Abe: Moving mountains and Parting Oceans

[Guest guest]

" When you start adding the " whys " to what you want, then you really

begin to vibrate in concert with that which you are. And when you

begin to vibrate in concert with that which you are, oceans part,

mountains move, people come out of the woodwork to accommodate you. "

~Abe

 

------------------------------

The official Abraham site: www.abraham-hicks.com

[Guest guest]

Michelle Hughes, It's fun to see Abraham quoted in Bodymind. My wife and I

have enjoyed Abraham and his channel off and on over the years. The

underlying message sure is consistent ... about creating our own reality.

 

Rich Putman in Minnesota USA

[Guest guest]

rputman wrote:

 

> The underlying message sure is consistent ... about creating our own reality.

 

Rich,

 

I don't remember if it was you or someone else who questioned the idea of

interfering with karma/fate/destiny/whatever people call it but

I've been thinking about it, including the answers people gave here about

interfering or not, and the stories that illustrated their

points. I can't help thinking of how we can pretty much know for sure how

'fate' will interact if a child falls over a bridge into water

everytime. Any falls, spills, car crashes - will all come out the same way

except for a handful of " miracles " . If it were fate, then

sometimes a fall from a large building would make the person unharmed and

sometimes not. But usually the only way there is a 'miracle' is

if there is a bush or something else to break the fall. There are times when an

unexplainable miracle does happen, but that means that

'fate' would favor problems over miracles.

 

I believe that for the most part we create our reality but we are living in a

fallible, human, material world and things go wrong

sometimes. At that point, we either deal with it or it breaks us down. Usually

we fumble for a while and then we overcome it. I don't

think it gets much better than that. Some people strive for perfection, trying

to get to a point where they become totally enlightened

finally and never have to deal with these problems. Others give up completely

and blame it on a variety of things. I think we can control

some aspects of our lives, but others just happen because we're on earth. I'd

love to hear other people's opinions on this subject.

 

Linda

" DrNature "

http://www.drnature.net

[Guest guest]

>Dear Linda:

You and I are of very similar minds here. It's a real great theory to

think that we have total control of everything. Everything bad that has

happened we somehow have created therefor can be rid of. We choose our

karma, and its always good education.

But I think that defies the fact that there are other people in the world

who are also creating thier own reality, which might include stepping on

mine for a moment or two. There is such a strong movement in spirituality

lately, to feel we create it all, we are god, we can overcome any of it if

we can only just get spiritual enough to transend it, and if for any reason

we don't, then we fall into victum status, or non evolution or thats our

karma. This just doesn't align with what I've seen in relationship to other

people, much less me. Sometimes S___ happens.

This may be contraversial, but perhaps the inderpinnings of this

phylosophy is a " control drama " or a " power imperative " .

Let me give you an example.

As a child, I took on the role as the happy child, the one who was

responsible for making everyone else happy. I did the emotional work for

the family. As there was a vacumm in that area, I as the last born was

sucked into the job. Now, since it was my job, to dance and sing and

nurture everyone, I then naturally took responsibility when things didn't go

right. When my parents got divorced, I naturally assumed it was my fault,

since they didn't dispute that, I took it on. When a person was unhappy,

sick etc, I felt guilty. It wasn't till years later that my brother called

me on it. He said, you know, you just aren't all that powerful!!! Your

sense of over whelming responsibility is nothing more than an addiction to

the concept that you " just might be " powerful enough to control your world

and everyone in it. You choose now to be responsible and guilty if everyone

isn't happy, cause you choose to sustain the belief that you can control the

outcomes of other peoples happiness, wellness, etc. It just ain't so. My

parents, like drug pushers, allowed me to think I was responsible, and to

blame for things, so I'd take care of thier happiness, and I like a junkie,

became addicted to the power. And to a certain extent, to this day, I

opperate out of the model when I'm not being conscious of my agenda's. I'm

still trying to manage everyone's happiness, and cure all diseases, etc.

True freedom for me, was to realize that I was limited. That I don't have

to worry each morning when I wake up, if today I created my universe

correctly and it has all the appropriate eco system running in harmony. I

can relax knowing that the earth and its inhabitants is spinning in its own

sweet way without me lifting a finger. I just don't make it spin all by

myself anymore. :-)

Now this is a long way of saying, that each person has thier own work to

do, and each of us must share " some " of the work to help others, and that

somethings do just happen without us willing it, wanting it, or deserving

it. The belief that we create it all, can cure it all, and choose it's

outcome is a bit arrogant, and a need to control things that just can't be

controlled. It works well in theory untill your up against the really big

life crises, then it sorta falls apart.

As far as the truest sense of Karma goes, we can't know if the happiness

we're experiencing is pay back for a crap last life time, or the suffering

we have is for learning or payback for whatever. We just don't know. All

that karma really teaches us is that this is a school, and at the end your

given a pass fail, if you fail, you have to try again untill you get it

right. The trying again may be the falling off the building, but it also

might be, being the person in the position to catch the falling child, cause

you didn't in the last lifetime.

This is just my opinion however.

Sorry for the uncongruity of this post, I should never write at 3:00 in the

morning. But I feel so inspired if not literate! :-)

love,

connie

p.s. Please forgive my lack of spell checker. LOL

 

> I don't remember if it was you or someone else who questioned the idea of

> interfering with karma/fate/destiny/whatever people call it but

> I've been thinking about it, including the answers people gave here about

> interfering or not, and the stories that illustrated their

> points. I can't help thinking of how we can pretty much know for sure how

> 'fate' will interact if a child falls over a bridge into water

> everytime. Any falls, spills, car crashes - will all come out the same way

> except for a handful of " miracles " . If it were fate, then

> sometimes a fall from a large building would make the person unharmed and

> sometimes not. But usually the only way there is a 'miracle' is

> if there is a bush or something else to break the fall. There are times when

> an unexplainable miracle does happen, but that means that

> 'fate' would favor problems over miracles.

>

> I believe that for the most part we create our reality but we are living in a

> fallible, human, material world and things go wrong

> sometimes. At that point, we either deal with it or it breaks us down.

> Usually we fumble for a while and then we overcome it. I don't

> think it gets much better than that. Some people strive for perfection,

> trying to get to a point where they become totally enlightened

> finally and never have to deal with these problems. Others give up completely

> and blame it on a variety of things. I think we can control

> some aspects of our lives, but others just happen because we're on earth. I'd

> love to hear other people's opinions on this subject.

>

> Linda

> " DrNature "

[Guest guest]

Dear Connie,

 

MANY THANKS for the level-headed, balanced response in this post. We

have gone from taking little to no responsibility for our lives (victim

mentality) to an inflated approach to responsibility. The pendulum

swings! Maybe we can reach a midpoint that we are responsible in the

sense that we can make our decisions, that we can choose to be pro-active

instead of reactive, that we can choose love instead of hate, that we can

become compassionate instead of bitter, that we can choose to reach out

instead of withdrawing, that we can forgive instead of retaliating, and

that we CAN work on our mental images, etc. But to say we can totally

create our reality seems excessive.

 

However, I do believe that when images come from our deepest Self, God

Within, Holy Spirit, etc. we CAN manifest in due time what we visualize.

My best " life moves " have happened this way. We need to remember that

other people are also " visualizing " and this can get in the way of our

aims. (I happen to be a Christian and do believe that we can protect

ourselves with the Blood of Jesus, too, from much ill will against us.)

 

I had a fatal diagnosis over 20 years ago---believed it, grieved and

prepared to die. I did not feel led to fight it---but here I am---stable

and thriving and have overcome many obstacles since then. How to

explain? Just that this is much more complicated than meets the eye. We

do have power that we don't adequately tap into---but that power is also

limited. May we all learn to tap into that power and use it

appropriately.

 

God bless!

 

Celeste

[Guest guest]

Connie:

 

That was beautiful, thank you. Both my husband and I served that role in our

families, and things were very unusual in our early married life, as we played

" Chip and Dale " (after you... no, I'd never hear of it, after *you* LOL) We were

both so careful not to rock the boat, because of our past experiences and fears.

We eventually realized that the water doesn't have to be smooth to enjoy the

ride,

and that sacrifice, when it is necessary, doesn't mean martyrdom. We also

realized that we had a better boat than our families had, and learned to trust

it

;-) So we stopped being polite, and started being real.

 

If we had control over everything, we *would* be God. Here is an analogy that

someone gave me the other day that made sense to me... think of God as the

ocean,

and you as a cup. You can be filled with the water, the essence of the ocean,

but

you can never hold it all, and you are not the ocean. There are billions and

billions of other cups out there, and all of them are full of the ocean too,

part

of you, and part of God. How foolish we are, to imagine that although we carry

the sweet sea and its mysteries inside us, that we are the sea itself.

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

tink-im wrote:

 

> >Dear Linda:

> You and I are of very similar minds here. It's a real great theory to think

> that we have total control of everything. Everything bad that has happened we

> somehow have created therefor can be rid of. We choose our

> karma, and its always good education.

> But I think that defies the fact that there are other people in the world

who

> are also creating thier own reality, which might include stepping on mine for

a

> moment or two. There is such a strong movement in spirituality lately, to

feel

> we create it all, we are god, we can overcome any of it if we can only just

get

> spiritual enough to transend it, and if for any reason

> we don't, then we fall into victum status, or non evolution or thats our

karma.

> This just doesn't align with what I've seen in relationship to other

> people, much less me. Sometimes S___ happens.

> This may be contraversial, but perhaps the inderpinnings of this phylosophy

is

> a " control drama " or a " power imperative " .

 

--

Blessings,

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

--

[Guest guest]

Another Gem, Crow!

 

I, too, grew up in a family that refused to be real for fear of rocking

the rock. Intelligent, thinking individuals will disagree. Hooray for

the differences. If allowed to surface, they can keep us in

balance---and it is a much more exciting " ride " . Without honesty, there

is no intimacy---only shallow, superficial relationships, at

best---distance and alienation from self and others, at worst.

 

Your analogy of the ocean and the cup is right on also. You have of gift

of being able to communicate your thoughts clearly.

 

God bless.

 

Celeste

[Guest guest]

Celeste:

 

The ocean analogy made sense to me, because of the sentiment expressed with

" Namaste " ... that the spark of divinity in me recognizes that in others and

honors

it. I think that is one of the strongest keys to forgiveness and unconditional

love.

 

Our caution, in believing that we are God, is that we can't really believe that

everyone else is God, too, can we? My cat thinks she is a goddess, but that's

another story ;-)

 

I do think we have that spark, that essence, for a reason, and that we can have

great effects on our lives, bodies and the world around us with our actions and

attitude. I think dreams are important, goals are crucial, but magical thinking

and perfectionism can set us up for disillusionment and burnout.

 

If you watched " The Matrix " , there was that one character who decided that he

would rather live a life of pleasure and illusion than to accept and deal with

the

underlying reality of the matrix, which seemed unnecessarily harsh and difficult

to him. He made a " deal with the devil " to obtain that oblivion. At first, I

thought him a villain, but now I can see that he was frightened and weak, as we

all can be, in our little mortal bodies. We make those bargains all the time,

unconsciously, for our comfort and sanity. When we grow past the point where we

need those illusions to function, we can start deconstructing them and enjoying

being in our own skins.

 

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

celeste m sullivan wrote:

 

> Your analogy of the ocean and the cup is right on also. God bless.

>

> Celeste

[Guest guest]

HI Crow,

 

I love your posts. I agree heartily. We are in God; God is in us but

that doesn't equate that we are God.

 

Peace,

 

Celeste

[Guest guest]

Dear Celeste:

What a lovely post, and full of such inspiration and insight. I agree

with you that God has a big role in all of this, and sometimes what happens

to me just isn't my business!!! I know that sounds convoluted, but just

maybe theres a bigger plan. But of course I agree with you that attitude,

meditation and focused visualization and positive self talk and such make a

huge difference in most peoples lives. And they are tools which are not too

hard to learn. No matter how bad the circumstances, we can always improve

it, if for no other way, than how we choose to be about it.

Thanks again,

love,

connie

 

(I love everybody, and YOUR NEXT!)

 

 

www.whateverworkswellness.com

 

WhateverWorksWellness

> celeste m sullivan <csull3

>

> Fri, 27 Apr 2001 07:34:08 -0500

>

> Re: Re: Abe: Moving mountains and Parting Oceans

>

> Dear Connie,

>

> MANY THANKS for the level-headed, balanced response in this post. We

> have gone from taking little to no responsibility for our lives (victim

> mentality) to an inflated approach to responsibility. The pendulum

> swings! Maybe we can reach a midpoint that we are responsible in the

> sense that we can make our decisions, that we can choose to be pro-active

> instead of reactive, that we can choose love instead of hate, that we can

> become compassionate instead of bitter, that we can choose to reach out

> instead of withdrawing, that we can forgive instead of retaliating, and

> that we CAN work on our mental images, etc. But to say we can totally

> create our reality seems excessive.

>

> However, I do believe that when images come from our deepest Self, God

> Within, Holy Spirit, etc. we CAN manifest in due time what we visualize.

> My best " life moves " have happened this way. We need to remember that

> other people are also " visualizing " and this can get in the way of our

> aims. (I happen to be a Christian and do believe that we can protect

> ourselves with the Blood of Jesus, too, from much ill will against us.)

>

> I had a fatal diagnosis over 20 years ago---believed it, grieved and

> prepared to die. I did not feel led to fight it---but here I am---stable

> and thriving and have overcome many obstacles since then. How to

> explain? Just that this is much more complicated than meets the eye. We

> do have power that we don't adequately tap into---but that power is also

> limited. May we all learn to tap into that power and use it

> appropriately.

>

> God bless!

>

> Celeste

[Guest guest]

Dear Crow.

Oh I love the ocean metaphor. A wave is like an individual personality,

when it breaks on shore, its like an incarnation in human form, it

individuates. But when it pulls back into ocean, at death, it becomes one

with ocean again. It is NOT ocean in its totality, but ocean can not be

ocean without wave either. The particular wave I'm being this life time is

frothy and breaking on jagged rocks, but oh what a roar. LOL

This ocean metaphor of self and god, makes more sense to me than any other.

Thanks for reminding me.

love,

connie

> Caroline Abreu <carocrow

>

> Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:56:49 -0400

>

> Re: Re: Abe: Moving mountains and Parting Oceans

>

>

> That was beautiful, thank you. Both my husband and I served that role in our

> families, and things were very unusual in our early married life, as we played

> " Chip and Dale " (after you... no, I'd never hear of it, after *you* LOL) We

> were

> both so careful not to rock the boat, because of our past experiences and

> fears.

> We eventually realized that the water doesn't have to be smooth to enjoy the

> ride,

> and that sacrifice, when it is necessary, doesn't mean martyrdom. We also

> realized that we had a better boat than our families had, and learned to trust

> it

> ;-) So we stopped being polite, and started being real.

>

> If we had control over everything, we *would* be God. Here is an analogy that

> someone gave me the other day that made sense to me... think of God as the

> ocean,

> and you as a cup. You can be filled with the water, the essence of the ocean,

> but

> you can never hold it all, and you are not the ocean. There are billions and

> billions of other cups out there, and all of them are full of the ocean too,

> part

> of you, and part of God. How foolish we are, to imagine that although we

> carry

> the sweet sea and its mysteries inside us, that we are the sea itself.

>

> Blessings,

> Crow

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Connie,

 

It doesn't sound convoluted to me. There are so many variables in our

lives that we are not even aware of much less in control of---and I do

believe in a Divine Plan, the individuation process, or many other names

we could call it. Still, that is not the same as predetermination to me.

We need to discover who are and this needs to unfold in our lives. When

we are in synch with the God Within, our deepest (highest) Self, I do

believe that 'miraculous' things can happen, that we can be in the right

place at the right time, that wonders can manifest themselves in our

lives but this is a process that includes struggle, grief, true humility

as well as times of joy and success.

 

Peace,

 

Celeste

[Guest guest]

Connie wrote:

" ... this is a school, and at the end your given a pass fail, if you

fail, you have to try again untill you get it right. The trying again

may be the falling off the building, but it also might be, being the

person in the position to catch the falling child, .... "

 

Seen the movie " Groundhog Day " ?

Audrey

[Guest guest]

Dear Connie and Crow and everybody,

And I've long held the image of life/incarnation as being a rain-drop.

Falling back into the ocean is 'death,' where we rejoin the ALL.

Audrey

 

, tink-im <tink-im@c...> wrote:

> Dear Crow.

> Oh I love the ocean metaphor. A wave is like an individual

personality,

> when it breaks on shore, its like an incarnation in human form, it

> individuates. But when it pulls back into ocean, at death, it

becomes one

> with ocean again. It is NOT ocean in its totality, but ocean can

not be

> ocean without wave either. The particular wave I'm being this life

time is

> frothy and breaking on jagged rocks, but oh what a roar. LOL

> This ocean metaphor of self and god, makes more sense to me than any

other.

> Thanks for reminding me.

> love,

> connie

> > Caroline Abreu <carocrow@e...>

> >

> > Fri, 27 Apr 2001 09:56:49 -0400

> >

> > Re: Re: Abe: Moving mountains and Parting

Oceans

> >

> >

> > That was beautiful, thank you. Both my husband and I served that

role in our

> > families, and things were very unusual in our early married life,

as we played

> > " Chip and Dale " (after you... no, I'd never hear of it, after

*you* LOL) We

> > were

> > both so careful not to rock the boat, because of our past

experiences and

> > fears.

> > We eventually realized that the water doesn't have to be smooth to

enjoy the

> > ride,

> > and that sacrifice, when it is necessary, doesn't mean martyrdom.

We also

> > realized that we had a better boat than our families had, and

learned to trust

> > it

> > ;-) So we stopped being polite, and started being real.

> >

> > If we had control over everything, we *would* be God. Here is an

analogy that

> > someone gave me the other day that made sense to me... think of

God as the

> > ocean,

> > and you as a cup. You can be filled with the water, the essence

of the ocean,

> > but

> > you can never hold it all, and you are not the ocean. There are

billions and

> > billions of other cups out there, and all of them are full of the

ocean too,

> > part

> > of you, and part of God. How foolish we are, to imagine that

although we

> > carry

> > the sweet sea and its mysteries inside us, that we are the sea

itself.

> >

> > Blessings,

> > Crow

> >

[Guest guest]

I'm not trying to challenge you, but I've never been able to get around the

distinction between " every thing is part of (someone's) plan " and

predestination. Can you help me with this?

 

 

>celeste m sullivan <csull3

>

>

>Re: Re: Abe: Moving mountains and Parting Oceans

>Sat, 28 Apr 2001 08:06:37 -0500

>

>Hi Connie,

>

>It doesn't sound convoluted to me. There are so many variables in our

>lives that we are not even aware of much less in control of---and I do

>believe in a Divine Plan, the individuation process, or many other names

>we could call it. Still, that is not the same as predetermination to me.

> We need to discover who are and this needs to unfold in our lives. When

>we are in synch with the God Within, our deepest (highest) Self, I do

>believe that 'miraculous' things can happen, that we can be in the right

>place at the right time, that wonders can manifest themselves in our

>lives but this is a process that includes struggle, grief, true humility

>as well as times of joy and success.

>

>Peace,

>

>Celeste

 

_______________

Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

[Guest guest]

Dear Audrey:

Sure did, and he had to do it all in one day lived over and over. yikes.

love,

connie

 

> audreylee

>

> Mon, 30 Apr 2001 16:58:18 -0000

>

> Re: Abe: Moving mountains and Parting Oceans

>

> onnie wrote:

> " ... this is a school, and at the end your given a pass fail, if you

> fail, you have to try again untill you get it right. The trying again

> may be the falling off the building, but it also might be, being the

> person in the position to catch the falling child, .... "

>

> Seen the movie " Groundhog Day " ?

> Audrey

[Guest guest]

Dear Connie,

A day, a life - can't see as it makes too much difference; we have to

do it over and over again, until we *get it*.

Audrey

 

 

> Dear Audrey:

> Sure did, and he had to do it all in one day lived over and over.

yikes.

> love,

> connie

 

> > Seen the movie " Groundhog Day " ?

> > Audrey

 

> > connie wrote:

> > " ... this is a school, and at the end your given a pass fail, if

you

> > fail, you have to try again untill you get it right. The trying

again

> > may be the falling off the building, but it also might be, being

the

> > person in the position to catch the falling child, .... "

> >

[Guest guest]

Hi Ray,

 

I understand your question and it is one I have pondered often. The best

way I can explain it to myself as well as to you is that I do believe

there is an ideal plan in the universe that we can somehow tap into. For

most of us, I believe it is a process of trial and error, getting to know

ourselves, learning to get our ego in appropriate relationship with our

higher Self, Divine Wisdom, God within, Holy Spirit, etc. However, I

also believe that either through ignorance, stubbornness,

narrowmindedness, or outright defiance, we can also subvert this plan in

our lives. People like Jesus, Buddha, other 'great saints', I believe,

were in touch to a high degree with this Divine PLan and cooperated with

it as fully as possible. But we do have free will.

 

I hope this helps a little. I would welcome and be interested in others'

comments on the subject.

 

Peace,

 

Celeste

[Guest guest]

It may seem like a matter of semantics, but there is a difference

between a greater overall plan and predestination.

 

Predestination is a concept that precludes free choice, which we all

enjoy. I think of it this way... there may indeed be a lot of paths to

choose from, but in some ways they generally all end up in Rome. Not

necessarily in the same neighborhood in Rome, though ;-) We are fond

of the idea that we can plan and speculate on the future, when in fact

it is so fractal in nature that the best we can do is be

internally prepared by being centered and grounded, so that when we're

going with the flow we don't find we're up " s**t creek " without a

paddle! A large plan would have to take into consideration a large,

only partially predictable population that all enjoy free choice; I

don't have a mind big enough to wrap around that, but it's a good

argument for a Higher Power if there is such a plan... it would take a

great mind to design such a fantastic and constantly moving tapestry.

 

The problem with seeing our lives as predestined is the tendency to

make it an " out " for attitude and behavior, sort of an " it doesn't

matter what I do, fate rules my life " ... and that can lead to

irresponsible choices.

 

The other problem is fantasizing that we are in control of the

universe, when most of us are barely in charge of ourselves. That can

lead to new age guilt and overweening feelings of responsibility.

 

My own view of the universe is that since we have such limited

perspective, we should try to make what choices we have based on a

solid set of personal values and enjoy the ride, whether it's a

pre-planned or ad lib experience :-)

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

, " Ray Hunter " <rayhuntermt@h...> wrote:

> I'm not trying to challenge you, but I've never been able to get

around the

> distinction between " every thing is part of (someone's) plan " and

> predestination. Can you help me with this?

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi Audey,

 

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad they helped. It seems to me that

when we move beyond 'good vs. evil' choices (so to speak) we, then, must

choose between many different 'good' choices. As we discern more and

more clearly the'best for us' of the good choices, we become freer and

happier.

 

Peace,

 

Celeste

[Guest guest]

Celeste,

Oh, you have said this very well for me. I feel that there is a best

path and that, when I am following that personal path, I am happiest.

When I veer off that pre-set bliss path, I get more and more unhappy.

And it is a choice. My choice.

 

Hugs,

Audrey

 

 

, celeste m sullivan <csull3@j...> wrote:

I do

believe

> there is an ideal plan in the universe that we can somehow tap into.

For

> most of us, I believe it is a process of trial and error, getting to

know

> ourselves, learning to get our ego in appropriate relationship with

our

> higher Self, Divine Wisdom, God within, Holy Spirit, etc. However,

I

> also believe that either through ignorance, stubbornness,

> narrowmindedness, or outright defiance, we can also subvert this

plan in

> our lives. People like Jesus, Buddha, other 'great saints', I

believe,

> were in touch to a high degree with this Divine PLan and cooperated

with

> it as fully as possible. But we do have free will.

>

> I hope this helps a little. I would welcome and be interested in

others'

> comments on the subject.

>

> Peace,

>

> Celeste

[Guest guest]

Hi Celeste,

I try to look at it as 'Is this option useful to me now, or not

useful?' instead of good/bad, which can get confusing and emotionally

over-charged.

Hugs,

Audrey

 

, celeste m sullivan <csull3@j...> wrote:

> Hi Audey,

>

> Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad they helped. It seems to me

that

> when we move beyond 'good vs. evil' choices (so to speak) we, then,

must

> choose between many different 'good' choices. As we discern more

and

> more clearly the'best for us' of the good choices, we become freer

and

> happier.

>

> Peace,

>

> Celeste

[Guest guest]

That's certainly the way that I've always approached it. Personally, I think

that creation is more of a question of building an incredibly complex and

wonderful universe and then letting it go to see what happens to it. It's

possible to make a case for occaisonal intervention by God(s)(ess)(esses) in

some cases, but for the most part the fantastic number of variables in one's

life make anything possible without the need for any metaphysical

involvement. When I examine my life, I can see a number of moments where my

course was changed for the better. The question is, was this devine

intervention, or does it seem that way because it turned out the way it

turned out? I mean, if I hadn't survived, I wouldn't be here to talk about

how spooky it was that I didn't survive. I think it was Toynbee who said

that a skilled historian can make any event seem inevitable.

 

I once had a philosophy professor screw up my head for two weeks by claiming

that we have no free choice because we're limited by our previous choices. I

finally figured out that he was talking personally because I've always been

good at finding choices that others haven't. Our previous choices may remove

some options from consideration, but they only limit us if we choose to let

them.

 

One of the things I figured out while I was working through some emotional

problems complicated by alcohol, was that I can't control my life. I can

however, control how I react to it. Now, I just follow my path as best I

can. Perhaps that's the wisdom of acceptance, perhaps it's just a feeling

that I wouldn't be this person I'm reasonably happy with if I hadn't been

some of the places I have.

 

It's all good,

Ray

 

 

> " Caroline Abreu " <nrgbalance

>

>

> Re: Abe: Moving mountains and Parting Oceans

>Wed, 02 May 2001 21:43:29 -0000

>

>It may seem like a matter of semantics, but there is a difference

>between a greater overall plan and predestination.

>

>Predestination is a concept that precludes free choice, which we all

>enjoy. I think of it this way... there may indeed be a lot of paths to

>choose from, but in some ways they generally all end up in Rome. Not

>necessarily in the same neighborhood in Rome, though ;-) We are fond

>of the idea that we can plan and speculate on the future, when in fact

>it is so fractal in nature that the best we can do is be

>internally prepared by being centered and grounded, so that when we're

>going with the flow we don't find we're up " s**t creek " without a

>paddle! A large plan would have to take into consideration a large,

>only partially predictable population that all enjoy free choice; I

>don't have a mind big enough to wrap around that, but it's a good

>argument for a Higher Power if there is such a plan... it would take a

>great mind to design such a fantastic and constantly moving tapestry.

>

>The problem with seeing our lives as predestined is the tendency to

>make it an " out " for attitude and behavior, sort of an " it doesn't

>matter what I do, fate rules my life " ... and that can lead to

>irresponsible choices.

>

>The other problem is fantasizing that we are in control of the

>universe, when most of us are barely in charge of ourselves. That can

>lead to new age guilt and overweening feelings of responsibility.

>

>My own view of the universe is that since we have such limited

>perspective, we should try to make what choices we have based on a

>solid set of personal values and enjoy the ride, whether it's a

>pre-planned or ad lib experience :-)

>

>Blessings,

>Crow

>

 

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[Guest guest]

Ray:

 

I agree with you... it's all good... eventually ;-)

 

I think your philosophy professor was being unnecessarily pessimistic and

limiting; there is always more than one option, though the alternatives may not

all be palatable or easy ones.

 

Crow

 

Ray Hunter wrote:

 

> I once had a philosophy professor screw up my head for two weeks by claiming

> that we have no free choice because we're limited by our previous choices. I

> finally figured out that he was talking personally because I've always been

good

> at finding choices that others haven't. Our previous choices may remove

> some options from consideration, but they only limit us if we choose to let

> them.

>

> It's all good,

> Ray