Ketosis - Good Or Bad??

[Guest guest]

Hello Frank,

 

I am assuming the detox during the MC is because of weight loss. I think anytime you have weight loss you are detoxing by definition. Although I have not read this. The reason they give for not doing a water fast is we could detox too fast and have some bad side effect. I did a 36 day water fast and had no problems. I have read on the fasting group that some other people have had problems. If one has a problem my solution would be to modify the water fast with some fruit or juice to slow down the detox rate then go back to the water fast. Some authors say anything not water is not a fast, but a diet. Fruit juice diet, etc. Water fasting has been around much longer than the other types.

 

The body was designed to water fast. The hunter gatherer would not have survived if he had not had the strength to hunt his next meal. Actually I think the best method of fasting may be a week of eating and three days of fasting or something similar the copy's early man's way of eating.

 

--

Best regards,

Robert ROBERT RATLIFF EN LA CHORRERA DE PANAMA

Saturday, May 13, 2006, 10:45:47 AM, you wrote:

 

 

 

 

>

 

 

Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and followed these otherwise "harmful" diets for the dramatic weight loss results I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they were regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every book I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into practice many times.

 

At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply state that both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on ketosis to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from metabolism of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does just fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the overall body metabolism becomes "protein sparing" rather than attacking lean body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain. All this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the information on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it up. It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition. Another positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of hunger while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of ketosis may be, they seem to be outweighed by the positives.

 

Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and the various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially HIGH carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to make up a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is being blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the literature on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body to heal itself, etc. but with gentler "healing crises" from release of toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute bed rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can see where they virually free the body of the enormous energy requirements for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.

 

But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the benefits of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the ketosis in the first place???????

 

I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any low fat combined with low sodium diet will kill appetite because fat and salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead to "addiction".

 

The water only fasting literature about why it works has been around for a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing people simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to suit their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?

 

This point has kept me from going any where near juice fasting and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns because of the "protein sparing" or not issue.

 

Comments?

 

Frank

 

 

 

New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Frank...I think you are confusing two things...Weight Loss and

Fasting..The objective of Fasting is not necessarily weight loss..it

is to allow the body to heal through reducing exogenous metabolism to

a very simpe process...fasting and healing are like a reversible

equilibrium reaction. The process of cellular and tissue healing

accelerates when the intake of substances is reduced to a

minimum..and the toxins intake stopped..

 

Vegtable Juice has essentialy one main factor...it is a highly

concentrated BioActive Liquid, rich not only in Enzymes, but also

Bioflavinoids and anti oxidents. It is so solube, that it requires

very little digestion and is absorbed relatively easily.

The level of concentration of Bioflavinoids and anit oxidants is

extremely high in vegtable juices.

 

Lets take carrots for example. Carrots have approx 200 ug beta

carotene/gm. If you eat a raw carrot, that is 20 mg of beta carotene.

Eating a raw carrot, you only absorb 1% of the beta carotene. so that

is 2 mg of BC. If you juice it , you absorb 90% of the beta carotene,

that is 18 mg beta carotene. That is 28800 IU Beta Carotene. Now,

only 10% of Beta Carotene in the Body is converted to Vitamin A. So

that means your carrot raw will give you only :

 

1 Raw Carrot 2 mg BC---> 3200 IU Beta Carotene--->320 IU Vit A

1 Raw Carrot Juiced 18 mg BC---> 28800 IU BC----> 2880 IU Vit A

 

You need 2 Juiced Raw carrots to give you 6000 IU Vit A which is the

RDA.

You need to eat 20 Raw Carrots to give you the same 6000 IU Vit A.

I think that puts it in perspective...plus you are getting all the

enzymes in the rich Juice and the Bioflav...and this is only a

Carrot...what about a Beet..

So I can say that we are getting a 10x more concentrated and

BioActive liquid from the Juice then from the Raw Carrots and

beets...:-). It does feel that way when you drink it..

 

, Frank Berveiler

<frankshtn wrote:

>

> Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets

like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and followed

these otherwise " harmful " diets for the dramatic weight loss results

I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they were

regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every book

I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into

practice many times.

>

> At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply

state that both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on ketosis

to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of

carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from metabolism

of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the

glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does just

fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the overall

body metabolism becomes " protein sparing " rather than attacking lean

body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain. All

this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the information

on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it up.

It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition. Another

positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of

hunger while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of ketosis

may be, they seem to be outweighed

> by the positives.

>

> Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and the

various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially HIGH

carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very

conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to make up

a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is being

blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the literature

on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of

water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body to

heal itself, etc. but with gentler " healing crises " from release of

toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute bed

rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can see

where they virually free the body of the enormous energy requirements

for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.

>

> But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the benefits

of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the

ketosis in the first place???????

>

> I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any low

fat combined with low sodium diet will kill appetite because fat and

salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead to " addiction " .

>

> The water only fasting literature about why it works has been

around for a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing people

simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to suit

their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?

>

> This point has kept me from going any where near juice fasting

and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns because of

the " protein sparing " or not issue.

>

> Comments?

>

> Frank

>

>

>

>

>

> New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC

and save big.

>

[Guest guest]

Wendy, I think I have the answer to why juice and discard the pulp (fiber), then take a laxative to promote bowel function, as silly as that may sound. Even though fiber is basically good for scrubbing out the intestines, it isn't good for detoxing other parts of the body. Since pure raw vegetable or fruit juice requires little energy for digestion, it makes that energy available for detoxing. Moreover, the raw juice should be loaded with enzymes, provided the juice is fresh and not canned juice that's been pastrurized for storage life thus killing all the nutrients in the juice. That's why I like the Burroughs Master Cleanser because I can make the lemonade by hand and not need a juicer. I'm also aware there's somewhat of a controversy between the juicers and the blenders, because of the fiber issue. I think for green

drinks people prefer blending with the fiber left in. But I really think that's a different topic than cleansing. It's more in the nutritional area of detoxing rather than cleaning out the GI tract and having excess energy and body enzymes to carry out detoxing and healing reactions in the body. That's just my interpretation and opinion. I hope others who don't agree will speak up so we can all benefit from additional information and opinions. I'm also concerned about some of the green drink recipes that combines fruits and vegetables in the same drink, thus violating the priciples of food combining, and alkalinity forming combinations. I personally favor blending. Some of the cancer prevention books I've read favor it. Another crackpot idea of mine, that may not work, is to get a top of the line blender, blend first, then run the blended product through an ordinary inexpensive blender after the fiber

has been already broken up beforehand. Is this a practical idea juicers? Frank Wendy Lynn <ky_wendylynn wrote: Frank,These are pretty much the same thoughts I have. I have an enormous amount of detoxing to do and weight to lose. I have decided that water fasting really is the best (and only, in the literal sense of the word) fast. However, I also realize my body isn't ready for something that extreme. So, before I put my body through a fast, I am going to go on an all raw diet. There will be lots of carbs, but I am not trying to put my body into ketosis (yet.)I personally can't even figure out why someone would want to take the fiber out of their food only to turn around and give themselves an enema because the

body isn't functioning as it should. I'd rather clean myself up as best I can and then go on a fast.I am curious as to everyone else's thoughts.Wendy_______________Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

[Guest guest]

Kefir, No I'm NOT confusing fasting and weight loss!!!!! I was referring to the two obvious cases where ketosis is known to occur because of the lack of carb intake. The fact that the one case is a weight loss diet, and the othera cleansing and healing fast, is just the way it is. My concern has strictly to do with HIGH carb intake, that tries to make the same claims as protocols with zero or very low carb intakes. I'm asking how you can have it both ways? I understand the part about the juices being very easy to process in the body. But they're STILL CARBS. And I understand that if carbs are present, ketosis doesn't happen. Without ketosis, and with very low total calories, the body will attack muscle (protein) to produce the glucose the brain MUST HAVE. I guess I'm wondering if

there's some non scientific quackery going on in the juice fasting and cleansing literature. Where's the PROOF?? I also KNOW juice is good strictly from a nutritional stand point whether it also provides safe detoxing and cleansing or not. I hope this clarrifies my concern. Frank kefir_king <kefir_king wrote: Frank...I think you are confusing two things...Weight Loss and Fasting..The objective of Fasting is not necessarily weight loss..it is to allow the body to heal through reducing exogenous metabolism to a very simpe process...fasting and healing are like a reversible equilibrium reaction. The process of cellular and tissue healing accelerates when the intake of substances is reduced to a

minimum..and the toxins intake stopped..Vegtable Juice has essentialy one main factor...it is a highly concentrated BioActive Liquid, rich not only in Enzymes, but also Bioflavinoids and anti oxidents. It is so solube, that it requires very little digestion and is absorbed relatively easily.The level of concentration of Bioflavinoids and anit oxidants is extremely high in vegtable juices. Lets take carrots for example. Carrots have approx 200 ug beta carotene/gm. If you eat a raw carrot, that is 20 mg of beta carotene.Eating a raw carrot, you only absorb 1% of the beta carotene. so that is 2 mg of BC. If you juice it , you absorb 90% of the beta carotene, that is 18 mg beta carotene. That is 28800 IU Beta Carotene. Now, only 10% of Beta Carotene in the Body is converted to Vitamin A. So that means your carrot raw will give you only :1 Raw Carrot 2 mg BC---> 3200 IU Beta Carotene--->320 IU

Vit A1 Raw Carrot Juiced 18 mg BC---> 28800 IU BC----> 2880 IU Vit AYou need 2 Juiced Raw carrots to give you 6000 IU Vit A which is the RDA.You need to eat 20 Raw Carrots to give you the same 6000 IU Vit A.I think that puts it in perspective...plus you are getting all the enzymes in the rich Juice and the Bioflav...and this is only a Carrot...what about a Beet..So I can say that we are getting a 10x more concentrated and BioActive liquid from the Juice then from the Raw Carrots and beets...:-). It does feel that way when you drink it.. , Frank Berveiler <frankshtn wrote:>> Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and followed these otherwise "harmful" diets for the dramatic weight loss results I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they

were regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every book I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into practice many times.> > At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply state that both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on ketosis to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from metabolism of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does just fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the overall body metabolism becomes "protein sparing" rather than attacking lean body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain. All this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the information on faith, and've never

seen any scientific references to back it up. It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition. Another positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of hunger while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of ketosis may be, they seem to be outweighed> by the positives.> > Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and the various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially HIGH carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to make up a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is being blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the literature on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body to heal itself,

etc. but with gentler "healing crises" from release of toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute bed rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can see where they virually free the body of the enormous energy requirements for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.> > But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the benefits of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the ketosis in the first place???????> > I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any low fat combined with low sodium diet will kill appetite because fat and salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead to "addiction".> > The water only fasting literature about why it works has been around for a long time. Have the juice fasting

and cleansing people simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to suit their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?> > This point has kept me from going any where near juice fasting and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns because of the "protein sparing" or not issue.> > Comments?> > Frank> > > > > > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.>

[Guest guest]

Re: Another crackpot idea of mine, that may not work, is to get a top of

the line blender, blend first, then run the blended product through an

ordinary inexpensive blender after the fiber has been already broken up

beforehand. Is this a practical idea juicers?

 

I think you mean to juice it after it has been blended. I don't think it

would work. I don't think juicers are equipped for that amount of juice to

be poured through. I think you'd probably get some juice, but you'd also

end up with a lot that has leaked out.

 

Wendy

 

_______________

On the road to retirement? Check out MSN Life Events for advice on how to

get there! http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=Retirement

[Guest guest]

Frank

There is something wrong in this argument. Ketosis only happens if

you starve the body out of Carbs..It happend to me..I was so weak..i

was falling over in the Gym...When Ketosis happens..that is when your

body attacks and disolves muscle proteins...because there is no

Glycogen..Carbs are the instrument used to regulate the Glycogen

store, so that you have enough energy for daily actvity and not more

which will build up to fat..the Key is to control Carb intake ..not

TOO Much nor Too little...

, Frank Berveiler

<frankshtn wrote:

>

> Kefir,

>

> No I'm NOT confusing fasting and weight loss!!!!!

>

> I was referring to the two obvious cases where ketosis is known

to occur because of the lack of carb intake. The fact that the one

case is a weight loss diet, and the other

> a cleansing and healing fast, is just the way it is.

>

> My concern has strictly to do with HIGH carb intake, that tries

to make the same claims as protocols with zero or very low carb

intakes.

>

> I'm asking how you can have it both ways? I understand the part

about the juices being very easy to process in the body. But they're

STILL CARBS. And I understand that if carbs are present, ketosis

doesn't happen. Without ketosis, and with very low total calories,

the body will attack muscle (protein) to produce the glucose the

brain MUST HAVE.

>

> I guess I'm wondering if there's some non scientific quackery

going on in the juice fasting and cleansing literature. Where's the

PROOF?? I also KNOW juice is good strictly from a nutritional stand

point whether it also provides safe detoxing and cleansing or not.

>

> I hope this clarrifies my concern.

>

> Frank

>

>

>

> kefir_king <kefir_king wrote:

> Frank...I think you are confusing two things...Weight Loss and

> Fasting..The objective of Fasting is not necessarily weight

loss..it

> is to allow the body to heal through reducing exogenous metabolism

to

> a very simpe process...fasting and healing are like a reversible

> equilibrium reaction. The process of cellular and tissue healing

> accelerates when the intake of substances is reduced to a

> minimum..and the toxins intake stopped..

>

> Vegtable Juice has essentialy one main factor...it is a highly

> concentrated BioActive Liquid, rich not only in Enzymes, but also

> Bioflavinoids and anti oxidents. It is so solube, that it requires

> very little digestion and is absorbed relatively easily.

> The level of concentration of Bioflavinoids and anit oxidants is

> extremely high in vegtable juices.

>

> Lets take carrots for example. Carrots have approx 200 ug beta

> carotene/gm. If you eat a raw carrot, that is 20 mg of beta

carotene.

> Eating a raw carrot, you only absorb 1% of the beta carotene. so

that

> is 2 mg of BC. If you juice it , you absorb 90% of the beta

carotene,

> that is 18 mg beta carotene. That is 28800 IU Beta Carotene. Now,

> only 10% of Beta Carotene in the Body is converted to Vitamin A. So

> that means your carrot raw will give you only :

>

> 1 Raw Carrot 2 mg BC---> 3200 IU Beta Carotene--->320 IU Vit A

> 1 Raw Carrot Juiced 18 mg BC---> 28800 IU BC----> 2880 IU Vit A

>

> You need 2 Juiced Raw carrots to give you 6000 IU Vit A which is

the

> RDA.

> You need to eat 20 Raw Carrots to give you the same 6000 IU Vit A.

> I think that puts it in perspective...plus you are getting all the

> enzymes in the rich Juice and the Bioflav...and this is only a

> Carrot...what about a Beet..

> So I can say that we are getting a 10x more concentrated and

> BioActive liquid from the Juice then from the Raw Carrots and

> beets...:-). It does feel that way when you drink it..

>

> , Frank Berveiler

> <frankshtn@> wrote:

> >

> > Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets

> like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and

followed

> these otherwise " harmful " diets for the dramatic weight loss

results

> I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they were

> regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every

book

> I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into

> practice many times.

> >

> > At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply

> state that both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on ketosis

> to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of

> carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from

metabolism

> of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the

> glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does

just

> fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the overall

> body metabolism becomes " protein sparing " rather than attacking

lean

> body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain. All

> this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the

information

> on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it

up.

> It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition.

Another

> positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of

> hunger while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of

ketosis

> may be, they seem to be outweighed

> > by the positives.

> >

> > Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and

the

> various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially

HIGH

> carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very

> conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to make

up

> a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is

being

> blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the

literature

> on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of

> water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body to

> heal itself, etc. but with gentler " healing crises " from release of

> toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute

bed

> rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can

see

> where they virually free the body of the enormous energy

requirements

> for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.

> >

> > But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the

benefits

> of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the

> ketosis in the first place???????

> >

> > I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any

low

> fat combined with low sodium diet will kill appetite because fat

and

> salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead

to " addiction " .

> >

> > The water only fasting literature about why it works has been

> around for a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing

people

> simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to

suit

> their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?

> >

> > This point has kept me from going any where near juice fasting

> and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns because

of

> the " protein sparing " or not issue.

> >

> > Comments?

> >

> > Frank

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC

> and save big.

> >

[Guest guest]

Hello kefir_king,

 

Wrong. Do more reading. In ketosis you use non vital parts, fat first, heart last.

 

--

Best regards,

Robert Ratliff in La Chorrera De Panama

robert dot ratliff at cwpanama dot net

Sunday, May 14, 2006, 10:06:29 AM, you wrote:

 

 

 

 

>

 

 

Frank

There is something wrong in this argument. Ketosis only happens if

you starve the body out of Carbs..It happend to me..I was so weak..i

was falling over in the Gym...When Ketosis happens..that is when your

body attacks and disolves muscle proteins...because there is no

Glycogen..Carbs are the instrument used to regulate the Glycogen

store, so that you have enough energy for daily actvity and not more

which will build up to fat..the Key is to control Carb intake ..not

TOO Much nor Too little...

, Frank Berveiler

<frankshtn wrote:

>

> Kefir,

>

> No I'm NOT confusing fasting and weight loss!!!!!

>

> I was referring to the two obvious cases where ketosis is known

to occur because of the lack of carb intake. The fact that the one

case is a weight loss diet, and the other

> a cleansing and healing fast, is just the way it is.

>

> My concern has strictly to do with HIGH carb intake, that tries

to make the same claims as protocols with zero or very low carb

intakes.

>

> I'm asking how you can have it both ways? I understand the part

about the juices being very easy to process in the body. But they're

STILL CARBS. And I understand that if carbs are present, ketosis

doesn't happen. Without ketosis, and with very low total calories,

the body will attack muscle (protein) to produce the glucose the

brain MUST HAVE.

>

> I guess I'm wondering if there's some non scientific quackery

going on in the juice fasting and cleansing literature. Where's the

PROOF?? I also KNOW juice is good strictly from a nutritional stand

point whether it also provides safe detoxing and cleansing or not.

>

> I hope this clarrifies my concern.

>

> Frank

>

>

>

> kefir_king <kefir_king wrote:

> Frank...I think you are confusing two things...Weight Loss and

> Fasting..The objective of Fasting is not necessarily weight

loss..it

> is to allow the body to heal through reducing exogenous metabolism

to

> a very simpe process...fasting and healing are like a reversible

> equilibrium reaction. The process of cellular and tissue healing

> accelerates when the intake of substances is reduced to a

> minimum..and the toxins intake stopped..

>

> Vegtable Juice has essentialy one main factor...it is a highly

> concentrated BioActive Liquid, rich not only in Enzymes, but also

> Bioflavinoids and anti oxidents. It is so solube, that it requires

> very little digestion and is absorbed relatively easily.

> The level of concentration of Bioflavinoids and anit oxidants is

> extremely high in vegtable juices.

>

> Lets take carrots for example. Carrots have approx 200 ug beta

> carotene/gm. If you eat a raw carrot, that is 20 mg of beta

carotene.

> Eating a raw carrot, you only absorb 1% of the beta carotene. so

that

> is 2 mg of BC. If you juice it , you absorb 90% of the beta

carotene,

> that is 18 mg beta carotene. That is 28800 IU Beta Carotene. Now,

> only 10% of Beta Carotene in the Body is converted to Vitamin A. So

> that means your carrot raw will give you only :

>

> 1 Raw Carrot 2 mg BC---> 3200 IU Beta Carotene--->320 IU Vit A

> 1 Raw Carrot Juiced 18 mg BC---> 28800 IU BC----> 2880 IU Vit A

>

> You need 2 Juiced Raw carrots to give you 6000 IU Vit A which is

the

> RDA.

> You need to eat 20 Raw Carrots to give you the same 6000 IU Vit A.

> I think that puts it in perspective...plus you are getting all the

> enzymes in the rich Juice and the Bioflav...and this is only a

> Carrot...what about a Beet..

> So I can say that we are getting a 10x more concentrated and

> BioActive liquid from the Juice then from the Raw Carrots and

> beets...:-). It does feel that way when you drink it..

>

> , Frank Berveiler

> <frankshtn@> wrote:

> >

> > Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets

> like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and

followed

> these otherwise "harmful" diets for the dramatic weight loss

results

> I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they were

> regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every

book

> I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into

> practice many times.

> >

> > At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply

> state that both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on ketosis

> to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of

> carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from

metabolism

> of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the

> glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does

just

> fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the overall

> body metabolism becomes "protein sparing" rather than attacking

lean

> body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain. All

> this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the

information

> on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it

up.

> It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition.

Another

> positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of

> hunger while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of

ketosis

> may be, they seem to be outweighed

> > by the positives.

> >

> > Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and

the

> various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially

HIGH

> carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very

> conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to make

up

> a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is

being

> blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the

literature

> on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of

> water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body to

> heal itself, etc. but with gentler "healing crises" from release of

> toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute

bed

> rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can

see

> where they virually free the body of the enormous energy

requirements

> for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.

> >

> > But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the

benefits

> of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the

> ketosis in the first place???????

> >

> > I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any

low

> fat combined with low sodium diet will kill appetite because fat

and

> salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead

to "addiction".

> >

> > The water only fasting literature about why it works has been

> around for a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing

people

> simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to

suit

> their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?

> >

> > This point has kept me from going any where near juice fasting

> and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns because

of

> the "protein sparing" or not issue.

> >

> > Comments?

> >

> > Frank

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC

> and save big.

> >

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kefir, With all due respect, I think you're off base in your understanding of what ketosis is. When you first start either a water only fast OR the Atkins diet, even though, for all intent and purpose, you eliminate carbs from your DIET, there are still carbs stored in your body. The carbs are stored as glycogen. That source of carbs is normally used up in something like 1-3 days. The body is designed to give prioity to the brain for both oxygen and nutrition. Normal nutrition for the brain is glucose. The alternate fuel for the brain is ketones. The brain evidently works EQUALLY well on EITHER FUEL!! Fortunately, the body quickly switches over to ketones. That's because the body is also designed to heal itself, both in humans and in animals. Ketosis is a condition designed for healing. That's why animals

instictivly "fast" when they don't feel good. But modern medical ideas have changed things for humans who used to also fast for healing, but now do almost the opposite. They look to their doctors for "magic pills" to make them well, and continue with their "SAD" (standard American diets) which actually do more harm than good when it comes to healing. BUT...as long as the body has a CONTINUING source of carbs besides/in addition to the glycogen, ketosis won't occur. Some detoxing will still take place on a juice fast, but only because it gives the body excess energy (formerly devoted to digestion) to devote to strengthening the immune system. But the calories from the juice will reduce the amount of fat, and toxins burned to maintain the body's total energy requirements, compared to the ZERO calorie intake of a water only fast. That's why I think fasts less than 3 days are of little value, because little to

no ketosis occurs. I don't want to beat a dead horse to death on this issue. We're all in agreement on most things here, just in need of clarrifying some educational misunderstandings on some details. We probably should move on to topics where we agree. I think we agree on giving prioriy to natural healing, and preventing illness from occurring in the first place. Frankkefir_king <kefir_king wrote: FrankThere is something wrong in this argument. Ketosis only happens if you starve the body out of Carbs..It happend to me..I was so weak..i was falling over in the Gym...When Ketosis happens..that is when your body attacks and disolves muscle proteins...because there is no Glycogen..Carbs are the instrument

used to regulate the Glycogen store, so that you have enough energy for daily actvity and not more which will build up to fat..the Key is to control Carb intake ..not TOO Much nor Too little... , Frank Berveiler <frankshtn wrote:>> Kefir,> > No I'm NOT confusing fasting and weight loss!!!!!> > I was referring to the two obvious cases where ketosis is known to occur because of the lack of carb intake. The fact that the one case is a weight loss diet, and the other> a cleansing and healing fast, is just the way it is.> > My concern has strictly to do with HIGH carb intake, that tries to make the same claims as protocols with zero or very low carb intakes.> > I'm asking how you can have it

both ways? I understand the part about the juices being very easy to process in the body. But they're STILL CARBS. And I understand that if carbs are present, ketosis doesn't happen. Without ketosis, and with very low total calories, the body will attack muscle (protein) to produce the glucose the brain MUST HAVE.> > I guess I'm wondering if there's some non scientific quackery going on in the juice fasting and cleansing literature. Where's the PROOF?? I also KNOW juice is good strictly from a nutritional stand point whether it also provides safe detoxing and cleansing or not.> > I hope this clarrifies my concern.> > Frank> > > > kefir_king <kefir_king wrote:> Frank...I

think you are confusing two things...Weight Loss and > Fasting..The objective of Fasting is not necessarily weight loss..it > is to allow the body to heal through reducing exogenous metabolism to > a very simpe process...fasting and healing are like a reversible > equilibrium reaction. The process of cellular and tissue healing > accelerates when the intake of substances is reduced to a > minimum..and the toxins intake stopped..> > Vegtable Juice has essentialy one main factor...it is a highly > concentrated BioActive Liquid, rich not only in Enzymes, but also > Bioflavinoids and anti oxidents. It is so solube, that it requires > very little digestion and is absorbed relatively easily.> The level of concentration of Bioflavinoids and anit oxidants is > extremely high in vegtable juices. > > Lets take carrots for example. Carrots have approx 200 ug beta

> carotene/gm. If you eat a raw carrot, that is 20 mg of beta carotene.> Eating a raw carrot, you only absorb 1% of the beta carotene. so that > is 2 mg of BC. If you juice it , you absorb 90% of the beta carotene, > that is 18 mg beta carotene. That is 28800 IU Beta Carotene. Now, > only 10% of Beta Carotene in the Body is converted to Vitamin A. So > that means your carrot raw will give you only :> > 1 Raw Carrot 2 mg BC---> 3200 IU Beta Carotene--->320 IU Vit A> 1 Raw Carrot Juiced 18 mg BC---> 28800 IU BC----> 2880 IU Vit A> > You need 2 Juiced Raw carrots to give you 6000 IU Vit A which is the > RDA.> You need to eat 20 Raw Carrots to give you the same 6000 IU Vit A.> I think that puts it in perspective...plus you are getting all the > enzymes in the rich Juice and the Bioflav...and this is only a > Carrot...what about a

Beet..> So I can say that we are getting a 10x more concentrated and > BioActive liquid from the Juice then from the Raw Carrots and > beets...:-). It does feel that way when you drink it..> > , Frank Berveiler > <frankshtn@> wrote:> >> > Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets > like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and followed > these otherwise "harmful" diets for the dramatic weight loss results > I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they were > regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every book > I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into > practice many times.> > > > At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply > state that

both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on ketosis > to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of > carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from metabolism > of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the > glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does just > fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the overall > body metabolism becomes "protein sparing" rather than attacking lean > body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain. All > this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the information > on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it up. > It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition. Another > positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of > hunger while

it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of ketosis > may be, they seem to be outweighed> > by the positives.> > > > Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and the > various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially HIGH > carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very > conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to make up > a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is being > blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the literature > on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of > water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body to > heal itself, etc. but with gentler "healing crises" from release of > toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute

bed > rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can see > where they virually free the body of the enormous energy requirements > for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.> > > > But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the benefits > of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the > ketosis in the first place???????> > > > I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any low > fat combined with low sodium diet will kill appetite because fat and > salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead to "addiction".> > > > The water only fasting literature about why it works has been > around for a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing people

> simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to suit > their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?> > > > This point has kept me from going any where near juice fasting > and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns because of > the "protein sparing" or not issue.> > > > Comments?> > > > Frank> > > > > > > > > > > > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC > and save big.> >> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

>When Ketosis happens..that is when your

>body attacks and disolves muscle proteins

 

Frank's reply was excellent, but to simplify it further, ketosis is protein

SPARING.

 

_______________

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[Guest guest]

frank..thanks..when the glycogen store runs out...the fat in the body

is converted to glucose for energy..so you are running of your fat

store..that is the whole purpose of the aitken diet...i actually went

on it for 6 months..you do loose lots of weight...

 

, Frank Berveiler

<frankshtn wrote:

>

> Kefir,

>

> With all due respect, I think you're off base in your

understanding of what ketosis is.

>

> When you first start either a water only fast OR the Atkins diet,

even though, for all intent and purpose, you eliminate carbs from

your DIET, there are still carbs stored in your body. The carbs are

stored as glycogen. That source of carbs is normally used up in

something like 1-3 days.

>

> The body is designed to give prioity to the brain for both oxygen

and nutrition. Normal nutrition for the brain is glucose. The

alternate fuel for the brain is ketones. The brain evidently works

EQUALLY well on EITHER FUEL!! Fortunately, the body quickly switches

over to ketones. That's because the body is also designed to heal

itself, both in humans and in animals. Ketosis is a condition

designed for healing. That's why animals instictivly " fast " when

they don't feel good. But modern medical ideas have changed things

for humans who used to also fast for healing, but now do almost the

opposite. They look to their doctors for " magic pills " to make them

well, and continue with their " SAD " (standard American diets) which

actually do more harm than good when it comes to healing. BUT...as

long as the body has a CONTINUING source of carbs besides/in addition

to the glycogen, ketosis won't occur.

>

> Some detoxing will still take place on a juice fast, but only

because it gives the body excess energy (formerly devoted to

digestion) to devote to strengthening the immune system. But the

calories from the juice will reduce the amount of fat, and toxins

burned to maintain the body's total energy requirements, compared to

the ZERO calorie intake of a water only fast. That's why I think

fasts less than 3 days are of little value, because little to no

ketosis occurs.

>

> I don't want to beat a dead horse to death on this issue. We're

all in agreement on most things here, just in need of clarrifying

some educational misunderstandings on some details.

>

> We probably should move on to topics where we agree. I think we

agree on giving prioriy to natural healing, and preventing illness

from occurring in the first place.

>

> Frank

>

> kefir_king <kefir_king wrote:

> Frank

> There is something wrong in this argument. Ketosis only happens if

> you starve the body out of Carbs..It happend to me..I was so

weak..i

> was falling over in the Gym...When Ketosis happens..that is when

your

> body attacks and disolves muscle proteins...because there is no

> Glycogen..Carbs are the instrument used to regulate the Glycogen

> store, so that you have enough energy for daily actvity and not

more

> which will build up to fat..the Key is to control Carb intake ..not

> TOO Much nor Too little...

> , Frank Berveiler

> <frankshtn@> wrote:

> >

> > Kefir,

> >

> > No I'm NOT confusing fasting and weight loss!!!!!

> >

> > I was referring to the two obvious cases where ketosis is known

> to occur because of the lack of carb intake. The fact that the one

> case is a weight loss diet, and the other

> > a cleansing and healing fast, is just the way it is.

> >

> > My concern has strictly to do with HIGH carb intake, that tries

> to make the same claims as protocols with zero or very low carb

> intakes.

> >

> > I'm asking how you can have it both ways? I understand the

part

> about the juices being very easy to process in the body. But

they're

> STILL CARBS. And I understand that if carbs are present, ketosis

> doesn't happen. Without ketosis, and with very low total calories,

> the body will attack muscle (protein) to produce the glucose the

> brain MUST HAVE.

> >

> > I guess I'm wondering if there's some non scientific quackery

> going on in the juice fasting and cleansing literature. Where's

the

> PROOF?? I also KNOW juice is good strictly from a nutritional

stand

> point whether it also provides safe detoxing and cleansing or not.

> >

> > I hope this clarrifies my concern.

> >

> > Frank

> >

> >

> >

> > kefir_king <kefir_king@> wrote:

> > Frank...I think you are confusing two things...Weight Loss and

> > Fasting..The objective of Fasting is not necessarily weight

> loss..it

> > is to allow the body to heal through reducing exogenous

metabolism

> to

> > a very simpe process...fasting and healing are like a reversible

> > equilibrium reaction. The process of cellular and tissue healing

> > accelerates when the intake of substances is reduced to a

> > minimum..and the toxins intake stopped..

> >

> > Vegtable Juice has essentialy one main factor...it is a highly

> > concentrated BioActive Liquid, rich not only in Enzymes, but also

> > Bioflavinoids and anti oxidents. It is so solube, that it

requires

> > very little digestion and is absorbed relatively easily.

> > The level of concentration of Bioflavinoids and anit oxidants is

> > extremely high in vegtable juices.

> >

> > Lets take carrots for example. Carrots have approx 200 ug beta

> > carotene/gm. If you eat a raw carrot, that is 20 mg of beta

> carotene.

> > Eating a raw carrot, you only absorb 1% of the beta carotene. so

> that

> > is 2 mg of BC. If you juice it , you absorb 90% of the beta

> carotene,

> > that is 18 mg beta carotene. That is 28800 IU Beta Carotene. Now,

> > only 10% of Beta Carotene in the Body is converted to Vitamin A.

So

> > that means your carrot raw will give you only :

> >

> > 1 Raw Carrot 2 mg BC---> 3200 IU Beta Carotene--->320 IU Vit A

> > 1 Raw Carrot Juiced 18 mg BC---> 28800 IU BC----> 2880 IU Vit A

> >

> > You need 2 Juiced Raw carrots to give you 6000 IU Vit A which is

> the

> > RDA.

> > You need to eat 20 Raw Carrots to give you the same 6000 IU Vit A.

> > I think that puts it in perspective...plus you are getting all

the

> > enzymes in the rich Juice and the Bioflav...and this is only a

> > Carrot...what about a Beet..

> > So I can say that we are getting a 10x more concentrated and

> > BioActive liquid from the Juice then from the Raw Carrots and

> > beets...:-). It does feel that way when you drink it..

> >

> > , Frank Berveiler

> > <frankshtn@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets

> > like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and

> followed

> > these otherwise " harmful " diets for the dramatic weight loss

> results

> > I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they

were

> > regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every

> book

> > I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into

> > practice many times.

> > >

> > > At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply

> > state that both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on

ketosis

> > to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of

> > carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from

> metabolism

> > of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the

> > glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does

> just

> > fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the

overall

> > body metabolism becomes " protein sparing " rather than attacking

> lean

> > body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain.

All

> > this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the

> information

> > on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it

> up.

> > It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition.

> Another

> > positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack

of

> > hunger while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of

> ketosis

> > may be, they seem to be outweighed

> > > by the positives.

> > >

> > > Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and

> the

> > various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially

> HIGH

> > carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very

> > conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to

make

> up

> > a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is

> being

> > blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the

> literature

> > on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of

> > water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body

to

> > heal itself, etc. but with gentler " healing crises " from release

of

> > toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute

> bed

> > rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can

> see

> > where they virually free the body of the enormous energy

> requirements

> > for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.

> > >

> > > But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the

> benefits

> > of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the

> > ketosis in the first place???????

> > >

> > > I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any

> low

> > fat combined with low sodium diet will kill appetite because fat

> and

> > salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead

> to " addiction " .

> > >

> > > The water only fasting literature about why it works has been

> > around for a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing

> people

> > simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to

> suit

> > their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?

> > >

> > > This point has kept me from going any where near juice

fasting

> > and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns

because

> of

> > the " protein sparing " or not issue.

> > >

> > > Comments?

> > >

> > > Frank

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your

PC

> > and save big.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >