two different Kens

>with the name yulong. Isn't that funny? Did you accidently

>attach this quote? I don't see the connection between this quote and you

>feelings on pulling licenses from broad minded acupuncturists. Maybe you can

>help me here.

>Blessings,

>Joan

>

>------

>Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

>http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959879329/

>------

>

>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

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Z'ev

 

Just a point of clarification.

The quote you cite is from our book, but the original words

are not our. They are a translation of part of the preface to

Qian Jin Fang by Sun Si Miao. He called it " Prerequisites

to the Study of Medicine. "

 

Let's make a note of that. He isn't even talking here

about the scope of knowledge of a doctor. He is

talking about " prerequisites " to the pursuit of this

knowledge.

 

Ken

" Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the

freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without

destroying both. "

Thomas Jefferson

 

-

<zrosenberg

 

Thursday, June 01, 2000 10:51 AM

Re: Just a thought

 

 

> Spending a great deal of time to master a subject does not mean that one

> is closed-minded, or open to other subjects. It simply means that one

> prioritizes one's time.

>

> Joan, here is another quotation for you:

>

> " Whoever wants to be a physician must first be conversant with Su Wen, Jia

> Yi Jing, Huang Di Zhen Jin, the twelve channels, the three places and nine

> depths (for taking the pulse), the five zang and six fu, the exterior and

> the interior, the points along the channels, medicinals, and all other

> well-known books of doctors and formulas such as Zhang Zhong Jing, Wang

Shu

> He, Ruan He Nan. . . . .

> Without such knowledge they will be like a blind person in the dark; they

> will fall down easily. " ( Rose, Ken and Yu Huan, Zhang, " Who Can Ride the

> Dragon " ?)

>

> You can see that this can take a large amount of one's time. Why should

> this ruffle so many peoples feathers? Aren't American students of Chinese

> medicine dedicated to excellance? Even though many of my colleagues and

> myself have been practicing close to twenty years, we are studying harder

> than ever.. . .like any physician in any school of medicine. Why does

this

> bother you?

>

>

>

>

>

> >In a message dated 6/1/00 10:52:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,

> >yulong writes:

> >

> ><< " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and

the

> > freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way

without

> > destroying both. "

> > Thomas Jefferson

> > >>

> >Ken,

> > If I didn't know better, I would think there were two different Kens

> >with the name yulong. Isn't that funny? Did you

accidently

> >attach this quote? I don't see the connection between this quote and you

> >feelings on pulling licenses from broad minded acupuncturists. Maybe you

can

> >help me here.

> >Blessings,

> >Joan

> >

> >------

> >Was the salesman clueless? Productopia has the answers.

> >http://click./1/4633/9/_/542111/_/959879329/

> >------

> >

> >Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

>

>

>

> ------

> Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws.

> http://click./1/4634/9/_/542111/_/959881772/

> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

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You are right, Ken.

Thanks for the clarification for the list, and for myself.

 

 

 

 

>Z'ev

>

>Just a point of clarification.

>The quote you cite is from our book, but the original words

>are not our. They are a translation of part of the preface to

>Qian Jin Fang by Sun Si Miao. He called it " Prerequisites

>to the Study of Medicine. "

>

>Let's make a note of that. He isn't even talking here

>about the scope of knowledge of a doctor. He is

>talking about " prerequisites " to the pursuit of this

>knowledge.

>

>Ken

> " Our most fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought and the

>freedom of expression; and you cannot limit either one in any way without

>destroying both. "

>Thomas Jefferson

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Since I think Joan is a homeopath,

I wanted to state my point of view on alternative treatments outside of

Chinese medicine.

At the present time, homeopathy is not an independant health

profession, it is practiced by chiropractors, nurses, acupuncturists,

naturopaths, doctors and osteopaths. In my opinion, there SHOULD be a

separate health care professional, doctor of homeopathy, to reflect the

reality that this a complete healing system and medicine.

If an acupuncturist is fully trained in homeopathy, and nationally

certified by the relevant organizations, he should have the LEGAL right to

practice this system. This is the nature of the bill in the California

legislature. Other issues dealing with the practice of homeopathy by our

profession are ethical issues of competancy and compatibility of homeopathy

with Chinese medicine, and presently do not reflect on this issue.

By the same token, we have outgrown the 'licenced acupuncturist'

designation. It is time to move forward towards degrees and licensure for

'doctors of oriental (or Chinese) medicine, and train and practice to the

full degree of our healing system and medicine. Then eclecticism will

naturally decrease, as our effectiveness in practice increases.

 

 

>

>.....Hello Ken,

> Thomas Jefferson's quote stated to freedom of thought: " Our most

>fundamental liberties depend upon the freedom of thought.... " Freedom of

>speech is protected, and I would hope that freedom of thought will NEVER end,

>protected or otherwise. Without freedom of thought, TCM would not be

>fighting for it's fair recognition outside of China, etc. It took a free

>thinker to be able to open up to the possibilities that there had to be

>something else that was greater than what we already had. In fact, I would

>go as far as to say that that is OM single greatest obstacle; there are not

>enough free thinkers out in the populations. Not enough open minds willing

>to try something other than Western medicine. I somehow feel that someone or

>some other organization has arrived before us and the blinders already in

>place. It is the removal of the blinders that needs to take place now. Not

>the reverse.

>

> My remark pertained not to broad minded

> acupuncturists but to incompetent acupuncturists. I continue to hold

> that those who do not know what they are doing really ought not to

> be licensed by the state to do it.

>

>......I do believe that your prior posts stated that pure OM alone was always

>enough to satisy the demands of our clients, if studied properly. That the

>addition of any other modality, whether trained in it or not, was destroying

>the pure image of OM/TCM. Do you deny this summary?

>

> And I continue to assert that were

> I to be the issuer of a certificate to anyone who later demonstrated

> incompetence in the subject that I had certified them to be competent

> that I would take effective steps to remedy the situation, including

> suspension or cancellation of the certificate as a necessary step. >>

>

>......Are you saying that you would certify a student who might later

>demonstrate incompetence?

>Blessings,

>Joan

>

>------

>fnCentral.com lets you manage your finances from anywhere

>at anytime. Put the power of the internet to work - keep track

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>------

>

>Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

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I agree with Luke, here. There are those of us who are purists and those who are eclectic. I don't think it falls so neatly into educator and practitioner categories, though. I believe it's a personality/temperament difference and as such there is no right or wrong way.

 

Yes, there are those who cover their lack of skill in TCM by looking to other modalities. But there are also those who enjoy and thrive on diversity and as long as we have the skills in these other modalities and as long as our patients are getting well, I believe there is room for all of us.

I think the problem comes when practitioners are not sufficiently skilled, patients are not well served and Chinese medicine gets a bad name.

 

I think the public, our patients, are concerned with feeling better and becoming more whole, not in whether or not we are following an ancient tradition. Though I also believe it's important to maintain the integrity of our tradition and to be clear to ourselves and our patients when we are deviating from it.

 

Catherine

 

 

 

 

-

Luke Klincewicz

 

Wednesday, May 31, 2000 11:34 PM

Just a thought

I reiterate that there exists a dichotomy of purist and eclectic, and itseems that most educators fall into the category of purist, and that mostpractitioners fall into the eclectic category.

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In a message dated 6/1/00 3:03:57 PM, jplane1 writes:

 

<< ......I do believe that your prior posts stated that pure OM alone was

always

enough to satisy the demands of our clients, if studied properly. That the

addition of any other modality, whether trained in it or not, was destroying

the pure image of OM/TCM. Do you deny this summary? >>

 

Substitute allopathy for OM and you have another groups view.

Substitute Chiropractic fo OM and you have straight choropractors view.

The problem is not the view, but the fractionalization that it breeds.

 

I see there are just as many incompetent acu's cooming out of schools using

only Chinese medicine and still not getting it as those who may be trying

other things to build their lost edge, if not more, but I dont' see what this

has to do with practitioners using other modalities if they choose, and using

them from a OM perspective, even homeopathy. I don't understand how one

cannot see how anything in mdeicine can't be seen from an OM perspective. The

idea is to develop an idea of what is best to be used when for the patients

betterment, and then to be able to observe progress.

David Molony

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David,

 

Thanks for posting this. It has helped me understand some of the

dynamics of this whole discussion. I'll spell this understanding out

so that others can comment on it, as I suspect that it can still improve.

 

Your comments are in reply to a so-called summary of statements

attributed to me. The first thing I notice is that Joan's summary is

an altered version of what I actually said flavored with a significant

emotional ingredient. If I'm not mistaken, this was the same post in which

she

compared me to Hitler, suggested that my methodology was communistic and

suggested

that I have multiple personalities. It's pretty clear that I'd said

something that upset her, and this I suppose to have been contributory to

her

alteration of my original statement. When we're disturbed by anger and other

emotions

our minds do that. I find it happens to us under the best of conditions.

 

This is not to say that I believe or suggest that we can function in such a

forum without our emotions. As Tony Damasio writes in both Descartes Error

and

The Feeling of What Happens, our emotions are inseparably woven into our

entire pattern of mentation.

 

But I think it's worth commenting on the kinds of torsion that develop in

the communication medium as a result of this emotional input. They exert

a force on our thoughts and our words that, as we witnessed above,

can distort understanding and affect the outcome of the whole process.

 

My original remarks were comments about the condition that I see

in which students in acupuncture schools that are primarily engaged in

preparing them to pass licensing examinations all too frequently emerge

from the educational/certification process with nominal skills in applying

Chinese medical theories and therapeutics in the resolution of patients'

ills. My original remarks and my subsequent clarifications of those remarks,

which were posted well before the post by Joan to which you are responding,

went on to suggest that it was this vacuum left by their training that acted

to attract other modalities from beyond the traditional boundaries of

medical thinking and practice in China.

 

My original remarks were not at all meant to say that Chinese medicine

ought not be combined with other modalities. I am a strong proponent

of integrative medicine. I simply believe that it ought to be conducted by

individuals with exhaustive knowledge of both or all and any discipline that

they seek to integrate with any other. Nor do I believe that this is an

unreasonable expectation on the part of the public at large. Those who

purvey

to the public that they are practitioners of Chinese medicine who

fit the description I have offered above are travelling and setting

the profession along a very perilous path.

 

That was the import of my original remarks.

 

As you can see, these statements in no way suggest that there

aren't well trained and experienced people engaged in the exploration

and development of methods to integrate all manner of healing

modalities. I am familiar with several such initiatives. I simply wasn't

talking about this at all. I was talking about the training of practitioners

of Chinese medicine in the US and pointing out what I believe to be

a significant problem that ought to be confronted by those involved.

 

To a great extent the discussion that followed tended to address this

latter issue, i.e. the overall advisability of integrating other modalities

with Chinese medicine. As I said just now, I'm all in favor of proper

research and clinical pracitce of such integrative approaches as long

as they are carried out by qualified people.

 

So I've been sort of scratching my head trying to figure out how this

all came about. That's where your post helped me. It provided me

the right juxtaposition of points of view that permitted me to see

this emotional influence.

 

Let me make my own emotions known to those who might

want to understand how they influence my thinking, at least

from my perspective.

 

I'm angry about the situation that I describe above. I feel that

it threatens the survival of all who love Chinese medicine

and strive to bring it to the world. And I'm fearful of the effects

that may well occur if these kinds of problems are not confronted

and dealt with effectively.

 

If the power elite of health care wanted to subsume this corner

of the $40 billion-plus " alternative medicine " market, they could

come up with no more effective strategy than to undermine the

education of those who practice it so that they could not deliver

what they advertise.

 

I am not suggesting that any such strategy exists, merely pointing

out that inadequate education can be politically devastating. You

see, I agree with you that we must get political. But once we get

political we had better be effective. And if our ranks include

large numbers who can be demonstrated to lack fundamental

skills in their own discipline, it can only serve to undermine

effectiveness.

 

 

 

-

<acuman1

 

Saturday, June 03, 2000 11:46 PM

Re: Just a thought

 

 

>

> In a message dated 6/1/00 3:03:57 PM, jplane1 writes:

>

> << ......I do believe that your prior posts stated that pure OM alone was

> always

> enough to satisy the demands of our clients, if studied properly. That

the

> addition of any other modality, whether trained in it or not, was

destroying

> the pure image of OM/TCM. Do you deny this summary? >>

>

> Substitute allopathy for OM and you have another groups view.

> Substitute Chiropractic fo OM and you have straight choropractors view.

> The problem is not the view, but the fractionalization that it breeds.

>

> I see there are just as many incompetent acu's cooming out of schools

using

> only Chinese medicine and still not getting it as those who may be trying

> other things to build their lost edge, if not more, but I dont' see what

this

> has to do with practitioners using other modalities if they choose, and

using

> them from a OM perspective, even homeopathy. I don't understand how one

> cannot see how anything in mdeicine can't be seen from an OM perspective.

The

> idea is to develop an idea of what is best to be used when for the

patients

> betterment, and then to be able to observe progress.

> David Molony

>

> ------

> Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving

> more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long

Distance

> rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls!

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> ------

>

> Chronic Diseases Heal - Chinese Herbs Can Help

>

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  • 4 years later...
Guest guest

What do you mean bt TN? Also did you make the tea youself? what is

the recipe?

Gina

 

herbal remedies , " Caroline "

<ladyguinevere@e...> wrote:

> A few weeks ago I was talking about really enjoying my cup of

coffee in the morning and not really wanting to give it up. Well,

since I started taking my TN and drinking the MOST delicious Mulein

and Licorice root tea I have not so much as thought of a cup of

coffee until this morning. I did not have one though, because after

I had my morning TN I didn't feel like it anymore. Isn't that

strange?? I am delighted...as that was my morning thing but now...it

is TN instead. MUCH better option! lol

>

> Caroline

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I'm a total coffee addict as well! I don't drink much, just a couple

cups in the morning (literally, like 12-16oz), but if I DON'T drink

it, I get this skullbuster of a headache.

 

What is TN, and where do I get some of that Licorice Root Tea??

 

Ella

 

herbal remedies , " Caroline "

<ladyguinevere@e...> wrote:

> A few weeks ago I was talking about really enjoying my cup of

coffee in the morning and not really wanting to give it up. Well,

since I started taking my TN and drinking the MOST delicious Mulein

and Licorice root tea I have not so much as thought of a cup of

coffee until this morning. I did not have one though, because after

I had my morning TN I didn't feel like it anymore. Isn't that

strange?? I am delighted...as that was my morning thing but now...it

is TN instead. MUCH better option! lol

>

> Caroline

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Wow, that is excellent Caroline! I can just see it next time my family comes to visit and wants their coffee in the morning - they'll find Total Nutrition in their coffee cups instead! LOL!! ;)

 

Kelli

 

 

Caroline [ladyguinevere] Saturday, June 19, 2004 10:48 AMherbal_Remedies Subject: Herbal Remedies - Just a thought

I did not have one though, because after I had my morning TN I didn't feel like it anymore. Isn't that strange?? I am delighted...as that was my morning thing but now...it is TN instead. MUCH better option! lol

 

Caroline

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TN is Total Nutrition and you can find that in the files.

 

The tea I make is simply using bulk Mullein and bulk Licorice root put into my tea infuser (or when I don't feel like grains in my coffee because the Mullein leaves grains I use a small sized coffee filter tied with a cotton string) and make hot tea. You can use whatever herbs you like to make tea. Whatever you feel you need or like but I have to say I was not sure about the Licorice root but in my studies have found that this along with Mullein...made into a hot tea are supposed to help build my lungs and improve my breathing which in turn will help with my asthma and is the main source of my concerns at this point so I thought I would give it a try. The Licorice root tea...it is actually very sweet! I was delighted with the flavor it produced!!

 

Caroline

 

-

Ella

herbal remedies

Sunday, June 20, 2004 4:53 PM

Herbal Remedies - Re: Just a thought

I'm a total coffee addict as well! I don't drink much, just a couple cups in the morning (literally, like 12-16oz), but if I DON'T drink it, I get this skullbuster of a headache.What is TN, and where do I get some of that Licorice Root Tea??Ellaherbal remedies , "Caroline" <ladyguinevere@e...> wrote:> A few weeks ago I was talking about really enjoying my cup of coffee in the morning and not really wanting to give it up. Well, since I started taking my TN and drinking the MOST delicious Mulein and Licorice root tea I have not so much as thought of a cup of coffee until this morning. I did not have one though, because after I had my morning TN I didn't feel like it anymore. Isn't that strange?? I am delighted...as that was my morning thing but now...it is TN instead. MUCH better option! lol> > CarolineFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington

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Gina,

 

TN is Total Nutrition. The recipe is in the files. As far as the tea, yes I just use the herb and put it in my tea infuser and make my own tea. The licorice root is truly yummy!!

 

Caroline

 

-

Gina

herbal remedies

Sunday, June 20, 2004 7:28 AM

Herbal Remedies - Re: Just a thought

What do you mean bt TN? Also did you make the tea youself? what is the recipe?Ginaherbal remedies , "Caroline" <ladyguinevere@e...> wrote:> A few weeks ago I was talking about really enjoying my cup of coffee in the morning and not really wanting to give it up. Well, since I started taking my TN and drinking the MOST delicious Mulein and Licorice root tea I have not so much as thought of a cup of coffee until this morning. I did not have one though, because after I had my morning TN I didn't feel like it anymore. Isn't that strange?? I am delighted...as that was my morning thing but now...it is TN instead. MUCH better option! lol> > CarolineFederal Law requires that we warn you of the following: 1. Natural methods can sometimes backfire. 2. If you are pregnant, consult your physician before using any natural remedy. 3. The Constitution guarantees you the right to be your own physician and toprescribe for your own health. We are not medical doctors although MDs are welcome to post here as long as they behave themselves. Any opinions put forth by the list members are exactly that, and any person following the advice of anyone posting here does so at their own risk. It is up to you to educate yourself. By accepting advice or products from list members, you are agreeing to be fully responsible for your own health, and hold the List Owner and members free of any liability. Dr. Ian ShillingtonDoctor of NaturopathyDr.IanShillington

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  • 3 years later...

Do our old ayurvedic sacred texts hold the same truth now since

climates, genes, etc , people , places, environment has changed so

much from the time these texts were written?

Just a query.

 

 

 

 

____________

 

However, what is wrong when when a drug

recommend

in ancient text is suggested to a patient and he exclaims, " sir, I

have already taken it for last six months and i have no benifits!

It

was prescribed to me by an authentic doctor and was from a very

reputed pharmacy " .

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I would like to answer your second question about non effects of medicine.

Ayurveda has an Individual approach for treating patient. Hence the ready made

medicines though prescribed by experienced Vaidya and of reputed company some

times are non effective.

Charaka, Vagbhata and Sushruta has written thousands of medicinal preparations.

They were practitioners and while treating patients they used to classify

constitution of the patient, pathology, etiology, stage of the disease etc.

After considering many factors they were making different combinations and

preparations suitable for that particular patient. This is the write way of

treating patient by Ayurveda. But in today's life it is difficult to follow such

practice. Hence available products are used. Some times they are giving us good

results some times a big failure.

Vaidya Upadhye

www.astroayurvedalogy.com

www.astrotreat.blogspot.com

________________________________

Do our old ayurvedic sacred texts hold the same truth now since

climates, genes, etc , people , places, environment has changed so

much from the time these texts were written?

Just a query.

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Importance of climate, genes, places, and environment has been

emphasized by Ayurvedic ancient texts more than any other medicine

system. Ayurveda should not be compared to other systems, since

while other systems are medicine systems addressed to healing after

the sickness, ayurveda addresses health and longevity as the goal.

 

Accordingly, lifestyle for the day, season, and region has been

given importance. Ancient texts were written when population

densities were low, greenery was plenty, land fertility was high, 2

days of work was adequate for a week's food. Compassion, sympathy,

quietness of the mind, love were present as predominant vibrations

everywhere.

 

With the chemical soup in which we live, the pollution entering

through 20 kg of air that we daily breath in, the toxins in the

food, genetic modification of the food, synthetic drugs etc have

caused a lot of changes in the ways a modern vaidya has to think,

compared to ancient acharyas. To illustrate this idea, one or two

examples would suffice.

 

A lady aged 64, widow, having b.p. 150/90, swellings on legs,

erratic pulse, poor hunger, indigestion, gas, fatigue, insomnia,

coughing after midnight, dryness on feet, pains in most of the

muscles, shake in the hands when a cup of tea was held in hand,

tears in eyes when children used to visit her was brought for

ayurvedic assessment.

 

Pulse check and marma points check revealed that energy/oxygen to

heart muscle is reduced, breathing difficulties on exertion exist,

some mucous in lungs, toxin loaded liver and slight swelling on

liver and spleen. The reason for b.p. was seen as less blood supply

to brain, tension and anxiety in the mind, lack of sleep. Paleness

on hands indicated slightly reduced Hb also.

 

In the history, the lady was under anti-hypertensives for last 3

years. As a side effect of these, the insomnia, depression,

inadequate cardiac output (reduced ejection fraction also) was

caused. swelling on the feet, the muscle pain was due to poor

circulation. The side effect of the anti-depressant was shake in the

hand, and it was just before the allopath wanted to start Parkinson

medication that lady had come for ayurvedic suggestion. She was also

taking homeopathic medication, but there was no improvement

 

When 95% of her symptoms were traced to her allopathic medication,

she was advised to gradually reduce her medication after ayurvedic

drugs take hold and she starts feeling better. Since anti-depressant

was on for last 2 years, it should not be stopped suddenly, only

after panchgavya medicines freshen up the brain, as felt by patient

and also evidenced by normalized b.p. Author has seen that as the

blood becomes pure (pitta reduces), its supply increases by flexing

the arteries ( as special prowess of panchgaya medicines) the

patient recovers from depression. Detoxification of liver helped as

it restores the hormonal balance to some extent. The presence of

certain hormones in panchgavya medicines also eases post menopausal

changes. Most important, the neurotransmitters and microsteroids in

cow urine may be helping.

 

The cause for depression was noted to be the death of her son and

daughter-in-law, under iatrogenic disease, in a matter of three

months. Their memories kept haunting her.

 

Second case is more illustrative. A lady was experiencing rashes and

itch close to navel area for quite a long time. Allopathy,

homeopathy were tried without success. An ayurvedic practitioner

sent this case. Liver cancer, hepatitis, pancreatic cyst, spleen

enlargement, blood markers, everything was tested by earlier health

care providers, everything negative.

 

The rashes appeared towards evening, and caused intense itch, which

would vanish by midnight. Economic condition would not allow her to

enjoy outside foods.

 

Typical pulse of allergies was felt. It was seen that she used to

wear sari, a conventional dress of Indian women. They fold many

plates of the sari cloth and tuck the fold in at the navel area. On

the thought that synthetic material of the sari must be causing

allergy struck the mind, as appearance of the rashes and their

disapperance matched with the time of wear. She was asked to report

after a week, keeping a cotton cloth between the skin and sari fold.

No medicine was suggested. She just called up after a week saying

that the rashes did not appear at all!

 

In conclusion, author would say that ancient texts have to be used

as guideline to guess how modern lifestyle, environment is affecting

us. But common sense has to be used first, though opportunities

exist to use most modern equipment to substitute vaidyas brain. Even

softwares made by reputed universities can be classed in this modern

tools. How a patient runs from one practitioner to another is brought out by

them in message# 11641 and 12161. Many other messages report negative

experiences, and we need some introspection to locate and clean the virus in the

system.

 

___

Do our old ayurvedic sacred texts hold the same truth now since

climates, genes, etc , people , places, environment has changed so

much from the time these texts were written?

Just a query.

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