Ketosis - Good Or Bad??

[Guest guest]

Frank,

 

These are pretty much the same thoughts I have. I have an enormous amount

of detoxing to do and weight to lose. I have decided that water fasting

really is the best (and only, in the literal sense of the word) fast.

However, I also realize my body isn't ready for something that extreme. So,

before I put my body through a fast, I am going to go on an all raw diet.

There will be lots of carbs, but I am not trying to put my body into ketosis

(yet.)

 

I personally can't even figure out why someone would want to take the fiber

out of their food only to turn around and give themselves an enema because

the body isn't functioning as it should. I'd rather clean myself up as best

I can and then go on a fast.

 

I am curious as to everyone else's thoughts.

 

Wendy

 

_______________

Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

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[Guest guest]

Hey Frank and Wendy,

 

I was overweight as well (not extremely but still overweight) and I

still am but not as badly.

 

I have never been on a fast over 3 days on water and I have never

tried to do juice fasting. I have gotten to where I drink tons of

water everyday. I have helped me feel better.

 

I got turned onto Green Smoothies in an early post and read a lot

about them online. I started to make them with a Magic Bullet blender

that we got off of an infomercial and I love them. My wife and I had

talked about doing more to change our eating habits and this was one

of the things we had talked about doing. I have tried to do a couple

of different combinations but I like to keep things simple. I am also

a picky eater but usually make a smoothie with bananas and baby

spinach leaves. I found that after having just one smoothie for a day

for about 3 days that I truly started drinking a lot of water. Now

with a combo of the 2 I feel better than I have for about the last 5

years.

 

I know this doesn't have anything to do with the ketosis thread but I

just wanted to share what has worked for me.

 

I plan on doing a 7 day water fast probably in the next month or 2.

This is a big step for me and if it works well then I plan on doing a

21 day fast before the end of the summer. Stepping outside my box has

not always been my strong suit but it something that I know I have to do.

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this,

 

faststart164

 

, " Wendy Lynn "

<ky_wendylynn wrote:

>

> Frank,

>

> These are pretty much the same thoughts I have. I have an enormous

amount

> of detoxing to do and weight to lose. I have decided that water

fasting

> really is the best (and only, in the literal sense of the word) fast.

> However, I also realize my body isn't ready for something that

extreme. So,

> before I put my body through a fast, I am going to go on an all raw

diet.

> There will be lots of carbs, but I am not trying to put my body into

ketosis

> (yet.)

>

> I personally can't even figure out why someone would want to take

the fiber

> out of their food only to turn around and give themselves an enema

because

> the body isn't functioning as it should. I'd rather clean myself up

as best

> I can and then go on a fast.

>

> I am curious as to everyone else's thoughts.

>

> Wendy

>

> _______________

> Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!

> http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/

>

[Guest guest]

<<< All this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the

information on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it

up. It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition. Another

positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of hunger

while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of ketosis may be, they

seem to be outweighed

by the positives. >>>

 

The only way anyone will provide you scientific evidence supporting fasting

is if there is money in it. So far, count on what little pro-fasting science

to come from those who have a formula that protects the lining of the

stomach during a fast, or provides " professional supervision " during the

fast. Apart from that, you will have to go " on faith " , just as you have to

do about swimming in the ocean or turning the TV off being good for you. You

don't make anyone richer by doing either of those.

 

<<< Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and the various

cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially HIGH carb diets, but

very low calorie diets. These are the very conditions that CAUSE the body

to attack lean body protein to make up a glucose deficiency for the brain,

and the ketosis process is being blocked because of the carb intake. >>>

 

No doubt the doctors have been studying the effects of these trendy forms of

fasting and just assumed that a water fast must be that much worse.

 

<<< Yet when you read the literature on juice fasting and cleanses, they

claim the same advantages of water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger,

allowing the body to heal itself, etc. but with gentler " healing crises "

from release of toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the

absolute bed rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. >>>

 

What do you think about the supposed need to stay in bed in order for a

water fast to work? And what would you think of Allen Cott's contrasting

view that you should walk long distance every day of a water fast? Do you

think activity " expedites " the fast as he says it does, or does it impede

the detox effect?

 

<<< The water only fasting literature about why it works has been around for

a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing people simply co-opted

what the water only practitioners are saying, to suit their purposes,

without actually having scientific proof? >>>

 

Someone has said that the environment changed so that water fasting, once

safe, is now dangerous. Another made a related claim that you can't safely

fast without being in a pristine setting far from pollution, thereby cutting

off the common folk from the benefit of fasting. What do you think of this?

 

Billy

[Guest guest]

Kefir, Once again we DISAGREE!! The fat CAN NOT and DOES NOT get converted to GLUCOSE. It gets converted to energy with KETONES as a byproduct!! Finally we've pin pointed the source of OUR misunderstandings!! It's the PROTEIN that can be converted to glucose, NOT the fat. And that's the whole point of this discussion! Converting protein to glucose is UNDESIRABLE. Converting fat to energy and KETONES is DESIRABLE. because the brain can use the KETONES as fuel, and thus SPARE the PROTEINS. Sorry to spell it out in such graphic terms, but I don't know how else to make the points! I'm not a medical person, so if someone else wants to correct my perhaps oversimplified explanation, please chime in. I do think it's critical to understand these points, because they're critical to

understanding the various kinds of fasting and dieting. Getting rid of excess fat is what the overweight person is usually hung up on, and getting rid of the toxins in the fat is what the faster is primarily concerned with. When BOTH are accoumplished everybody wins, and the overweight person would have more motivation to succeed than just losing the weight itself. The overweight person probably got that way by becoming addicted to fat, refined sugar, salt, and all the chemical flavor enhancers in processed food. If they don't get that, then I think that's why they eventually gain all their weight back, just like other addicts go back to the things they're addicted to. Frankkefir_king <kefir_king wrote: frank..thanks..when the glycogen store runs out...the fat in the body

is converted to glucose for energy..so you are running of your fat store..that is the whole purpose of the aitken diet...i actually went on it for 6 months..you do loose lots of weight... , Frank Berveiler <frankshtn wrote:>> Kefir,> > With all due respect, I think you're off base in your understanding of what ketosis is.> > When you first start either a water only fast OR the Atkins diet, even though, for all intent and purpose, you eliminate carbs from your DIET, there are still carbs stored in your body. The carbs are stored as glycogen. That source of carbs is normally used up in something like 1-3 days. > > The body is designed to give prioity to the brain for both oxygen and nutrition. Normal

nutrition for the brain is glucose. The alternate fuel for the brain is ketones. The brain evidently works EQUALLY well on EITHER FUEL!! Fortunately, the body quickly switches over to ketones. That's because the body is also designed to heal itself, both in humans and in animals. Ketosis is a condition designed for healing. That's why animals instictivly "fast" when they don't feel good. But modern medical ideas have changed things for humans who used to also fast for healing, but now do almost the opposite. They look to their doctors for "magic pills" to make them well, and continue with their "SAD" (standard American diets) which actually do more harm than good when it comes to healing. BUT...as long as the body has a CONTINUING source of carbs besides/in addition to the glycogen, ketosis won't occur.> > Some detoxing

will still take place on a juice fast, but only because it gives the body excess energy (formerly devoted to digestion) to devote to strengthening the immune system. But the calories from the juice will reduce the amount of fat, and toxins burned to maintain the body's total energy requirements, compared to the ZERO calorie intake of a water only fast. That's why I think fasts less than 3 days are of little value, because little to no ketosis occurs.> > I don't want to beat a dead horse to death on this issue. We're all in agreement on most things here, just in need of clarrifying some educational misunderstandings on some details.> > We probably should move on to topics where we agree. I think we agree on giving prioriy to natural healing, and preventing illness from occurring in the first

place.> > Frank> > kefir_king <kefir_king wrote:> Frank> There is something wrong in this argument. Ketosis only happens if > you starve the body out of Carbs..It happend to me..I was so weak..i > was falling over in the Gym...When Ketosis happens..that is when your > body attacks and disolves muscle proteins...because there is no > Glycogen..Carbs are the instrument used to regulate the Glycogen > store, so that you have enough energy for daily actvity and not more > which will build up to fat..the Key is to control Carb intake ..not > TOO Much nor Too little...> , Frank Berveiler > <frankshtn@> wrote:> >> > Kefir,> > > > No I'm NOT confusing fasting and weight loss!!!!!>

> > > I was referring to the two obvious cases where ketosis is known > to occur because of the lack of carb intake. The fact that the one > case is a weight loss diet, and the other> > a cleansing and healing fast, is just the way it is.> > > > My concern has strictly to do with HIGH carb intake, that tries > to make the same claims as protocols with zero or very low carb > intakes.> > > > I'm asking how you can have it both ways? I understand the part > about the juices being very easy to process in the body. But they're > STILL CARBS. And I understand that if carbs are present, ketosis > doesn't happen. Without ketosis, and with very low total calories, > the body will attack muscle (protein) to produce the glucose the >

brain MUST HAVE.> > > > I guess I'm wondering if there's some non scientific quackery > going on in the juice fasting and cleansing literature. Where's the > PROOF?? I also KNOW juice is good strictly from a nutritional stand > point whether it also provides safe detoxing and cleansing or not.> > > > I hope this clarrifies my concern.> > > > Frank> > > > > > > > kefir_king <kefir_king@> wrote:> > Frank...I think you are confusing two things...Weight Loss and > > Fasting..The objective of Fasting is not necessarily weight > loss..it > > is to allow the body to heal through reducing exogenous metabolism > to > > a very simpe

process...fasting and healing are like a reversible > > equilibrium reaction. The process of cellular and tissue healing > > accelerates when the intake of substances is reduced to a > > minimum..and the toxins intake stopped..> > > > Vegtable Juice has essentialy one main factor...it is a highly > > concentrated BioActive Liquid, rich not only in Enzymes, but also > > Bioflavinoids and anti oxidents. It is so solube, that it requires > > very little digestion and is absorbed relatively easily.> > The level of concentration of Bioflavinoids and anit oxidants is > > extremely high in vegtable juices. > > > > Lets take carrots for example. Carrots have approx 200 ug beta > > carotene/gm. If you eat a raw carrot, that is 20 mg of beta > carotene.> > Eating a raw carrot, you only absorb 1% of the beta carotene. so >

that > > is 2 mg of BC. If you juice it , you absorb 90% of the beta > carotene, > > that is 18 mg beta carotene. That is 28800 IU Beta Carotene. Now, > > only 10% of Beta Carotene in the Body is converted to Vitamin A. So > > that means your carrot raw will give you only :> > > > 1 Raw Carrot 2 mg BC---> 3200 IU Beta Carotene--->320 IU Vit A> > 1 Raw Carrot Juiced 18 mg BC---> 28800 IU BC----> 2880 IU Vit A> > > > You need 2 Juiced Raw carrots to give you 6000 IU Vit A which is > the > > RDA.> > You need to eat 20 Raw Carrots to give you the same 6000 IU Vit A.> > I think that puts it in perspective...plus you are getting all the > > enzymes in the rich Juice and the Bioflav...and this is only a > > Carrot...what about a Beet..> > So I can say that we are getting a 10x more concentrated and

> > BioActive liquid from the Juice then from the Raw Carrots and > > beets...:-). It does feel that way when you drink it..> > > > , Frank Berveiler > > <frankshtn@> wrote:> > >> > > Over my life time I've done a lot of research on low carb diets > > like Atkins (and even Stillman, the precursor to Atkins) and > followed > > these otherwise "harmful" diets for the dramatic weight loss > results > > I wanted (before I became aware of how otherwise harmful they were > > regarding nutrition). More recently I've bought and read every > book > > I could find on water only fasting, and have put the info into > > practice many times.> > > > > > At the risk of insulting people's intelligence, I'll simply

> > state that both of the above-mentioned approaches DEPEND on ketosis > > to do what they do. Ketosis enables the body, in the absence of > > carbohydrate intake, to supply the brain with ketones from > metabolism > > of endogenous and exogenous materials in the body, instead of the > > glucose it normally uses. Fortunately, the brain evidently does > just > > fine on ketones. Because of this marvelous flexibility the overall > > body metabolism becomes "protein sparing" rather than attacking > lean > > body mass to convert protein into glucose to supply the brain. All > > this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken the > information > > on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back it > up. > > It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition.

> Another > > positive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of > > hunger while it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of > ketosis > > may be, they seem to be outweighed> > > by the positives.> > > > > > Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and > the > > various cleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially > HIGH > > carb diets, but very low calorie diets. These are the very > > conditions that CAUSE the body to attack lean body protein to make > up > > a glucose deficiency for the brain, and the ketosis process is > being > > blocked because of the carb intake. Yet when you read the > literature > > on juice fasting and cleanses, they claim the same advantages of > >

water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger, allowing the body to > > heal itself, etc. but with gentler "healing crises" from release of > > toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require the absolute > bed > > rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. I can > see > > where they virually free the body of the enormous energy > requirements > > for digestion, and make that energy available for detoxing.> > > > > > But, I don't see how you can have it both ways, i.e.the > benefits > > of ketosis by doing exactly the opposite of what brings on the > > ketosis in the first place???????> > > > > > I can rationalize the lack of hunger aspect, by assuming any > low > > fat combined with low sodium diet will kill

appetite because fat > and > > salt are both appetite stimulators that actually lead > to "addiction".> > > > > > The water only fasting literature about why it works has been > > around for a long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing > people > > simply co-opted what the water only practitioners are saying, to > suit > > their purposes, without actually having scientific proof?> > > > > > This point has kept me from going any where near juice fasting > > and cleanses until recently. I still have uneasy concerns because > of > > the "protein sparing" or not issue.> > > > > > Comments?> > > > > > Frank> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > New Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC > > and save big.> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Billy, You've given great answers, and raised great questions. I've pondered the same things. There surely is a profit motive in advising absolute rest and supervision while water only fasting. Paul Bragg is another one besides Cott who obviously didn't to the need for absolute rest while fasting. Recall his story in THE MIRACLE OF FASTING about competing with elite athletes in a hike across the desert, while in the midst of a fast.I'd have to refresh my memory on the details of that hike, but I do recall they defy credibilty if one buys the asbolute rest idea. But this is only after he'd fasted many times on his own recommended schedule of weekly 24-36 hour fasts and four 7-10 day fasts per year. One thing that gives Bragg credibiility versus the fast supervising doctors is that he did walk the walk. He died at age 97, but not of natural

causes. He died in a body surfing acciendent in Hawaii. When I did my only 15 day water only fast, I not only exercised, but tried to use Dr Joel Fuhrman's advice on breaking the fast. I ended up with serious constipation after breaking the fast, and rapid regain of weight. I just assumed that I didn't break the fast properly, and attributed it to not having supervision. I did get my allopathic doc to order some blood work, 10 days into the fast. He was concerned about dehydration and mineral loss. The test results did show some dehydration and mineral loss, but he never showed me any concern about it. I'd like to think widespread adoption of fasting will some day eliminate our "health care crisis". But as with finding altenative forms of energy to eliminate fossil fuel depepndency, the health care crisis will require new forms of profit motive before they replace the

mess we've got now. So I don't know what to think about exercising or not, while water only fasting. I guess I'll have to be my own guinea pig, because I don't have the time or resources to check into a fasting clinic for a couple of months, or even become an intern at Tanglewood for four months to get the fasting supervision, education, and even make some money. I'm presently buying the idea that the bed rest enables the body to concentrate all it's energy to detoxing rather than expending it on exercise. Anyhow, I think I'm tentagtively going to try to be conservative by taking over the counter herbal cleansing formulas before doing my next clease (probably Schulze, or a Sculze/Master Cleanse hybrid before attempting a long term (i.e. all the way to the "starvation point" fast), or until I reach an optimum BP, and/or achieve some other benefits attributable to fasting rather than allopathic

treatment. The fact that I'm doing this in spite of very negative prejudices from family and friends makes it even harder. I'll exercise while doing the cleanses, and rest while doing the fasting. But I won't be supervised. I'll rely on the cleanses to sufficiently detox myself to a point where extended water only fasts will surely be safe. Frank Billy at Comcast <billygard wrote: <<< All this seems very logical to me, even though I've taken theinformation on faith, and've never seen any scientific references to back itup. It just seems to be common knowledge because of repetition. Anotherpositive characteristic of being in ketosis is the complete lack of hungerwhile it's working. Whatever the negative aspects of ketosis

may be, theyseem to be outweighedby the positives. >>>The only way anyone will provide you scientific evidence supporting fastingis if there is money in it. So far, count on what little pro-fasting scienceto come from those who have a formula that protects the lining of thestomach during a fast, or provides "professional supervision" during thefast. Apart from that, you will have to go "on faith", just as you have todo about swimming in the ocean or turning the TV off being good for you. Youdon't make anyone richer by doing either of those.<<< Based on the above, I'm very concerned about juice fasts and the variouscleanses like the Master Cleanser, that are essentially HIGH carb diets, butvery low calorie diets. These are the very conditions that CAUSE the bodyto attack lean body protein to make up a glucose deficiency for the brain,and the ketosis process is being blocked because of

the carb intake. >>>No doubt the doctors have been studying the effects of these trendy forms offasting and just assumed that a water fast must be that much worse.<<< Yet when you read the literature on juice fasting and cleanses, theyclaim the same advantages of water only fasting, i.e. detoxing, no hunger,allowing the body to heal itself, etc. but with gentler "healing crises"from release of toxins versus the water only fast, and don't require theabsolute bed rest required for optimum results from water only fasting. >>>What do you think about the supposed need to stay in bed in order for awater fast to work? And what would you think of Allen Cott's contrastingview that you should walk long distance every day of a water fast? Do youthink activity "expedites" the fast as he says it does, or does it impedethe detox effect?<<< The water only fasting literature about why

it works has been around fora long time. Have the juice fasting and cleansing people simply co-optedwhat the water only practitioners are saying, to suit their purposes,without actually having scientific proof? >>>Someone has said that the environment changed so that water fasting, oncesafe, is now dangerous. Another made a related claim that you can't safelyfast without being in a pristine setting far from pollution, thereby cuttingoff the common folk from the benefit of fasting. What do you think of this?Billy

Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

[Guest guest]

, Frank Berveiler

<frankshtn wrote:

>

> Billy,

>

> You've given great answers, and raised great questions. I've

pondered the same things. There surely is a profit motive in

advising absolute rest and supervision while water only fasting.

>

> Paul Bragg is another one besides Cott who obviously didn't

to the need for absolute rest while fasting. Recall his

story in THE MIRACLE OF FASTING about competing with elite athletes in

a hike across the desert, while in the midst of a fast.

> I'd have to refresh my memory on the details of that hike, but I do

recall they defy credibilty if one buys the asbolute rest idea. But

this is only after he'd fasted many times on his own recommended

schedule of weekly 24-36 hour fasts and four 7-10 day fasts per year.

One thing that gives Bragg credibiility versus the fast supervising

doctors is that he did walk the walk. He died at age 97, but not of

natural causes. He died in a body surfing acciendent in Hawaii.

>

> When I did my only 15 day water only fast, I not only exercised,

but tried to use Dr Joel Fuhrman's advice on breaking the fast. I

ended up with serious constipation after breaking the fast, and rapid

regain of weight. I just assumed that I didn't break the fast

properly, and attributed it to not having supervision. I did get my

allopathic doc to order some blood work, 10 days into the fast. He

was concerned about dehydration and mineral loss. The test results

did show some dehydration and mineral loss, but he never showed me any

concern about it.

>

> I'd like to think widespread adoption of fasting will some day

eliminate our " health care crisis " . But as with finding altenative

forms of energy to eliminate fossil fuel depepndency, the health care

crisis will require new forms of profit motive before they replace the

mess we've got now.

>

> So I don't know what to think about exercising or not, while water

only fasting. I guess I'll have to be my own guinea pig, because I

don't have the time or resources to check into a fasting clinic for a

couple of months, or even become an intern at Tanglewood for four

months to get the fasting supervision, education, and even make some

money. I'm presently buying the idea that the bed rest enables the

body to concentrate all it's energy to detoxing rather than expending

it on exercise.

>

> Anyhow, I think I'm tentagtively going to try to be conservative

by taking over the counter herbal cleansing formulas before doing my

next clease (probably Schulze, or a Sculze/Master Cleanse hybrid

before attempting a long term (i.e. all the way to the " starvation

point " fast), or until I reach an optimum BP, and/or achieve some

other benefits attributable to fasting rather than allopathic

treatment. The fact that I'm doing this in spite of very negative

prejudices from family and friends makes it even harder. I'll

exercise while doing the cleanses, and rest while doing the fasting.

But I won't be supervised. I'll rely on the cleanses to sufficiently

detox myself to a point where extended water only fasts will surely be

safe.

>

> Frank

 

 

I would never use any products as water fasting produces all

the detoxing needed at the speed the body needs. A shorter fast

will start the process. Fasting in NH ( Natural hygiene) is for people

with serious health problems and absolute rest will speed the healing

process. A diet free of processed foods mostly raw fruits and

vegetables can make fasts easier. If you're essentially healthy

without serious problems Braggs way works just fine for the vast

majority. People with little reserves and a serious health problem

they are trying to heal should be supervised to get the length of

the fast and instruction on how to have a problem diet post fast to

not lose all the benefits of the fast. I went all mine alone as I

could not have afforded care at a retreat due to financial problems.

Had I not found Bragg- never would have done it. His way is fine.

I don't know why people waste money on these cleansers to push

the body with unnatural products that the body was never intended

to take. Not a fan of colonics or enemas either.

My reading and feeling is that fasts are not a stress to the

body but a great rest but the switching of gears and emptying of

the colon and getting into a comfortable non eating state in an

eating world causes some stress to some. Not to mention the wife

mother or relatives...

 

Mike

[Guest guest]

Mike, I definitely lean toward everything you said. However, I have tried other approaches than water only fasting, and none of them caused me any problems and all of them provided some benefit. The Nature's Secret Ultimate Cleanse in early 2004 enabled me to eliminate one of the three BP meds I was on, while I was still under the influence of a pill-pushing doctor who told me I'd have to take BP drugs the rest of my life, and I still had no clue that there was any alternative to what he was saying. I don't know where I'd be today if I hadn't stumbled across this "product" by accident. I did the cleanse for 2 months, while eating my then unhealthy diet at the same time. But the results of doing this cleanse was the starting point that ultimately enabled me to accomplish every thing I've accomplished since 2004. The next

significant thing was discovering for the first time, and specifically two groups. "bloodpressureline", and "hypertension". Through "bloodpressureline" I discovered THE RICE DIET. It enabled me the other remaining two BP drugs in December, 2004. I still don't need any BP meds. The "hypertension" group led me to discover there were much better ways of eating than the Rice Diet, and to my present approach of eating mainly raw vegetarian. From there, just by actively searching for other health-oriented , I discovered fasting, the Master Cleanser, and the Schulze cleanses. I've done all of them except the Schulze, which I've just learned about, and I've benefitted in one way or another from every one of them. Like you, I need to self-supervise my own water only fasts. I feel between early 2004 to the present, I've accomplished a

successively improving level of toxicity. Bragg was undoubtedly thoroughly detoxed over his long, physically active, and healthy lifetime. I think that's what enabled him to engage in all his strenuous physical activities, even in the midst of a fast. So I'm not going to be as dogmatic as you sound, regarding not doing anything but pure water only fasting, which we both agree is probably the gold standard of detoxing. With the negativity of my family situation, I'm going to try to do whatever is possible to do, since I can't do exactly what I want to do because of the interpersonal stress and friction it causes. Alan Goldhamer and Doug Lisle's book THE PLEASURE TRAP, gives advice on how to deal with uninformed, prejudiced critics of fasting, cleansing, and ph balanced eating. First, don't ever discuss what you're doing with them. It's totally

self-defeating, because of their prejudiced, uninformed opinions. If they know what you're doing and attack you because of it, simply say "It seems to work for me" and drop the subject. Never try to persuade them to try what you're doing. I've learned these lessons the hard way. Remember, people who join groups like this one are a tiny minority of the total population. We can develop a "preaching to the choir" mentality in a group like this one, and make the false assumption that everyone outside this group is equally receptive to our suggestions and advice. Mike, here's one question I have for you. How do you think fasting empties the colon? When I fasted for 15 days I never had a single BM. Does the fasting liquify everything in the colon so it can then be eliminated elsewhere? I don't think so. So I think colon cleansing has to be a separate step in addition to

fasting. I also agree with the natural hygienists who don't believe in colonics or enemas. When I did the Master Cleanser I could both see and feel that my colon, and entire GI tract was indeed being cleaned out. Frank violinmike2002 <violinmike2002 wrote: I would never use any products as water fasting produces all the detoxing needed at the speed the body needs. A shorter fast will start the process. Fasting in NH ( Natural hygiene) is for peoplewith serious health problems and absolute rest will speed the healingprocess. A diet free of processed foods mostly raw fruits andvegetables can make fasts easier. If you're essentially healthy without serious problems Braggs way works just fine for the vastmajority. People with little reserves and

a serious health problemthey are trying to heal should be supervised to get the length of the fast and instruction on how to have a problem diet post fast to not lose all the benefits of the fast. I went all mine alone as I could not have afforded care at a retreat due to financial problems.Had I not found Bragg- never would have done it. His way is fine.I don't know why people waste money on these cleansers to push the body with unnatural products that the body was never intendedto take. Not a fan of colonics or enemas either. My reading and feeling is that fasts are not a stress to thebody but a great rest but the switching of gears and emptying of the colon and getting into a comfortable non eating state in an eating world causes some stress to some. Not to mention the wifemother or

relatives... Mike