Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 Hello everyone My name is Chrisy Shamblin I prefer to be called Raven Iam 24 yrs old live in charlotte nc with my life partner Arlaine Rockey(37yr) and our two children; Marissa who is 6 and Justin is 3.Okay to the point. My mother who is 43 her name is Mary Shamblin and lives in Point Pleasant, Wv, has MS when she was my age she was having problems and the docs told her it was in her head, so now she has MS at 43 because they could see it finally on the MRI.So anyways, I was just hospitalized few weeks ago due to the fact I was having symtoms of MS they ran tests on me then discharged me told me it was all in my head they said it was due to my depression and anxiety well ive been the happiest and calmiest in the last year since i was born and I find it hard to belive when I can't walk that its in my head when i cant sleep cause my legs are tingling its in my head or when im standing in a public place and a stranger ask me if I know that my neck is jerking i cant belive that its in my head I have tons of problems way to many to go thru hear..like not being able to feed myself at times, taking my little grrls meds , severe fatigue, falling easy on days i can walk cause my bodyparts dont want to listen to what my head tells them to do waking up at night to thinking my arms are gone because i cant feel them, or my face is numb and i taste blood in my mouth from where i was having tremors and bite my tounge and to think i wouldnt known if i didnot see the blood on my finger or the fact that my babies see me walk and say mommys walking today only to know soon ill be in the bed upstairs in pain,or trying to feed my kids breakfast and having to ask them to help cause i cant open things, okay ill stop now they say im crazy its in my head and refuse to give me pain meds,Im seeing a holistic doc and he is telling me its ms.Dont know where to turn at this point. I was wondering if any of you out there have urinary troubles with MS? I saw uroligist today <still in the phase of getting dx > and test showed bladder is not empting right - its only emptying 1/3 of the way! Now I need to check out my kidneys. He put me on antibiotics for two months while they run tests but he thinks its part of the first stages of MS, or at least a warning light that I have MS. He told me docs wont dx MS until they have lesions they can see..sigh..told it could take a while for them to show up ahhh...he started talking to me <u'll have to forgive me I cant spell> about learning how to catherize myself... is there anyone out there who can help me ...I'm scared hanging by a shoe string, Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 13, 1999 Report Share Posted September 13, 1999 Raven, I don't know anything about MS or what the symptoms are or any of that, but I do recognise a sister in distress. All I can do is send you energy and pray. Sometimes it is a comfort to know you are not alone. Blessings.....Song Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 1999 Report Share Posted November 19, 1999 Hi Amanda,Greg, and Geovani, I too attended a 5 Element school in Maryland, and did my first clinical work at Leamington Spa. Due to the National exam and my own curiosity to study TCM I use both in my practice. I do agree with Amanda that TCM does not address spirt level the same way 5 Element does. I have been treated by accomplished practitioners of both Traditionals and the diagnostic approaches and intentions are different. Yet, I have seen old Chinese doctors get to the deeper issues by paying very close attention to the pulses, signs of imbalance the patient is presenting and TRULY IDENTIFYING the organ syndrome that is out of balance. We can't really know how to treat a person or a condition until it is presented to us through the living example of the chi of the person sitting in front of us.....we study lots of theory. that helps to point us in a general direction...I just think there is a danger if we become too rote in our treatment protocols. The whole discussion about shoulder pain for instance....From a 5 Element prespective, the causative factor or " constitutional/core " energetic of the person is the diagnostic focus (you could say), following that, if you have a " Fire Type " with shoulder pain, after clearing the deeper blocks (often done in the first treatment) if I were to then treat on a local level I would use the TW, SI, UB 14, 15 etc. as selected points in the local and distal areas to treat the problem. This would be keeping within the " energetic " of the patient, rather than a cookbook approach of LI,TW,GB etc. Does this make sense?? I think your questions, Geovani are right on!! You've got it...the bigger picture can't be overlooked. This has been something I've learned over the years and though my patients. I had a patient come to me a year ago after being in a car accident. She had pain everywhere. She has also suffered from asthma since childhood. It's is just coincidence? that she is a Metal (Lung, Large Intestine) type in the 5 Element model. She also has alot of Spleen damp and deficient Kidney Yin. So in treating her pain, I always go back to the big picture and try to keep her in balance on a systemic level. She shared a story with me of two years prior when she was treated for a frozen shoulder and her asthma got so bad she went to the emergency room. Her practitioner was so focused on her shoulder pain (which did get better) but in my mind she was also thrown out of balance on a deeper level. Acupuncture is wholistic medicine and I know it is so easy to get seduced into fixing the problem and ignoring the whole person. There are deeper issues in all pain and illness, and even if we aren't trained or comfortable with dealing with the deeper issues if we are truly attentive to our client rather than caught up in our technique, amazing results can occur. Just thought I'd share my perspective. Janine acupuncture [acupuncture ] Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:23 AM acupuncture acupuncture Digest Number 109 There are 12 messages in this issue. Topics in today's digest: 1. Re: Cun Ruler. " geovani " <inandor 2. Re: re aggravated shoulder pain " geovani " <inandor 3. questions re acup studies " murray " <murrayc 4. The wholistic approuche. " geovani " <inandor 5. Re: questions re acup studies " geovani " <inandor 6. dull needles Greg Dember <dember 7. Re: dull needles " BoumBoum " <boum.boum 8. Re: dull needles Greg Dember <dember 9. Re: dull needles " BoumBoum " <boum.boum 10. Re: dull needles " BoumBoum " <boum.boum 11. TCM/5-E " geovani " <inandor 12. Re: dull needles Rick Kramer <kramer __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 1 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:34:09 -0200 " geovani " <inandor Re: Cun Ruler. " Marty Rickard " <martyr Good Point!! > the trouble with elastic is that how do you put a dot on or your finger on > the point? > As soon as you try, sproooiiinggg, the elastic is history. My friend had devised a rather cunning (contorted?) method of doing this involving 2 fingers and a thumb, but it could prove to be an issue in the short term. ;-) MR geovani: Seems a good ideia,...to get used to the " general " position of the points. But how it works exactly? You probably take to references - like the pulse and elbow - and place the proper amount of cuns in the interval with an elastic ruler. Nice. I would hold one end with the little finger of one hand on the ruller, and use the thumb of that same hand as the marker. Should work with moust of the points. And as it is being pointed out, this would be good to get the initial general positioning of the points. __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 2 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:43:25 -0200 " geovani " <inandor Re: re aggravated shoulder pain " murray " <murrayc When a problem gets more painful after a treatment, there a several reasons for this, in relation to the shoulder pain I'll deal with the most common reason, and that is there is a blockage of energy & or blood in the area very stagnant energy ) and if you put distal points in first it will have the affect of sending extra energy to the area to clear the blockage, but if the blockage is old, the extra energy backs up where the blockage is and this will sometimes cause more pain until it clears, it often takes quite a lot of shifting trying to clear the blockage, but it will eventually clear usually within 24 hours. Even so the pain won't last and the result will still be a positive one, to sum it up put in local points first and distal points second. If its an old problem or injury insert local needles in first to clear the area, wait a couple of minutes then put in the distal points appropriate to the problem, this will prevent the pain from getting worse, there are other reasons that this may occur but as I said this is the most common. This is an old acupuncture law that applies to headaches particularly migraines, always put local point in first to disperse the blockage then distal points second. hope this is of help to someone. cheers Murray. geovani: Interesting, thx. Another point. In case of small calcifications (p. ex. in the shoulder joint), could it be possible that with the reestablishment of the proper QI equilibrium, the solid deposits would dissolve and disapear? Or no such thing is possible? Because if this is not possible, then i would think that acupuncture would not deal with such situation - except as a paliative to diminuish pain (?) __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 3 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:17:35 +1100 " murray " <murrayc questions re acup studies Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 4 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:11:54 -0200 " geovani " <inandor The wholistic approuche. geovani: Well.....this patient comes in complaining about those shoulder pains. So, as Murray expounded it, one maybe should start with the local points, and only after a few minutes go for the distal ones. But something must be further brought out here.... Is the " real desiese " shoulder pains? Would it be correct to say that the " nature " of this deseise is a desequilibrium of QI at the shoulder level? I don't think so...In an absolute wholistic point of wiew there is only one desiese: the desequilibrium of the " vital energy " , and the local, acute simptoms, are episodical manifestations of the one main deseise. I am having dificulties to bring this down to an acupuncturist perspective, yet. So, in our particular case, the shoulder patient, desregarding other issues but the genuine scientific approuche to the situation, I would think that only a part of the practicioners attention should be focused on the shoulder pain itself. So we are desregarding the fact that this person may be sufering strong pains (requiring some paliative actions), desregarding the fact that if we don't deal with those shoulders fast, the patient will probably abandon treatment (so one must explain to him the situation). The main part of the attention will be directed in trying to find out the " real " " deep " nature of the desequilibrium of energy - the real nature of the sickness. Unfortunatly I must stop here, because my perspective about acupuncture as one whole entity is lacking. I am still dealing with fragments, but deep inside I know that one day I will have to put these fragments toghether into one unit, in orther to be able to deal with the real source of QI desequilibrium. For instance.... and this is just a guess in form a question....if the shoulder pain is related to the bones and articulations, why not start with GB 11 - the general point of bones? Or why not start with a point that deals with the general desequibrium of Yin/Yang? In a first fast wiew on the subject (wholistic acup.) I would think that if such a point exists (general Yin/Yang), why not puncture it in any and all circumstances? So....what are your thoughts concerning the wholistic approuche in acup.? If I eventualy succeed in stoping that local pain, that local disorder, will not the real disorder continue? Will it not blow up in some other part - maybe in some more vital organ then before? I defenitly feel that to deal with the localised disorder exclusively, is not a genuine healing procedure.... __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 5 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:21:36 -0200 " geovani " <inandor Re: questions re acup studies " murray " <murrayc Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray geovani: LOL LOL Hey, Murray...we seemed to have the same concerns when writing our posts (wholistic....and, questions re......) at the same time. I honestly beleive that if points are chosen having only the local, or accute disorder in mind, some frustration will certainly be born. Because it is not very effective to put a patch in a small hole in an attempt to stop the leaking, if the realy big hole is left untouched... __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 6 Wed, 17 Nov 99 10:31:31 -0800 Greg Dember <dember dull needles >What I meant is that needles lose their sharpness, are less able to >penetrate cleanly after using particular points. I notice this when I've >used a point with particularly strong action, for example a strong spirit >point that will be important for the patient, or a strong command >point.(I'm a practitioner of 11 years experience) > >Amanda I thought this was what you might have meant, rather then the qi sensation being dull. How interesting! In the US, as far as I know, few of us re-use needles. I never have. So that's interesting-- you find that the needle is worn down faster after a powerful qi connection. Greg __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 7 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:04:19 -0000 " BoumBoum " <boum.boum Re: dull needles I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for two or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment approach? Amanda __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 8 Wed, 17 Nov 99 15:10:17 -0800 Greg Dember <dember Re: dull needles >I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? >Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for two >or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment >approach? It's a policy thing.... but you know what? Maybe this is a TCM vs. 5-E thing. Are you a 5-E practitioner? Am I right that you sometimes use very brief insertion times, with a sequence of insertions? If that is the case, it would make sense to reuse a needle a few times on the same patient within the same treatment. In my practice (I'm electic grounded in TCM) I almost always leave the needles in for 15-30 minutes, then take them all out at once. So I wouldn't be re-using a needle within one session. By the way.... I respect Five Element Acupuncture, and I even have friends who are of that persuasion, but sometimes it bugs me when 5-E practitioners give out the impression that TCM acupuncturists don't base their treatments on the Five Elements. Or that we don't treat emotional issues. Greg Dember __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 9 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:38:36 -0000 " BoumBoum " <boum.boum Re: dull needles Hi Greg yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. this list is getting interesting! Regards amanda __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 10 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:42:47 -0000 " BoumBoum " <boum.boum Re: dull needles oops, just found your second paragraph. I agree that TCM effectively addresses emotional issues - I think that the Five Element elitism stems from an old history, personality politics, stuff best forgotten. That said, my TCM training never took me to the spirit of points in the way that Five Element did, and I'm glad of my training at Leamington for that above all else. Amanda __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 11 Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:27:48 -0200 " geovani " <inandor TCM/5-E TCM and 5-E. Greg and Amanda.... I would be very glad if you could give a brief clarification in this two different approuches....I feel that this might take us into the core of some important issues (even if it is a bit repetitive, please). I think I can handle some details awlready... :^) geovani __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 12 Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:32:07 +0200 Rick Kramer <kramer Re: dull needles This can be dangerous as muscle fibers can be caught on the needle. Best to close ones eyes and imagine either sucking the bad qi out all the while pumping ever so slightly the needle in an outward direction - for tonification, do the exact opposite. It works wonderfully without any danger. BoumBoum wrote: > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > > Hi Greg > > yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my > training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate > flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in > the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. > -- ************************************************************ Dr. Rick Kramer kramer List Moderator Projectives List ++972-3-570-7245 ISRAEL --------------------------- __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 1999 Report Share Posted November 20, 1999 " Janine Wrzesniewski " <Janine Hi Amanda,Greg, and Geovani, I too attended a 5 Element school in Maryland, and did my first clinical work at Leamington Spa. Due to the National exam and my own curiosity to study TCM I use both in my practice. I do agree with Amanda that TCM does not address spirt level the same way 5 Element does. I have been treated by accomplished practitioners of both Traditionals and the diagnostic approaches and intentions are different. Yet, I have seen old Chinese doctors get to the deeper issues by paying very close attention to the pulses, signs of imbalance the patient is presenting and TRULY IDENTIFYING the organ syndrome that is out of balance. We can't really know how to treat a person or a condition until it is presented to us through the living example of the chi of the person sitting in front of us.....we study lots of theory. that helps to point us in a general direction...I just think there is a danger if we become too rote in our treatment protocols. The whole discussion about shoulder pain for instance....From a 5 Element prespective, the causative factor or " constitutional/core " energetic of the person is the diagnostic focus (you could say), following that, if you have a " Fire Type " with shoulder pain, after clearing the deeper blocks (often done in the first treatment) if I were to then treat on a local level I would use the TW, SI, UB 14, 15 etc. as selected points in the local and distal areas to treat the problem. This would be keeping within the " energetic " of the patient, rather than a cookbook approach of LI,TW,GB etc. Does this make sense?? I think your questions, Geovani are right on!! You've got it...the bigger picture can't be overlooked. This has been something I've learned over the years and though my patients. I had a patient come to me a year ago after being in a car accident. She had pain everywhere. She has also suffered from asthma since childhood. It's is just coincidence? that she is a Metal (Lung, Large Intestine) type in the 5 Element model. She also has alot of Spleen damp and deficient Kidney Yin. So in treating her pain, I always go back to the big picture and try to keep her in balance on a systemic level. She shared a story with me of two years prior when she was treated for a frozen shoulder and her asthma got so bad she went to the emergency room. Her practitioner was so focused on her shoulder pain (which did get better) but in my mind she was also thrown out of balance on a deeper level. Acupuncture is wholistic medicine and I know it is so easy to get seduced into fixing the problem and ignoring the whole person. There are deeper issues in all pain and illness, and even if we aren't trained or comfortable with dealing with the deeper issues if we are truly attentive to our client rather than caught up in our technique, amazing results can occur. Just thought I'd share my perspective. Janine geovani:Thanks, Janine. To me, personaly, this kind of comentary is a gold mine! Yes, to deal with a local, acute manifestation, I feel one must keep in mind that it is just an episode of a deeper disbalance. In homeopathy this is cristal clear, and is perceviable very easily. You treat a local acute sindrome with low dinamisations, and the patient will present some other agravation - sometimes worth then the orginal one. Now you are presenting the same picture in the acup. clinic!! Of course, we are dealing with the same energy. Now, I wonder if you could answer the following question: To wich extent you can do harm to a healthy individual by puncturing him?? This interest me allot. You see, one could say that no big harm can be done to a healthy person by giving him homeopathic remedy. You may cause some temporary alteration....then the remedy is halted, and the person will regain is perfect health. The few exeptions are based in too many repetitions, with highly dinamised remedys, that are not interrupted as soon as the person begins to fall of balance, besides the indirect harm of a frightened individual that seeks alophatic treatment. So I am very much interested in order to deepen my understanding, in the nature of phisiologycal, psichologycal or " spiritual " alterations one may provoque to a relatively healthy person through acupuncture. And i am concerned with these alterations regarding it's intensity, time modality (for how long) and other particularities. You see, I am begining to understand acup. as an interference in the inner enrgetic field of man. So in this sense it could be seen as a " homeopathic " interference.....in the sense that by puncturing on a canal I am in fact provoquing a momentary " aggravation " , a momentary over-sensibilisation. After all the acupunturist is looking for the " right points " , or from an homeophatic point of wiew, is looking for the right action that will provoque a temporary overlaping between the " natural " desiese, and the " artificial " sensibilisation with the needles. Just some stray thoughts..... PS - I wouldn't mind if someone had the pacience to give a condensed lecture on both approuches to ignorant but well intentioned brazilian " will be " acupunturist - The TMC and 5E. Persons are classified as one of the 5 elements.......i have understood this far LOL LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 1999 Report Share Posted November 20, 1999 Adriana: Janine, I am very satisfy with your words. The most important thing to know in healing is who is in front of us and then what he or she needs to be better in a whoslistic way and/or in a specific suffering. This is the fundament of treatment of root and manifestation and their different combinations in each case ( treats only the root or only the manifestation or first one then other or both together). Janine Wrzesniewski wrote: > " Janine Wrzesniewski " <Janine > > Hi Amanda,Greg, and Geovani, > > I too attended a 5 Element school in Maryland, and did my first clinical > work at Leamington Spa. Due to the National exam and my own curiosity to > study TCM I use both in my practice. I do agree with Amanda that TCM does > not address spirt level the same way 5 Element does. I have been treated by > accomplished practitioners of both Traditionals and the diagnostic > approaches and intentions are different. Yet, I have seen old Chinese > doctors get to the deeper issues by paying very close attention to the > pulses, signs of imbalance the patient is presenting and TRULY IDENTIFYING > the organ syndrome that is out of balance. We can't really know how to > treat a person or a condition until it is presented to us through the living > example of the chi of the person sitting in front of us.....we study lots of > theory. that helps to point us in a general direction...I just think there > is a danger if we become too rote in our treatment protocols. > The whole discussion about shoulder pain for instance....From a 5 Element > prespective, the causative factor or " constitutional/core " energetic of the > person is the diagnostic focus (you could say), following that, if you have > a " Fire Type " with shoulder pain, after clearing the deeper blocks (often > done in the first treatment) if I were to then treat on a local level I > would use the TW, SI, UB 14, 15 etc. as selected points in the local and > distal areas to treat the problem. This would be keeping within the > " energetic " of the patient, rather than a cookbook approach of LI,TW,GB etc. > Does this make sense?? I think your questions, Geovani are right on!! > You've got it...the bigger picture can't be overlooked. This has been > something I've learned over the years and though my patients. I had a > patient come to me a year ago after being in a car accident. She had pain > everywhere. She has also suffered from asthma since childhood. It's is > just coincidence? that she is a Metal (Lung, Large Intestine) type in the 5 > Element model. She also has alot of Spleen damp and deficient Kidney Yin. > So in treating her pain, I always go back to the big picture and try to keep > her in balance on a systemic level. She shared a story with me of two years > prior when she was treated for a frozen shoulder and her asthma got so bad > she went to the emergency room. Her practitioner was so focused on her > shoulder pain (which did get better) but in my mind she was also thrown out > of balance on a deeper level. Acupuncture is wholistic medicine and I know > it is so easy to get seduced into fixing the problem and ignoring the whole > person. There are deeper issues in all pain and illness, and even if we > aren't trained or comfortable with dealing with the deeper issues if we are > truly attentive to our client rather than caught up in our technique, > amazing results can occur. Just thought I'd share my perspective. > > Janine > > > acupuncture [acupuncture ] > Thursday, November 18, 1999 1:23 AM > acupuncture > acupuncture Digest Number 109 > > There are 12 messages in this issue. > > Topics in today's digest: > > 1. Re: Cun Ruler. > " geovani " <inandor > 2. Re: re aggravated shoulder pain > " geovani " <inandor > 3. questions re acup studies > " murray " <murrayc > 4. The wholistic approuche. > " geovani " <inandor > 5. Re: questions re acup studies > " geovani " <inandor > 6. dull needles > Greg Dember <dember > 7. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 8. Re: dull needles > Greg Dember <dember > 9. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 10. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 11. TCM/5-E > " geovani " <inandor > 12. Re: dull needles > Rick Kramer <kramer > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 1 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:34:09 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor > Re: Cun Ruler. > > " Marty Rickard " <martyr > > Good Point!! > > > the trouble with elastic is that how do you put a dot on or your finger on > > the point? > > As soon as you try, sproooiiinggg, the elastic is history. > > My friend had devised a rather cunning (contorted?) method of doing this > involving 2 fingers and a thumb, but it could prove to be an issue in the > short term. > > ;-) > > MR > > geovani: Seems a good ideia,...to get used to the " general " > position of the points. But how it works exactly? You probably > take to references - like the pulse and elbow - and place the > proper amount of cuns in the interval with an elastic ruler. Nice. > I would hold one end with the little finger of one hand on the > ruller, and use the thumb of that same hand as the marker. > Should work with moust of the points. And as it is being pointed out, > this would be good to get the initial general positioning of the points. > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 2 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:43:25 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor > Re: re aggravated shoulder pain > > " murray " <murrayc > > When a problem gets more painful after a treatment, there a several reasons > for this, in relation to the shoulder pain I'll deal with the most common > reason, and that is there is a blockage of energy & or blood in the area > very stagnant energy ) and if you put distal points in first it will have > the affect of sending extra energy to the area to clear the blockage, but if > the blockage is old, the extra energy backs up where the blockage is and > this > will sometimes cause more pain until it clears, it often takes quite a lot > of shifting trying to clear the blockage, but it will eventually clear > usually within 24 hours. Even so the pain won't last and the result will > still be a positive one, to sum it up put in local points first and distal > points second. > If its an old problem or injury insert local needles in first to clear the > area, wait a couple of minutes then put in the distal points appropriate to > the problem, this will prevent the pain from getting worse, there are other > reasons that this may occur but as I said this is the most common. This is > an old acupuncture law that applies to headaches particularly migraines, > always put local point in first to disperse the blockage then distal points > second. hope this is of help to someone. cheers Murray. > > geovani: Interesting, thx. Another point. In case of small > calcifications (p. ex. in the shoulder joint), could it be possible > that with the reestablishment of the proper QI equilibrium, > the solid deposits would dissolve and disapear? Or no such > thing is possible? Because if this is not possible, then i would > think that acupuncture would not deal with such situation - except > as a paliative to diminuish pain (?) > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 3 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:17:35 +1100 > " murray " <murrayc > questions re acup studies > > Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you > wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified > as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if > any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was > there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? > especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate > any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 4 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:11:54 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor > The wholistic approuche. > > geovani: Well.....this patient comes in complaining about those > shoulder pains. So, as Murray expounded it, one maybe should > start with the local points, and only after a few minutes go for the > distal ones. But something must be further brought out here.... > Is the " real desiese " shoulder pains? Would it be correct to say > that the " nature " of this deseise is a desequilibrium of QI at the > shoulder level? I don't think so...In an absolute wholistic point of > wiew there is only one desiese: the desequilibrium of the " vital > energy " , and the local, acute simptoms, are episodical manifestations > of the one main deseise. I am having dificulties to bring this down > to an acupuncturist perspective, yet. So, in our particular case, > the shoulder patient, desregarding other issues but the genuine > scientific approuche to the situation, I would think that only a part > of the practicioners attention should be focused on the shoulder pain > itself. > So we are desregarding the fact that this person may be sufering > strong pains (requiring some paliative actions), desregarding the fact > that if we don't deal with those shoulders fast, the patient will probably > abandon treatment (so one must explain to him the situation). > The main part of the attention will be directed in trying to find out > the " real " " deep " nature of the desequilibrium of energy - the real nature > of the sickness. > > Unfortunatly I must stop here, because my perspective about acupuncture > as one whole entity is lacking. I am still dealing with fragments, but deep > inside > I know that one day I will have to put these fragments toghether into one > unit, in > orther to be able to deal with the real source of QI desequilibrium. For > instance.... > and this is just a guess in form a question....if the shoulder pain is > related to the > bones and articulations, why not start with GB 11 - the general point of > bones? > Or why not start with a point that deals with the general desequibrium of > Yin/Yang? > In a first fast wiew on the subject (wholistic acup.) I would think that if > such a point > exists (general Yin/Yang), why not puncture it in any and all circumstances? > So....what are your thoughts concerning the wholistic approuche in acup.? > If I eventualy succeed in stoping that local pain, that local disorder, will > not > the real disorder continue? Will it not blow up in some other part - maybe > in some > more vital organ then before? I defenitly feel that to deal with the > localised disorder > exclusively, is not a genuine healing procedure.... > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 5 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:21:36 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor > Re: questions re acup studies > > " murray " <murrayc > > Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you > wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified > as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if > any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was > there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? > especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate > any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray > > geovani: LOL LOL Hey, Murray...we seemed to have the same concerns > when writing our posts (wholistic....and, questions re......) at the same > time. > I honestly beleive that if points are chosen having only the local, or > accute > disorder in mind, some frustration will certainly be born. Because it is > not > very effective to put a patch in a small hole in an attempt to stop the > leaking, > if the realy big hole is left untouched... > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 6 > Wed, 17 Nov 99 10:31:31 -0800 > Greg Dember <dember > dull needles > > >What I meant is that needles lose their sharpness, are less able to > >penetrate cleanly after using particular points. I notice this when I've > >used a point with particularly strong action, for example a strong spirit > >point that will be important for the patient, or a strong command > >point.(I'm a practitioner of 11 years experience) > > > >Amanda > > I thought this was what you might have meant, rather then the qi > sensation being dull. How interesting! In the US, as far as I know, few > of us re-use needles. I never have. So that's interesting-- you find > that the needle is worn down faster after a powerful qi connection. > > Greg > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 7 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:04:19 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > Re: dull needles > > I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? > Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for two > or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment > approach? > > Amanda > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 8 > Wed, 17 Nov 99 15:10:17 -0800 > Greg Dember <dember > Re: dull needles > > >I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? > >Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for > two > >or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment > >approach? > > It's a policy thing.... but you know what? Maybe this is a TCM vs. 5-E > thing. Are you a 5-E practitioner? Am I right that you sometimes use > very brief insertion times, with a sequence of insertions? If that is > the case, it would make sense to reuse a needle a few times on the same > patient within the same treatment. In my practice (I'm electic grounded > in TCM) I almost always leave the needles in for 15-30 minutes, then > take them all out at once. So I wouldn't be re-using a needle within one > session. > > By the way.... I respect Five Element Acupuncture, and I even have > friends who are of that persuasion, but sometimes it bugs me when 5-E > practitioners give out the impression that TCM acupuncturists don't base > their treatments on the Five Elements. Or that we don't treat emotional > issues. > > Greg Dember > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 9 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:38:36 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > Re: dull needles > > Hi Greg > > yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my > training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate > flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in > the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. > > this list is getting interesting! > > Regards > > amanda > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 10 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:42:47 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > Re: dull needles > > oops, just found your second paragraph. I agree that TCM effectively > addresses emotional issues - I think that the Five Element elitism stems > from an old history, personality politics, stuff best forgotten. That said, > my TCM training never took me to the spirit of points in the way that Five > Element did, and I'm glad of my training at Leamington for that above all > else. > > Amanda > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 11 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:27:48 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor > TCM/5-E > > TCM and 5-E. Greg and Amanda.... > I would be very glad if you could give a brief clarification in > this two different approuches....I feel that this might take us > into the core of some important issues (even if it is a bit > repetitive, please). I think I can handle some details awlready... :^) > > geovani > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Message: 12 > Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:32:07 +0200 > Rick Kramer <kramer > Re: dull needles > > This can be dangerous as muscle fibers can be caught on the needle. Best to > close ones eyes and imagine either sucking the bad qi out all the while > pumping ever so slightly the needle in an outward direction - for > tonification, do the exact opposite. It works wonderfully without any > danger. > > BoumBoum wrote: > > > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > > > > Hi Greg > > > > yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my > > training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate > > flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in > > the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. > > > > -- > ************************************************************ > Dr. Rick Kramer kramer > List Moderator > Projectives List > ++972-3-570-7245 ISRAEL > --------------------------- > > __________________________ > ___ > __________________________ > ___ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 22, 1999 Report Share Posted November 22, 1999 acupuncture <acupuncture > acupuncture <acupuncture > Thursday, November 18, 1999 10:04 PM acupuncture Digest Number 109 > >> >There are 12 messages in this issue. > >Topics in today's digest: > > 1. Re: Cun Ruler. > " geovani " <inandor > 2. Re: re aggravated shoulder pain > " geovani " <inandor > 3. questions re acup studies > " murray " <murrayc > 4. The wholistic approuche. > " geovani " <inandor > 5. Re: questions re acup studies > " geovani " <inandor > 6. dull needles > Greg Dember <dember > 7. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 8. Re: dull needles > Greg Dember <dember > 9. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 10. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 11. TCM/5-E > " geovani " <inandor > 12. Re: dull needles > Rick Kramer <kramer > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 1 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:34:09 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >Re: Cun Ruler. > > > > " Marty Rickard " <martyr > >Good Point!! > >> the trouble with elastic is that how do you put a dot on or your finger on >> the point? >> As soon as you try, sproooiiinggg, the elastic is history. > >My friend had devised a rather cunning (contorted?) method of doing this >involving 2 fingers and a thumb, but it could prove to be an issue in the >short term. > >;-) > >MR > >geovani: Seems a good ideia,...to get used to the " general " >position of the points. But how it works exactly? You probably >take to references - like the pulse and elbow - and place the >proper amount of cuns in the interval with an elastic ruler. Nice. >I would hold one end with the little finger of one hand on the >ruller, and use the thumb of that same hand as the marker. >Should work with moust of the points. And as it is being pointed out, >this would be good to get the initial general positioning of the points. > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 2 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:43:25 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >Re: re aggravated shoulder pain > > > > " murray " <murrayc > >When a problem gets more painful after a treatment, there a several reasons >for this, in relation to the shoulder pain I'll deal with the most common >reason, and that is there is a blockage of energy & or blood in the area >very stagnant energy ) and if you put distal points in first it will have >the affect of sending extra energy to the area to clear the blockage, but if >the blockage is old, the extra energy backs up where the blockage is and >this >will sometimes cause more pain until it clears, it often takes quite a lot >of shifting trying to clear the blockage, but it will eventually clear >usually within 24 hours. Even so the pain won't last and the result will >still be a positive one, to sum it up put in local points first and distal >points second. >If its an old problem or injury insert local needles in first to clear the >area, wait a couple of minutes then put in the distal points appropriate to >the problem, this will prevent the pain from getting worse, there are other >reasons that this may occur but as I said this is the most common. This is >an old acupuncture law that applies to headaches particularly migraines, >always put local point in first to disperse the blockage then distal points >second. hope this is of help to someone. cheers Murray. > >geovani: Interesting, thx. Another point. In case of small >calcifications (p. ex. in the shoulder joint), could it be possible >that with the reestablishment of the proper QI equilibrium, >the solid deposits would dissolve and disapear? Or no such >thing is possible? Because if this is not possible, then i would >think that acupuncture would not deal with such situation - except >as a paliative to diminuish pain (?) > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 3 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:17:35 +1100 > " murray " <murrayc >questions re acup studies > >Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you >wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified >as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if >any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was >there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? >especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate >any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 4 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:11:54 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >The wholistic approuche. > >geovani: Well.....this patient comes in complaining about those >shoulder pains. So, as Murray expounded it, one maybe should >start with the local points, and only after a few minutes go for the >distal ones. But something must be further brought out here.... >Is the " real desiese " shoulder pains? Would it be correct to say >that the " nature " of this deseise is a desequilibrium of QI at the >shoulder level? I don't think so...In an absolute wholistic point of >wiew there is only one desiese: the desequilibrium of the " vital >energy " , and the local, acute simptoms, are episodical manifestations >of the one main deseise. I am having dificulties to bring this down >to an acupuncturist perspective, yet. So, in our particular case, >the shoulder patient, desregarding other issues but the genuine >scientific approuche to the situation, I would think that only a part >of the practicioners attention should be focused on the shoulder pain itself. >So we are desregarding the fact that this person may be sufering >strong pains (requiring some paliative actions), desregarding the fact >that if we don't deal with those shoulders fast, the patient will probably >abandon treatment (so one must explain to him the situation). >The main part of the attention will be directed in trying to find out >the " real " " deep " nature of the desequilibrium of energy - the real nature >of the sickness. > >Unfortunatly I must stop here, because my perspective about acupuncture >as one whole entity is lacking. I am still dealing with fragments, but deep inside >I know that one day I will have to put these fragments toghether into one unit, in >orther to be able to deal with the real source of QI desequilibrium. For instance.... >and this is just a guess in form a question....if the shoulder pain is related to the >bones and articulations, why not start with GB 11 - the general point of bones? >Or why not start with a point that deals with the general desequibrium of Yin/Yang? >In a first fast wiew on the subject (wholistic acup.) I would think that if such a point >exists (general Yin/Yang), why not puncture it in any and all circumstances? >So....what are your thoughts concerning the wholistic approuche in acup.? >If I eventualy succeed in stoping that local pain, that local disorder, will not >the real disorder continue? Will it not blow up in some other part - maybe in some >more vital organ then before? I defenitly feel that to deal with the localised disorder >exclusively, is not a genuine healing procedure.... > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 5 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:21:36 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >Re: questions re acup studies > > > > " murray " <murrayc > >Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you >wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified >as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if >any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was >there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? >especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate >any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray > >geovani: LOL LOL Hey, Murray...we seemed to have the same concerns >when writing our posts (wholistic....and, questions re......) at the same time. >I honestly beleive that if points are chosen having only the local, or accute >disorder in mind, some frustration will certainly be born. Because it is not >very effective to put a patch in a small hole in an attempt to stop the leaking, >if the realy big hole is left untouched... > >Keep in mind when treating a frozen shoulder that the reason is usually because of a heart problem and that there are some points that should not be used because they release accumulated bad energy and could kill the patient, this is not generally known but it is a fact. There are specific points that are ok and of course some rotating exercies used in martial art that are excellent for frozen shoulder. Murray > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 6 > Wed, 17 Nov 99 10:31:31 -0800 > Greg Dember <dember >dull needles > >>What I meant is that needles lose their sharpness, are less able to >>penetrate cleanly after using particular points. I notice this when I've >>used a point with particularly strong action, for example a strong spirit >>point that will be important for the patient, or a strong command >>point.(I'm a practitioner of 11 years experience) >> >>Amanda > > >I thought this was what you might have meant, rather then the qi >sensation being dull. How interesting! In the US, as far as I know, few >of us re-use needles. I never have. So that's interesting-- you find >that the needle is worn down faster after a powerful qi connection. > >Greg > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 7 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:04:19 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >Re: dull needles > >I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? >Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for two >or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment >approach? > >Amanda > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 8 > Wed, 17 Nov 99 15:10:17 -0800 > Greg Dember <dember >Re: dull needles > >>I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? >>Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for two >>or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment >>approach? > > >It's a policy thing.... but you know what? Maybe this is a TCM vs. 5-E >thing. Are you a 5-E practitioner? Am I right that you sometimes use >very brief insertion times, with a sequence of insertions? If that is >the case, it would make sense to reuse a needle a few times on the same >patient within the same treatment. In my practice (I'm electic grounded >in TCM) I almost always leave the needles in for 15-30 minutes, then >take them all out at once. So I wouldn't be re-using a needle within one >session. > > >By the way.... I respect Five Element Acupuncture, and I even have >friends who are of that persuasion, but sometimes it bugs me when 5-E >practitioners give out the impression that TCM acupuncturists don't base >their treatments on the Five Elements. Or that we don't treat emotional >issues. > >Greg Dember > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 9 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:38:36 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >Re: dull needles > >Hi Greg > >yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my >training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate >flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in >the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. > >this list is getting interesting! > >Regards > >amanda > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 10 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:42:47 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >Re: dull needles > >oops, just found your second paragraph. I agree that TCM effectively >addresses emotional issues - I think that the Five Element elitism stems >from an old history, personality politics, stuff best forgotten. That said, >my TCM training never took me to the spirit of points in the way that Five >Element did, and I'm glad of my training at Leamington for that above all >else. > >Amanda > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 11 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:27:48 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >TCM/5-E > >TCM and 5-E. Greg and Amanda.... >I would be very glad if you could give a brief clarification in >this two different approuches....I feel that this might take us >into the core of some important issues (even if it is a bit >repetitive, please). I think I can handle some details awlready... :^) > >geovani > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 12 > Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:32:07 +0200 > Rick Kramer <kramer >Re: dull needles > >This can be dangerous as muscle fibers can be caught on the needle. Best to >close ones eyes and imagine either sucking the bad qi out all the while >pumping ever so slightly the needle in an outward direction - for >tonification, do the exact opposite. It works wonderfully without any danger. > > > >BoumBoum wrote: > >> " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >> >> Hi Greg >> >> yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my >> training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate >> flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in >> the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. >> > >-- >************************************************************ > Dr. Rick Kramer kramer > List Moderator > Projectives List > ++972-3-570-7245 ISRAEL >--------------------------- > > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 29, 2000 Report Share Posted November 29, 2000 Hi Could you give me some advice for treating a patient with throat cancer? He has been told his vocal cords will have to be removed. Thanks, Love and Light, Jenny ===== Jenny Miller Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. / Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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