[MassageTherapistsUnited] National Scam Exam

[Guest guest]

Rich, I can certainly understand your frustration with the many costs that

new therapists face to gain " credibility " . I share it at times. There are

many 'hoops' that we must jump through to gain credibility.

 

> " assures the competency of practitioners of therapeutic massage and

>bodywork. " (copied directly from NCBTMB web site)

 

It is supposed to test your basic knowledge of anatomy, physiology,

pathology, and different modalities.

 

>

>This test was so simple it amazes me that the NCBTMB would even make

>the above statement.

 

Maybe it was simple for you, but many people on this list have expressed

difficulties and strain getting ready. Who knows what your background is?

Perhaps you already had a medical background, or you could just be very

intelligent.

 

I am reviewing for the test right now, and the review book has questions in

it that I actually have to look up. Some of the material is advanced, even

for good students.

 

Taking this test only confirms that this is not

>the route we should be taking. The only one(s) who are qualified to

>determine my competency was my school and it's instructor(s). I had

>to take a 1 hour hands-on test (at my first school in Texas) that

>determined my competency, and that's all that should be required.

>Tests like the NCE only help to spread a lie that passing it

>means " competency is assured " .

 

I disagree highly. While a hands on, face to face test does assess you

better on an individual level, it also includes bias. There is no bias in an

organization that is *national* and computerized. In my opinion, the Nat'l

Board is necessary, for that reason. Lack of bias.

 

Also, to become Nationally Certified, you must swear to uphold the code of

ethics. If you do not, you can have your certification, and local licenses

taken from you, which is a very important safety, as I'll discuss below.

 

>

>Once we relied on our teachers to convey their knowledge to us. We

>trusted them to do that. If they don't, then there are ways, that can

>be assured through the marketplace and if neccessary, the courts.

>They are the ones that should come under scrutiny for competence by

>the state. There are means available to ensure that they are held to

>a high standard.

 

Yes, there are means available to ensure quality of training. Of of the best

is a *national organization*. Like COMTA, which certifies schools, and who

the Nat'l Cert. Board works with.

 

>

>It's time to stop this madness and ripoff. There is need for

>regulation, to prevent the local Govts. from infringing on our rights

>and classifying us as something other than what we are, but there is

>no need to endure us to just as senseless state licensing and expense.

 

I agree, it is time to stop the madness, however; each of us must do it

individually. Solve your own issues, and you add just that much more light

to the world.

 

I wish that extensive licensing was not necessary, but I believe that it is

right now. Here's a short (true) story I was told recently:

 

Here in Denver, there is a business called " Magic Hands by Vera Lucia " .

It's reportedly run by a woman and her husband. They received formal massage

therapy instruction. Obviously, their instructors found them competent,

since they did graduate. However, I've found that these 'Licensed Massage

Therapists' also offer " extra " services to their clients. Erotic massage, in

short. In addition, they contact local therapists (ethical ones) and try to

pressure them into raising their rates to match those of " Magic Hands by

Vera Lucia " . They use intimidation and coercion, very unethical business

practices.

 

Now tell me, if there is no state board to report them to (there isn't in

CO), and no Nat'l Cert. Board to report them to, how can we stop these

people from advertising like the ethical therapeutic massage therapists,

further damaging our professional status?

 

I'm writing this not as any type of insult to you, Rich, but in hopes that

you'll listen. In the society that we live in, if we want professional

acknowledgment, we must work within the rules..even if it's expensive.

 

I apologize for the length of this post, and hope I did not offend anyone,

as it is not my intent.

 

Sincerely,

Jan Nerone, CMT

 

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[Guest guest]

, " Massage Avatar " <massageavatar@h...>

wrote:

 

 

Hi Jan,

 

Just some comments on your nice post;

 

>

> Maybe it was simple for you, but many people on this list have

expressed difficulties and strain getting ready. Who knows what your

background is? Perhaps you already had a medical background, or you

could just be very intelligent.>

 

I've never taken any type of natural science before I went ot Massage

School. I feel that I am somewhat intelligent, but not anymore than

the average person. If all the NCE test were the same Then this was

as I said. I did have to repeat A & P here in Florida. The school did

an awful job at Anatomy, but it was still sufficient to pass the test.

>

 

> I disagree highly. While a hands on, face to face test does assess

you better on an individual level, it also includes bias. There is no

bias in an organization that is *national* and computerized. In my

opinion, the Nat'l Board is necessary, for that reason. Lack of bias.

>

 

If a test is neccessary, then I can see your point. But it is not.

 

> Also, to become Nationally Certified, you must swear to uphold the

code of ethics. If you do not, you can have your certification, and

local licenses taken from you, which is a very important safety, as

I'll discuss below.>

 

Violation of the NCBTMB code of ethics will not have any effect on

your license. A seperate charge of violating a state law will only do

that.

>

 

> Yes, there are means available to ensure quality of training. Of of

the best is a *national organization*. Like COMTA, which certifies

schools, and who the Nat'l Cert. Board works with.>

 

I understand what you are talking about. However, both these

organizations either have a direct or indirect sympathetic

relationship with the AMTA, which has not acted ethically in the

licensure issue

 

 

> I agree, it is time to stop the madness, however; each of us must

do it individually. Solve your own issues, and you add just that much

more light to the world.

>

> I wish that extensive licensing was not necessary, but I believe

that it is right now. >

 

For now, but not for long. There is an alternative such as the one in

Minnesota. Some have told me of the short comings of this law and I

believe those can be corrected.

 

 

< Here's a short (true) story I was told recently:

 

> Here in Denver, there is a business called " Magic Hands by Vera

Lucia " ...................

Now tell me, if there is no state board to report them to (there

isn't in CO), and no Nat'l Cert. Board to report them to, how can we

stop these people from advertising like the ethical therapeutic

massage therapists, further damaging our professional status?>

 

I agree, there must be a State Board to complain too. They have that

in Minn., without licensure. People like the ones you describe would

come under the law. The NCBTMB would have no effect on their

practice. All they can do is refuse to honor a renewal or kick them

out of the NCBTMB, they are a private organization.

 

Even in states that have strict laws (I'm in Florida, one of the

strictest) this kind of behavior goes on.

>

> I'm writing this not as any type of insult to you, Rich, but in

hopes that you'll listen. In the society that we live in, if we want

professional acknowledgment, we must work within the rules..even if

it's expensive.>

 

The best kind of acknowledgement you can get is from you clients. A

professional organization should affirm that relationship by

education of the public, not by trying to exclude and outlaw people

from practicing their craft.

 

I really did enjoy your post here. You seem to be a person who wishes

to learn as well as show others. A good dialogue indeed.

[Guest guest]

Hello again!

 

>

>

>If a test is neccessary, then I can see your point. But it is not.

 

Why is a test not necessary?

 

 

>Violation of the NCBTMB code of ethics will not have any effect on

>your license. A seperate charge of violating a state law will only do

>that.

> >

>

 

Point!

 

 

>I understand what you are talking about. However, both these

>organizations either have a direct or indirect sympathetic

>relationship with the AMTA, which has not acted ethically in the

>licensure issue

>

 

The fact that they may or may not be ethical does not diminish the fact that

we need them. If the nat'l organizations are not ethical, then they need

reform. But I still believe we need national direction!

 

>I agree, there must be a State Board to complain too. They have that

>in Minn., without licensure. People like the ones you describe would

>come under the law. The NCBTMB would have no effect on their

>practice. All they can do is refuse to honor a renewal or kick them

>out of the NCBTMB, they are a private organization.

 

Is there a web resource about the Minn. law?

 

>I really did enjoy your post here. You seem to be a person who wishes

>to learn as well as show others. A good dialogue indeed.

>

 

Thank you for enjoying the spirit of discussion!

 

Jan

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I'm studying for this exam now. Maybe the test is simple, but at $195 a

whack, and a computerized testing center (which I've never seen), and

freaking out WHENEVER I have to take a test, no matter how simple, it

becomes a big deal for me, and many other people as well. Many of the

people who go into this field do so because they aren't comfortable with

mainstream practices, and testing pushes buttons for a lot of people.

 

My " college education " was a nightmare that lasted six years, and this feels

like a nasty flashback.

 

just my 2 cents worth...

 

Maggie

 

 

>

>This test was so simple it amazes me that the NCBTMB would even make

>the above statement.

 

Maybe it was simple for you, but many people on this list have expressed

difficulties and strain getting ready. Who knows what your background is?

Perhaps you already had a medical background, or you could just be very

intelligent.

 

I am reviewing for the test right now, and the review book has questions in

it that I actually have to look up. Some of the material is advanced, even

for good students.

[Guest guest]

>Here in Denver, there is a business called " Magic Hands by Vera Lucia " .

>It's reportedly run by a woman and her husband.

 

Husband's name wouldn't be Dave by any chance would it?

 

 

Ged

[Guest guest]

Hello Jan, my friendly detractor,

 

I agree that for some modalities i.e. Rolfing Craniosacral, etc.

should have testing. Preferably their own. But for entry level a

written exam doesn't measure the manual skills that are neccessary.

 

That web site for the Minnesota group is:

 

www.minnesotanaturalhealth.org

 

Blessed be,

 

Rich Haslam

[Guest guest]

I wish you the best on your test. If it makes you feel any better, I

also get the jitters and sometimes other unpleasant side effects.

Once you start the exam just remember that I said it was easy and

you'll do fine.

 

Best wishes,

 

Rich Haslam

 

 

 

, " maggie " <maggiej@m...> wrote:

>

>

> I'm studying for this exam now. Maybe the test is simple, but at

$195 a

> whack, and a computerized testing center (which I've never seen),

and

> freaking out WHENEVER I have to take a test, no matter how simple,

it

> becomes a big deal for me, and many other people as well. Many of

the

> people who go into this field do so because they aren't comfortable

with

> mainstream practices, and testing pushes buttons for a lot of

people.

>

> My " college education " was a nightmare that lasted six years, and

this feels

> like a nasty flashback.

>

> just my 2 cents worth...

>

> Maggie

>

>

> >

> >This test was so simple it amazes me that the NCBTMB would even

make

> >the above statement.

>

> Maybe it was simple for you, but many people on this list have

expressed

> difficulties and strain getting ready. Who knows what your

background is?

> Perhaps you already had a medical background, or you could just be

very

> intelligent.

>

> I am reviewing for the test right now, and the review book has

questions in

> it that I actually have to look up. Some of the material is

advanced, even

> for good students.

[Guest guest]

Thanks for the URL, Rich!

 

I detract to understand, as at core, I am against central government in any

form.

 

And I agree, a written exam can't measure manual skills. But we also need

knowledge of pathology and physiology. If for no other reason to refer out

when we suspect problems. And don't we need a written exam for that?

 

In light,

Jan

 

 

> " Rich Haslam " <rahaslam

>

>

> Re: [MassageTherapistsUnited] National Scam Exam

>Fri, 03 Nov 2000 00:22:57 -0000

>

> Hello Jan, my friendly detractor,

>

>I agree that for some modalities i.e. Rolfing Craniosacral, etc.

>should have testing. Preferably their own. But for entry level a

>written exam doesn't measure the manual skills that are neccessary.

>

>That web site for the Minnesota group is:

>

>www.minnesotanaturalhealth.org

>

>Blessed be,

>

>Rich Haslam

>

 

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[Guest guest]

Jan:

 

I have to agree with Rich that the schools should be responsible for testing

knowledge of anatomy, physiology and

hands-on skills... as a matter of fact, they do test those things, or a person

wouldn't graduate (this is

especially true in COMTA approved schools).

 

If the standards were strengthened in that arena, that should satisfy some

proponents... but not all, obviously.

I have suggested that it be used as a guideline test during massage training,

like the NLN is used for nursing

students, to allow teachers to see where the students are and fill in the gaps

before they graduate if necessary.

 

The people who stand most to profit from certification and the perpetual

educational debt it incrues for the

certificants are the certification board and the massage schools/CE providers.

Yes, people should improve

themselves with continuing ed... but certification is a lot like living in a

company town, living in company

housing and shopping at the company store.

 

Sixteen tons, and what do you get? Another day older, and deeper in debt... St.

Peter don't you call me, cause I

can't go...

 

I owe my soul to the company store.

 

If MTs are going to sell their soul for a couple of letters, they should be a

little more important letters, IMO.

The NCE has a lot of flaws that need reparation before it is considered a good

measure of competancy, or even of

basic entry level knowledge.

 

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

 

Massage Avatar wrote:

 

> Thanks for the URL, Rich!

>

> I detract to understand, as at core, I am against central government in any

form.

>

> And I agree, a written exam can't measure manual skills. But we also need

knowledge of pathology and

> physiology. If for no other reason to refer out when we suspect problems. And

don't we need a written exam for

> that?

>

> In light,

> Jan

 

 

_____NetZero Free Internet Access and Email______

http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

[Guest guest]

<But we also need knowledge of pathology and physiology. If for no other

reason to refer out

when we suspect problems. And don't we need a written exam for that?>

 

Suspect what problems? How will you determine what the problem is? Diagnose?

We have been doing massage for over 3,000 years without even having to know

anatomy. How can you justify its need now?

 

Will it make you smarter and able to solve more difficult problems? Absolutely

yes.

 

Will it make you a better entry level therapist?

Absolutely NO!

 

I agree that to do more advanced techniques that involve more rehabilitation

of injured tissue requires a knowledge of anatomy, but not for entry level.

 

Love and Light

 

Rich Haslam

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Well,

>

> Suspect what problems? How will you determine what the problem is?

>Diagnose?

 

I prefer to categorize it as an assessment. Prior to doing a session,

I perform an overall assessment of the clients body. If I feel something

that is beyond my scope of training, I suggest that the client obtain

an evaluation from either a Chiropractor or Osteopath before I work

with them. Typically the " odd " things I've noticed occur along the

spinal column and will suggest the client see a Chiro, or at least

their PCP. I don't offer any suggestion as to what might or might not

be wrong. That *is* beyong my scope of practice.

And before you jump, those who know me, know me to be anti-legislation

in most forms currently under proposal or enacted.

 

We have been doing massage for over 3,000 years without even having to know

anatomy. How can you justify its need now?

 

For medically related massage, I would highly recommend an in-depth

knowledge of A & P. For Swedish/relaxation massage, I think it's a bit

of overkill to make it a pre-requisite to being nationally certified. After

all, why can't I be nationally certified in Swedish without

having taken 500+ hours of massage training? If I possess the inherent

skill, why won't 100, or even 50, hours suffice? Or even a weekend

intensive?

>

> Will it make you smarter and able to solve more difficult problems?

>Absolutely yes.

>

> Will it make you a better entry level therapist?

> Absolutely NO!

>

> I agree that to do more advanced techniques that involve more

>rehabilitation of injured tissue requires a knowledge of anatomy, but not

>for entry level.

 

Yep, just what I said.......

 

Mani

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I live in the happily unregulated state of Illinois, so I don't have as much

skin in the game as most of you. I just completed a 700 hour massage therapy

program and I intend to sit for the exam. I don't see it as proof of

anything, but I do accept it as a reality. I don't particularly like the law

of gravity, but I have to deal with it. The fact is that sooner or later

Illinois will pass a law requiring it, so I'd rather take it while the stuff

is fresh. Perhaps it,s because I've been through the process when I sat for

my EMT. So much for my personal choices.

 

If this were an open forum, I would keep my mouth shut. But, this is in the

family, so I think we can be frank. We can't legally call it that, but let's

face it. We diagnose all the time. We have to. If for no other reason than

checking for contra-indications. It's not taught as such, but that's

dianositc technique.

 

Chuck LaFrano thinks that massage therapists will replace MDs as the first

line of patient contact. There may be something to this, but we'll need to

be capable. My wife was diagnosed five years ago with malignant melanoma.

Her oncologist told me that he gets 2-3 referrals a month that originated

with massage therapists. We can't diagnose it, but we can spot it and refer

out. Who sees more skin than us?

 

I also find your statement about performing massage for 3,000 years without

having to know anatomy interesting. I only have five years experience

myself, but the study of anatomy isn't about memorizing muscle names, it's

about understanding structural relationships, no matter how many poor

instructors have left you with that feeling. When I put my hand between your

scaculae, it doesn't matter if I know which rhomboid I'm touching. But, I

should know that the muscle there is running this way, attachs to these

bones, and that if I go deeper, the fiber direction will change, and so

forth.

 

Now, if your work is energetic in nature, I understand your irritation with

this, but if you touch the body, you'd better understand how it goes

together and how it feels when it's not functioning correctly. By the way,

the ancient Greeks used a lot of massage in their medicine and they were the

first scientific anatomists, about 3,000 years ago, if memory serves.

 

 

 

 

> " rahaslam " <rahaslam

>

>

>Re: Re: [MassageTherapistsUnited] National Scam Exam

>Fri, 3 Nov 2000 18:38:43 -0500

>

>

> <But we also need knowledge of pathology and physiology. If for no

>other reason to refer out

> when we suspect problems. And don't we need a written exam for that?>

>

> Suspect what problems? How will you determine what the problem is?

>Diagnose? We have been doing massage for over 3,000 years without even

>having to know anatomy. How can you justify its need now?

>

> Will it make you smarter and able to solve more difficult problems?

>Absolutely yes.

>

> Will it make you a better entry level therapist?

> Absolutely NO!

>

> I agree that to do more advanced techniques that involve more

>rehabilitation of injured tissue requires a knowledge of anatomy, but not

>for entry level.

>

> Love and Light

>

> Rich Haslam

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

<< The fact is that sooner or later Illinois will pass a law requiring it, so

I'd rather take it while the stuff is fresh.>>

 

Don't give up. If everyone just gave up then unjust laws get passed. They

didn't give up in Minnesota and they got a law passed they wanted that was fair.

 

<< We diagnose all the time. We have to. If for no other reason than checking

for contra-indications. It's not taught as such, but that's dianositc

technique.>>

 

I think your mistaking " diagnosis " with " assessment " . We assess the client

state to determine if there are any contraindications. To diagnose requires

Taking a complete history, doing a thorough examination utilizing the many

diagnostic tools available only to a licensed Physician. Then make a final

determination of the clients condition stating the source of the problem and

naming it.

 

 

<< Chuck LaFrano thinks that massage therapists will replace MDs as the first

line of patient contact. There may be something to this, but we'll need to be

capable. >>

 

I think Chuck is dreaming. Maybe something else that also does massage, but

not MTs. That's way out of any kind of scope of practice.

 

<<I also find your statement about performing massage for 3,000 years without

having to know anatomy interesting. I only have five years experience myself,

but the study of anatomy isn't about memorizing muscle names, it's about

understanding structural relationships, no matter how many poor instructors have

left you with that feeling. When I put my hand between your scaculae, it doesn't

matter if I know which rhomboid I'm touching. But, I should know that the muscle

there is running this way, attachs to these bones, and that if I go deeper, the

fiber direction will change, and so forth. >>

 

Not to do entry level relaxing massage. It helps, but is not required. The

Greeks may have studied anatomy, but I'll bet that the person working the bath

houses didn't know a Rhomboid from Romulus.

 

<<Now, if your work is energetic in nature, I understand your irritation with

this, but if you touch the body, you'd better understand how it goes together

and how it feels when it's not functioning correctly. >>

 

I do energetic, relaxing and deep tissue work. For the first two there is no

need for anatomy knowledge. For deep tissue, yes.

 

Rich

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Rich:

 

>

> Suspect what problems? How will you determine what the problem is?

>Diagnose? We have been doing massage for over 3,000 years without even

>having to know anatomy. How can you justify its need now?

>

 

Suspect problems does not mean diagnose, Rich. I simply meant that in

massage school, at least the one I went to, we were taught contraindications

and danger signs. For the good of the client, we should know a few. It does

NOT mean that I would say to a client, " Hey, this mole looks like skin

cancer! " It means that I have the concern for my client to tell them that

they may need help that is beyond my scope.

 

Respectfully, I am withdrawing from this discussion with an agreement to

disagree.

 

Thank you all for your time and input!

 

Jan

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