Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 Hi, Crow, Just watched a rather strange TV program from the BBC (UK) about bizarre events in nature, and heard that crows are interested in fire. They like to 'smoke-bathe' because the smoke cleans and disinfects their plumage. They can be seen sitting on the top of smoking chimneys or in the smoke from bonfires. It showed a crow picking up a discarded cigarette butt, still smoking, and flying off with it, apparently to enjoy the effects of the smoke. Before cigarettes, they would carry off smouldering embers and often set fire to other objetcs, such as thatched roofs, in the process. In the Middle Ages they were apparently known as 'firebirds' ! Wondered if you knew?? Perhaps you can extend your repertoire! Love, Jo, in Sydney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 Jo: Well, that explains a lot <LOL> Like why I learned to smoke as a teenager when no one in my family smoked ;-) It might also explain my affinity for fire tending at sweats; I've gone to many where I never went in, content to build and tend the fire and stones instead. I'd go home pleasantly tired and smelling like I'd been barbecued. Ah... well, okay, another personal experience... Once, when I was fire tending at a sweat (this is a process that starts with the fire building ceremony and lasts most of the day, while the fire is heating the rocks, transporting hot rocks in rounds to the sweat pit, and maintaining the fire for the participants afterwards) The day was moist and gloomy, late Summer in the South; the wood was somewhat damp and we'd had a heck of a time getting her going, the group had danced and sung, we'd used all manner of hay and pinestraw and wood chips, etc. to get the fire started and it was still a little sickly. The group left for a ceremony in another area, which left my helper and I alone with the iffy fire pit. I spent a lot of time on my hands and knees, crawling around the fire and feeding the small embers with my breath like a bellows until they could catch. Suddenly something " popped " in the fire... I don't know if it was a damp log or a rock that had water in it, but the fire blew out into my face, I was literally showered with sparks! It is hard to describe how this was. I was shocked, but not at all afraid; it was like being surrounded by stars, or tiny light beings. Time stopped for an instant for me, and I sat back on my haunches. My helper ran over to see if I was all right, and there wasn't a burn on me, not an ember on my clothes, no singed hair... just amazing. I don't know why that happened, it was a sort of transcendent moment, and I recall feeling much more calm and together after that for awhile. Well, the fire finally caught, and we had the sweat, but for me that was the defining moment of the experience, being part of the fire for an instant. Thanks for your post, Jo. That memory had been quiet for a long time. Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " > " Jo Rudd " <jorudd > > " BodyMind " > Fire birds >Sat, 7 Apr 2001 18:43:20 +1000 > >Hi, Crow, > >Just watched a rather strange TV program from the BBC (UK) about bizarre >events in nature, and heard that crows are interested in fire. They like to >'smoke-bathe' because the smoke cleans and disinfects their plumage. They >can be seen sitting on the top of smoking chimneys or in the smoke from >bonfires. > >It showed a crow picking up a discarded cigarette butt, still smoking, and >flying off with it, apparently to enjoy the effects of the smoke. Before >cigarettes, they would carry off smouldering embers and often set fire to >other objetcs, such as thatched roofs, in the process. > >In the Middle Ages they were apparently known as 'firebirds' ! > >Wondered if you knew?? Perhaps you can extend your repertoire! > >Love, >Jo, in Sydney > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 Jo: One more comment, in addition to the smoke, I imagine the attraction is the shiny aspect; corvines love shiny things and will collect them; metallic objects, reflective objects, and can be seen holding them in the light and enjoying that. Visual enjoyment seems the only use they have for things like that, but they have a reputation in some areas for stealing things like jewelry and silverware if it's left out where they can see it. Magpies are particularly fond of collecting. Seems like to me there was a movie once about a crow that collected shiny nuggets of gold from a stream and put them in a hollow tree, and when a child was good to him, led the child to the tree. I don't want to anthropomorphize them too much, but it is fascinating to me to see what I would think of as a human characteristic (acquisitiveness) in a creature. I wonder if it is purely for the pleasure of looking at the shiny things, or if there is another reason, like with the fire you mentioned. Blessings, Crow _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Crow said: >>> It might also explain my affinity for fire tending at sweats; I've gone to > many where I never went in, content to build and tend the fire and stones > instead. I'd go home pleasantly tired and smelling like I'd been barbecued. <<< I love fire making and cooking on them too. But what exactly is a 'sweat' ? Crow also said: >>> Once, when I was fire tending at a sweat ... I spent a lot > of time on my hands and knees, crawling around the fire and feeding the > small embers with my breath like a bellows until they could catch. Suddenly > something " popped " in the fire... I don't know if it was a damp log or a > rock that had water in it, but the fire blew out into my face, I was > literally showered with sparks! ... > it was like being surrounded by stars, or > tiny light beings. Time stopped for an instant for me ... it was a sort of transcendent moment, and I > recall feeling much more calm and together after that for awhile. >>> What an amazing experience, Crow! You truly are a firebird. Perhaps that was your 'initiation' ? Love, Jo, in Sydney> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Um, pardon me, Ms. Crow-Woman, sister-friend-wife dear. But where were you and your shiny feathers when we were at Pat's and *I* was out building and tending the fire? Bonfire Goddess Anu www.AnniesHands.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Crow, I really love the image of you that you related; in your fire shower. Thanks for sharing. Audrey -- " Suddenly something " popped " in the fire... I don't know if it was a damp log or a rock that had water in it, but the fire blew out into my face, I was literally showered with sparks! It is hard to describe how this was. I was shocked, but not at all afraid; it was like being surrounded by stars, or tiny light beings. Time stopped for an instant for me, and I sat back on my haunches. My helper ran over to see if I was all right, and there wasn't a burn on me, not an ember on my clothes, no singed hair... just amazing. I don't know why that happened, it was a sort of transcendent moment, and I recall feeling much more calm and together after that for awhile. Well, the fire finally caught, and we had the sweat, but for me that was the defining moment of the experience, being part of the fire for an instant. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Crow wrote: -- " I don't want to anthropomorphize them too much, but it is fascinating to me to see what I would think of as a human characteristic (acquisitiveness) in a creature. I wonder if it is purely for the pleasure of looking at the shiny things, or if there is another reason, like with the fire you mentioned. " I find it a wonderful experience to consider the thoughts of other species (people baffle me more). I live with a cat and it is wonderful to watch her and pretend I know what is going on in her head. I consider " anthropomorphize " to be a harmful word (along with " instinct " - I know I'll get into trouble on this one); it lets one believe that animals and objects are Less Than: not requiring respect and awe. I do not mean to imply that those who use it consciously mean it that way, but that it is a language set-up that sends the hearer (and the user) down that path. Audrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Audrey: Well, I suppose it goes both ways. I have to disagree with you personally, however, especially about my usage of the words. The reason I don't want to anthropomorphize animals is because I doubt they have some of the seriously flawed motivations that humans have for doing things... it seems more likely that they follow their bliss more often, go with the flow, and respond to natural cycles. Humans have a lot of dreck associated with everything they do and we seem a lot less able to accept our inner wisdom than most animals do. I would never make the assumption that humans are better, or indeed, smarter, than the other beings we inhabit the planet with, simply because they have lucked into the top spot in the food chain. Being " King of the Hill " happens to be a pretty precarious position in the evolutionary scheme of things, especially for a hairless, neurotic creature who kills for pleasure and has delusions of grandeur. Humans seem to have no internal concept of excess, especially in group situations. It is a source of constant wonder to me that Mother Earth doesn't just shake us off her back like so many fleas <LOL> On the other hand, though we are not " superior " , we have different gifts than the other creatures, and it is part of our " job " so to speak to explore those gifts, but also to understand the responsibility that accompanies great power. Unfortunately, humankind seems to be a much better at exploring and exploiting than caretaking :-( We've bred domestic animals to be helpless as well. We have an unfortunate tendency to underestimate our fellow planeteers and don't display any sense in housing ourselves away from sites of natural disasters and predator habitats. I think that " awe " is a good word for how we should approach everything... not just nature, but ourselves. We all have the potential to be amazingly useful or devastatingly dangerous to ourselves and others. I find nothing offensive about the word " instinct " , either. Despite our science classes in school, humans do have some instincts, though they do not seem as strong or as driving as those animals display. Instincts assist beings to survive by connecting them to the natural order of the earth and their bodies. The circadium rhythm, for instance, could be called an instinct, since most humans are relatively diurnal in sleep patterns. Physical urges and drives could be argued as human instincts for survival. I was watching Orwell's " Animal Farm " not too long ago, and was very glad that in real life, animals don't try to model themselves after us or our societies. In that parameter, isn't anthropomorphizing a frightening idea? Blessings, Crow >audreylee > > > Re: Fire birds >Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:48:35 -0000 > >Crow wrote: >-- " I don't want to anthropomorphize them too much, but it is >fascinating to me to see what I would think of as a human >characteristic (acquisitiveness) in a creature. I wonder if it is >purely for the pleasure of looking at the shiny things, or if there is >another reason, like with the fire you mentioned. " > >I find it a wonderful experience to consider the thoughts of other >species (people baffle me more). I live with a cat and it is wonderful >to watch her and pretend I know what is going on in her head. > >I consider " anthropomorphize " to be a harmful word (along with > " instinct " - I know I'll get into trouble on this one); it lets one >believe that animals and objects are Less Than: not requiring respect >and awe. I do not mean to imply that those who use it consciously mean >it that way, but that it is a language set-up that sends the hearer >(and the user) down that path. > >Audrey > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 dear caroline: now that we know you are a Libra i am very curious to ask for your chinese sign, It's not out of being nosy, just true " academic curiosity " to check if the patterns work... forgive me if you find this strange question. I enjoy your writing and ideas and i learned a lot through this group, thanks Anat sagitarious+Tiger, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 > " Jo Rudd " <jorudd > >I love fire making and cooking on them too. But what exactly is a 'sweat' >? > Jo: I suppose the easiest way to describe a sweat is that it is technically a sort of sauna. In a larger sense, it is a cleansing ceremony, used by several traditions, most notably the " inipi " of the Native Americans but also by other indiginous and some Pagan groups. The Native sweat is built in a structure to resemble a turtle; the fire and the door of the lodge are in the east; the fire pit is the head of the turtle, the lodge the body. Inside is a pit where stones that have been heated in the fire are placed by the fire tender, usually in " rounds " . The ceremonies surrounding the sweat vary, but there is a lot of preparation and ritual surrounding the building of the lodge and fire pit, selection of stones, placement of the wood, number of stones used, participants (male, female or mixed), etc. There is a leader who guides the group in praying and singing rounds, and it gets very hot and oppressive in the lodge; between rounds the door flap may be opened for a short while, and water or herbal teas passed around. Some are dry sweats, and some put damp herbs or herbal tea on the hot stones. It is a time for moving inside, like going back into the womb, yet is very social at the same time. It's not necessarily a good place for people who have a lot of repressed issues (unless they are ready to release them), because the heat, necessity for deep breathing hot air, and proximity of others can bring up a lot of things. It can be used as a method to commune with the spirits, and also to make a clean breast of things. That is one reason it has been used with great effectiveness to cleanse and renew people for centuries. Sadly, Natives were prohibited from practicing the sweat for years here in the US because of prejudice and fear. >What an amazing experience, Crow! You truly are a firebird. Perhaps that >was your 'initiation' ? > LOL... I have a hard head, Jo... I imagine the spirits will never really be finished with me! I think they keep throwing me back in the fire to remold me, with sometimes humorously mixed results. Blessings, Crow _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 9, 2001 Report Share Posted April 9, 2001 Anu! Well, it is my understanding that you are actually a Fire *Goddess*, whereas I am simply a Fire *Bird* <G> That was a wonderful summer evening. Have you had any plans for more bodyworker gatherings like that one? A bit far for me (even as the crow flies ;-) but I've been known to venture into the wilds of Pennsylvania before! Keep on bonfiring, Sistah! Crow >Anukki > > >Re: Re: Fire birds >Mon, 9 Apr 2001 13:21:41 EDT > > >Um, pardon me, Ms. Crow-Woman, sister-friend-wife dear. But where were you >and your shiny feathers when we were at Pat's and *I* was out building and >tending the fire? > >Bonfire Goddess Anu > >www.AnniesHands.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 Dear Crow, I have to appologize for underestimating you. You seem to have a pretty non-main-stream thought approach to many things, which I appreciate. I hope I did not offend you. My tone was a result of being ready to be annoyed at 'main-stream' thinkers who seem to be willing to disregard and dis-respect the spirit in non-human beings. Having gotten to know just a little bit about you from your postings here, I should have known better than to even remotely include you among them. Namaste, Audrey , " Caroline Abreu " <nrgbalance@h...> wrote: > Audrey: > > Well, I suppose it goes both ways. I have to disagree with you personally, > however, especially about my usage of the words. > > The reason I don't want to anthropomorphize animals is because I doubt they > have some of the seriously flawed motivations that humans have for doing > things... it seems more likely that they follow their bliss more often, go > with the flow, and respond to natural cycles. Humans have a lot of dreck > associated with everything they do and we seem a lot less able to accept our > inner wisdom than most animals do. > > I would never make the assumption that humans are better, or indeed, > smarter, than the other beings we inhabit the planet with, simply because > they have lucked into the top spot in the food chain. Being " King of the > Hill " happens to be a pretty precarious position in the evolutionary scheme > of things, especially for a hairless, neurotic creature who kills for > pleasure and has delusions of grandeur. Humans seem to have no internal > concept of excess, especially in group situations. It is a source of > constant wonder to me that Mother Earth doesn't just shake us off her back > like so many fleas <LOL> > > On the other hand, though we are not " superior " , we have different gifts > than the other creatures, and it is part of our " job " so to speak to explore > those gifts, but also to understand the responsibility that accompanies > great power. Unfortunately, humankind seems to be a much better at exploring > and exploiting than caretaking :-( We've bred domestic animals to be > helpless as well. We have an unfortunate tendency to underestimate our > fellow planeteers and don't display any sense in housing ourselves away from > sites of natural disasters and predator habitats. > > I think that " awe " is a good word for how we should approach everything... > not just nature, but ourselves. We all have the potential to be amazingly > useful or devastatingly dangerous to ourselves and others. > > I find nothing offensive about the word " instinct " , either. Despite our > science classes in school, humans do have some instincts, though they do not > seem as strong or as driving as those animals display. Instincts assist > beings to survive by connecting them to the natural order of the earth and > their bodies. The circadium rhythm, for instance, could be called an > instinct, since most humans are relatively diurnal in sleep patterns. > Physical urges and drives could be argued as human instincts for survival. > > I was watching Orwell's " Animal Farm " not too long ago, and was very glad > that in real life, animals don't try to model themselves after us or our > societies. In that parameter, isn't anthropomorphizing a frightening idea? > > Blessings, > Crow > > > >audreylee@n... > > > > > > Re: Fire birds > >Mon, 09 Apr 2001 14:48:35 -0000 > > > >Crow wrote: > >-- " I don't want to anthropomorphize them too much, but it is > >fascinating to me to see what I would think of as a human > >characteristic (acquisitiveness) in a creature. I wonder if it is > >purely for the pleasure of looking at the shiny things, or if there is > >another reason, like with the fire you mentioned. " > > > >I find it a wonderful experience to consider the thoughts of other > >species (people baffle me more). I live with a cat and it is wonderful > >to watch her and pretend I know what is going on in her head. > > > >I consider " anthropomorphize " to be a harmful word (along with > > " instinct " - I know I'll get into trouble on this one); it lets one > >believe that animals and objects are Less Than: not requiring respect > >and awe. I do not mean to imply that those who use it consciously mean > >it that way, but that it is a language set-up that sends the hearer > >(and the user) down that path. > > > >Audrey > > > > _______________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 10, 2001 Report Share Posted April 10, 2001 LOL... Audrey, as resident " SWMBO " I think it is refreshing to have someone come right out with their thoughts with me. I am by nature one of the most argumentative and stubborn beings you can imagine, and I have just about worn everyone I know out... no one will argue with me, except maybe Anu, my husband, and people who step in it without looking! <G> So apologies unnecessary. I would suspect that you'll find that the population here is generally very sympathetic to ecology and each other in large doses, and fairly far to the left of mainstream. I think that the folks we need to tread most lightly with are the people on the other end of the spectrum, who can be as belligerent as we are and are often also, unfortunately, keepers of the golden rule ala " The Wizard of Id " ... whoever has the gold makes the rules. As my mama used to say, you'll get a lot more flies with honey than with vinegar. It's a hard thing to figure, when to holler and when to sweet talk, but a good guage is to find out whether you're hollering for nothing first ;-) It used to be a lot easier to offend me than it is now. Maybe I am (*gasp*) maturing. Either way, I don't want to squash a good vent. Blessings, Crow " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " >audreylee > > > Re: Fire birds >Tue, 10 Apr 2001 20:03:02 -0000 > >Dear Crow, >I have to appologize for underestimating you. You seem to have a >pretty non-main-stream thought approach to many things, which I >appreciate. I hope I did not offend you. My tone was a result of being >ready to be annoyed at 'main-stream' thinkers who seem to be willing >to disregard and dis-respect the spirit in non-human beings. Having >gotten to know just a little bit about you from your postings here, I >should have known better than to even remotely include you among them. > >Namaste, >Audrey > > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 11, 2001 Report Share Posted April 11, 2001 Crow, Before my father died, I finally figured out what he meant by a 'friendly argument.' I'm so glad I did because it resulted in some of the most wonderful fun conversations I have ever had. As well as a friendship with him! And part of understanding and enjoying it was to remember to not take it personally, and to consider the ideas brought up. Just like brainstorming, sometimes it seems like nonsense at first but, if you just let it flow, often it comes around to the *answer!*. I'm glad you're here (there?) and glad to share with you. Audrey , " Caroline Abreu " <nrgbalance@h...> wrote: > LOL... Audrey, as resident " SWMBO " I think it is refreshing to have someone > come right out with their thoughts with me. I am by nature one of the most > argumentative and stubborn beings you can imagine, and I have just about > worn everyone I know out... no one will argue with me, except maybe Anu, my > husband, and people who step in it without looking! <G> > > So apologies unnecessary. I would suspect that you'll find that the > population here is generally very sympathetic to ecology and each other in > large doses, and fairly far to the left of mainstream. I think that the > folks we need to tread most lightly with are the people on the other end of > the spectrum, who can be as belligerent as we are and are often also, > unfortunately, keepers of the golden rule ala " The Wizard of Id " ... whoever > has the gold makes the rules. > > As my mama used to say, you'll get a lot more flies with honey than with > vinegar. It's a hard thing to figure, when to holler and when to sweet talk, > but a good guage is to find out whether you're hollering for nothing first > ;-) > > It used to be a lot easier to offend me than it is now. Maybe I am (*gasp*) > maturing. Either way, I don't want to squash a good vent. > > Blessings, > Crow > " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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