cataract = linganasha

[Guest guest]

> You seem to have some biased and incorrect views about the BAMS

> course conducted uniformly all over India and exhibit more

> preference for traditional vaidyas. However, you may not be knowing

> that the BAMS syllabus includes all the original texts of Ayurveda

> from where the traditional vaidyas source their treatments.

 

I have spoken candidly with several BAMS grads, and it is clear that

just memorizing a text to cram for an exam is NOT the same thing as

knowledge!! For e.g., one grad told me that they had to memorize the

Nadivijnanam, but after graduating had no idea how to take a pulse!

This is only one example.

 

> Besides the students of BAMS also get to observe and work with

> experienced opthalmologists too. Your statement that " a fresh-faced

> BAMS candidate has little experience, let alone clinical

> experience " , echoes ill about the graduates. Would you say the same

> about modern medicine freshers?

 

Yes I would. As any professional in any field will state, it is

actual working experience that counts!! Come now... I teach ND

students that graduate with more than 5000 hours of clinical training

and the same thing can be said of them.

 

You claim that the syllabus BAMS candidates follow is in part

comprised of courses based on the ancient texts. But who wrote those

texts? BAMS candidates? Ridiculous! So how can you systemically

invalidate the knowledge of traditionally trained vaidyas without

even seeing or experiencing it? It truly boggles the mind. I say

you are playing politics - pure and simple. You actually provide

precious little of value to this list except to critique others and

complain about how none of us are as smart or well-trained as you.

And its EXACTLY this kind of petty political professionalism and one-

up-manship that is the hallmark of societal corruption. A good

example is an army comprised of people impassioned for the protection

of their nation, versus an army of professional mercenaries that

exist to ferment and prolong war. Now take this analogy and apply it

to any professional field, such as medicine. Eventually the

profession exists to serve its own interests.

 

>

> I still repeat that Lingnash is to be equated with cataract because

> of the similarity in symptoms mentioned in the samhitas and not

> because I say it. The pittavidagdha drushti and kapha-vidagdha

> drushti has symptoms which signify the involvement of retina and

> hence cannot be grouped as lingnash.Sushrut has clearly mentioned

> that these are the six types of lingnash and the other six diseases

> which reside in the drushti will be told further - " Shad Lingnash

> Shadime Cha Roga Drushtyaashrayaa Shat Cha Shadeva Vachya " .

> (Sushrut Samhita Uttartantra 7). The references to Pittavidagdha

> drushti and others follows after this sutra.

 

Is it your perspective that ALL six forms of Linganasha as described

by Sushruta correspond to a medical diagnosis of cataract? Is there

any way for you to explain this more fully, by correlating each type

(i.e. vattika, paittika etc) with the etiology and pathogenesis of

cataract in modern ophthalamology?

 

> Even according to Ayurveda, cataract ( Ling-nash as called in

> Ayurvedic terms ), is a disorder to be treated surgically.There is

> no established or proven herbal therapy in Ayurveda which can avoid

> cataract surgery.

>

 

Although you equate Linganasha with cataract, and then state that

cataract is incurable with herbal therapy, is there not reference in

the Ayurvedic samhitas that certain types of linganasha are curable

without surgery?

 

best wishes...

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

 

If placing a proper perspective is politics, then I refrain from any comments.

I have met most of the types of Ayurvedic practitioners,including traditional

ones.And just because some BAMS graduates commented about their cramming, you

have made a universal opinion that all BAMS graduates are of same quality.How

ridiculous of you! I pity such opinion. You say this with such a authority as if

you teach BAMS graduates and know everything about the course.

You get the impression about my one-up-manship because I try to open up the real

Ayurveda and contradict the deviated versions. Many good vaidyas have stopped

contributing here just because of such a misplaced and misguided attitude that

you have exhibited.

I oppose quick-fix medical solutions often posted here and that is the only

reason for my non-contribution.

And if you feel that I am misguiding, then go ahead and prove me wrong. Why play

the blame-game? If you know so much of Ayurveda, why raise questions?

Somehow I get the feeling that it is not worth discussing Ayurveda among those

who do not value the real stuff.

May real Ayurveda prevail.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

Ayurveda Consultant

M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine (Mumbai-India)

Vice-Prasident,BAMS Graduates Association,Maharashtra-India

< dahpc >

_______________

I have spoken candidly with several BAMS grads, and it is clear that

just memorizing a text to cram for an exam is NOT the same thing as

knowledge!! For e.g., one grad told me that they had to memorize the

Nadivijnanam, but after graduating had no idea how to take a pulse!

This is only one example.

[Guest guest]

> I have met most of the types of Ayurvedic practitioners,including

> traditional ones.And just because some BAMS graduates commented

> about their cramming, you have made a universal opinion that all

> BAMS graduates are of same quality.How ridiculous of you! I pity

> such opinion.

 

why? substantively, it means that the BAMS candidate graduates

without _understanding_ the knowledge

your pity for me notwithstanding, why is this not an important

consideration?

 

for me, this issue runs at the heart of the modern educational model

 

can you not see that ayurveda's adoption of western educational

values actually distorts the teaching?

 

when ayurveda evolved in India, when the great classics were

enunciated, taught, and committed to memory, the method of

instruction was very, very different than it is now, and

demonstrably, this has a significant effect on the level of knowledge

and practice

 

> You get the impression about my one-up-manship because I try to

> open up the real Ayurveda and contradict the deviated versions.

> Many good vaidyas have stopped contributing here just because of

> such a misplaced and misguided attitude that you have exhibited.

 

neither your character nor mine is easily ascertained on an email

discussion list, and it would be most helpful if you could limit

yourself to substantive comments and avoid the ad hominem attacks

 

>

> And if you feel that I am misguiding, then go ahead and prove me

> wrong.

 

it is not my interest in proving anybody wrong, although i will not

shy away from expressing my opinions

 

what i thirst for is knowledge, and when this comes down to treatment

specifically, my focus is entirely based on efficacy

 

on several occasions i have tried to have a logical and reasoned

discussion with you, such as when we were discussing diabetes, but in

the end you failed to address the complex issues i raised and turned

the discussion into a personal one, as you are doing now

 

i will admit that i don't have a perfected knowledge of ayurveda, and

that there are many gaps, particularly with regard to pathological

terminology - however, we all must begin somewhere, and with regard

to treatment, i take vaghbata's comments to heart:

 

vikaara-naamaa-kushalo na jihriyaat kadaa-ca-na

na hi sarva-vikaaraanaam naamato 'sti dhruvaa sthitih

 

" the physician need never feel shy for not knowing the name of a disease

for there is no rule that every disease has a name "

 

(AH, SS, 12:64)

 

perhaps you need to take me, and this list, with a grain of

saindhava ;-)

and share your opinions with friendliness and good humor

 

peace...

Caldecott, Dip. Cl.H, RH(AHG)

Ayurvedic practitioner, Medical Herbalist

203 - 1750 East 10th Ave

Vancouver, BC V5N 5K4 CANADA

web: http//:www.toddcaldecott.com

email: todd

tel: (1)778.896.8894

fax: (1)866.703.2792

[Guest guest]

 

Even I do not intend to get personal with anybody. But as your replies contained

some comments of accusing nature, hence I had to clarify the situation in same

tone. Your comment on BAMS graduated doctor/vaidya as 'candidate graduating

without understanding the knowledge' is in bad taste. You seem to ridicule the

Indian government by this comment. Don't you feel that you are exceeding your

brief just to defend your freedom of opinion. You really don't seem to know the

ground realities, but still are happy to comment / ridicule within your limited

knowledge resources.

Even if you like the Gurukul model of enunciation,teaching and committment to

memory, it is not possible in this advanced times. And Gurukul system had it's

own disadvantage of caste discrimination and prejudice, and the whims of Guru.

Atleast, the current educational system eliminates such issues. When a computer

can keep the memory, does one need to load his brain to show the old

originality?

The problem you encounter is that when a befitting explanation for your conplex

issue is given within Ayurvedic parameters, you don't seem to get content with

the same. Remember that limitations of Ayurvedic treatments resulted in research

of antibiotics, anaesthetics and pain-killers, which however bad, have changed

the face of medicine and mankind for better to a great extent. Don't try to

expect or force answers in Ayurvedic perspective where there are none. Don't

expect a medicinal treatment for every disease as treatment and curability

depends on the condition and stage of disease advancement. You seem to create

complex issues out if your own imaginations which nobody can help, leave alone

Ayurveda. Accept what Ayurvedic scriptures tell and then go for other levels of

knowledge.

Inspite of your acceptance of limited knowledge about Ayurveda, you seem to

force your opinions on others with a impression that they are Ayurvedic. That is

the only reason, I have countered your statements to the extent that they should

not distort the original Ayurvedic opinions.

And, yes, I commented strongly, when the Ayurvedic opinions mentioned by me were

ridiculed by you and you preferred to post personal comments about me.

And, if you really have a genuine query, I would always like to answer it; but a

attitude of quizzing is not a correct way for posting and learning both.

Friendliness and good humour will always remain, till someone tries to get smart

enough to place his personal opinions as Real Ayurveda.

 

Dr.D.B.Muzumdar

Ayurveda Consultant

M.D.Ayurveda-Medicine (Mumbai-India)

Vice-President, BAMS Graduates Association, Maharashtra.

Mail : dahpc

Website : www.indiamart.com/dhanwantariayurvedic

______________________________

can you not see that ayurveda's adoption of western educational

values actually distorts the teaching?

 

when ayurveda evolved in India, when the great classics were

enunciated, taught, and committed to memory, the method of

instruction was very, very different than it is now, and

demonstrably, this has a significant effect on the level of knowledge

and practice

[Guest guest]

> Even I do not intend to get personal with anybody. But as your replies

contained some

comments of accusing nature, hence I had to clarify the situation in same tone.<

 

perhaps that " tone " is a simple reflection of your own internal biases, what you

choose to

read into - i suggest you stick with the _substance_ of what i say, and address

my points

in a logical, rational manner

 

> Your comment on BAMS graduated doctor/vaidya as 'candidate graduating without

understanding the knowledge' is in bad taste.<

 

i see you found it a " bitter pill " to swallow, but that doesn't make it any less

true

 

>You seem to ridicule the Indian government by this comment.<

 

i fail to understand how my criticism, which you characterize as " ridicule " , is

an indictment

against the " indian government " , especially when i am specifically criticizing

" western

educational values " !!

 

> The problem you encounter is that when a befitting explanation for your

conplex issue

is given within Ayurvedic parameters, you don't seem to get content with the

same. <

 

because your arguments don't address the points i raise - you spend more time on

these

useless conversations than the actual subject at hand! one wonders why...

 

>Remember that limitations of Ayurvedic treatments resulted in research of

antibiotics,

anaesthetics and pain-killers, which however bad, have changed the face of

medicine

and mankind for better to a great extent. Don't try to expect or force answers

in

Ayurvedic perspective where there are none. Don't expect a medicinal treatment

for

every disease as treatment and curability depends on the condition and stage of

disease

advancement. You seem to create complex issues out if your own imaginations

which

nobody can help, leave alone Ayurveda. Accept what Ayurvedic scriptures tell and

then

go for other levels of knowledge.<

 

in every argument you make there is a consistent failure to consider the

universality of

ayurveda and its inherent synergy and potential integration with other systems

of holistic

medicine, let alone its application outside of india or within a strict " indian "

context

 

even in india, ayurvedic practitioners integrate knowledge from non-ayurvedic

sources,

such as tribal practices; and what about how the alchemical siddha tradition has

influenced ayurveda? certainly many vaidyas like to recommend bhasmas and the

like, but

where are all the shlokas in charaka that discuss the use of these products?

and what

about the influence of yoga on ayurveda? or how about the influence of unani,

tibetan and

chinese medicine on ayurveda?

 

yes, the scriptures guide and inspire, but we also must remember that NONE of

these texts

including charaka is the real, authentic and complete knowledge that was said to

be

passed down by bharadvaja and atreya

 

it isn't just my opinion but an enormous amount of academic research tells us

that over

the millennia these texts have been damaged through sections being lost,

rewritten or

otherwise edited

 

as a result, there are many many texts that succeeded charaka that sought to

clarify and

expand upon it, if for no other reason, because the authors sought to make

ayurveda more

_relevant_ to them, to provide a new context

 

while you present ayurveda as just one thing, i see your perspective as an

imposition of

western values concerning standards of " education " and " professionalism "

 

the " real " ayurveda is a heterodox tradition, just as are all the indian

sciences, reflecting

the multitude of experiences and practices

 

to me this is the great strength of indian culture, that for so many years it

resisted the

tendency to narrowly define itself and create patterns of fundamentalist beliefs

 

indian culture has spawned millions of gods and goddess, and a plethora of

spiritual

practices, and yet you are telling me there is only one ayurveda! it boggles

the mind!! but

it doesn't matter anyway, because you are quite simply wrong, not because i say

so, but

because of the multitudes of other vaidyas that would disagree with you by

saying that

only they know the " real " ayurveda

 

todd caldecott