Infallible Masters

[Guest guest]

Hi All:

 

I think that you folks are doing really well with this conversation about

semantics and differing paths. I think what is most important when looking at

something or someone that I perceive as different is to avoid jumping to the

conclusion that they are wrong. I don't really believe in total 'wrongs', since

I

think there is a little bit of truth in everything, and that is what is so

confusing to seekers.

 

I have met and been exposed to many kinds of teachers in my life; some have been

pleasant, some unpleasant; some have been wise, some have been foolish; some

have

been quiet, some loquacious; some were reticent of their gifts, while others

were

outright bragadocious. I think that in the long run I have learned something

from

all of them, and hope to always remain open to teachers that come into my life.

However, as a person I am not a follower, and I am not prone to worshipping my

teachers. As my guides told me once in a journey, you listen to the lesson, not

the teacher. If you are listening to the teacher you are missing the lesson.

 

Ideally, a teacher should be a guide, not a leader.

 

A big bell goes off in my head when I hear someone describe gushingly some

wonderful person who is " all that and a bag of chips " , able to leap tall

buildings

in a single bound, balance a pile of books on their head and heal the masses

while

feeding the hungry and initiating world peace. My question is, that if a person

is truly gifted in this way, why they tell others they are stifling their gifts

and make it look like a real favor that they are condescending to teach, heal,

whatever (which is an insult to the giver of the gifts... remember Marianne

Williamson's inspirational speech about fearing our light?) . I don't mind the

idea of a person being an avatar... but I don't think an avatar would brag about

it. Maybe that is my hang up. What do you think?

 

I am also suspicious of anyone who will tell people that they can do something

that other people are not able to do. That is just openly fallacious. If they

can do it, someone else probably has, several times before breakfast. Even

Jesus

said that his disciples were capable of performing the same, and even greater

miracles, than he did. Throwing chi and spiritual intimidation are not good

examples of miracles, either. They are good examples of how a person can

manipulate energy. It doesn't take a very advanced or 'positive' person to do

that.

 

I don't think that mixing ego power with teaching is such a good mix, unless the

teacher is interested in a following of passive and adoring sheep who are happy

to

be limited and stay in awe of the teacher. The bookshelves are lined with the

tales of such students who woke up from the bedazzlement and walked away from

those situations, often being harassed, ostracised or cursed for it. Yes, it is

good to have some level of respect, and even obedience in some cases, for a

teacher to be effective... but the student must always have room to question and

grow away from the teacher; that is natural, and should be the goal of the

teacher, to encourage growth and independent thought in the student.

 

There is an old saying that a boy finally grows up when he can knock his old man

down. Seeing that figuratively, I view that as organic... that we are meant to

develop and exceed the potential of our 'parents', not simply to model them or

defer to them.

 

That said, I am wondering how many of you may have had an experience with a

teacher/master/healer/whatever who was very charismatic and demanded a lot from

you 'for your own good' while doing very little that was productive for your

personal growth or thinking processes. How many of you have had an experience

with a teacher that confused you and made you feel negative about yourself? How

many of you have listened to someone tell you that they had the only truth?

 

What did you learn from that experience?

 

--

Blessings,

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

--

--

Caroline " Crow " Abreu

Hypnotherapy * Healing Touch * Reiki * Chios

Shamanic Journeywork * Ceremony Development

AIM: CaroCrow ... : NRGbalance

URL: http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance

 

Ask me a Stress Management question:

http://expertprofile./nrgbalance?.tpid=383008974

 

Intuitive Readings:

http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance/readings.html

 

" We see things not as they are but as we are. " The Talmud

 

" A master is like an ocean. Ocean is there, readily available.

It does not reject anybody. " Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

 

When seeking a guide for a path, choose someone who also walks it.

[Guest guest]

PS:

 

did you see the movie tiger-dragon

 

(Eng li)

 

the heroine grows when she seperates mentally from her old teacher....

 

 

----

this subject burns in my bones.

[Guest guest]

Anat:

 

I'm probably the last person in America not to have seen Crouching Tiger/Hidden

Dragon yet. My husband doesn't

like to go to the movie theater for some reason, and even I find it difficult to

sit still for more than an hour;

as a result, in all the years we've been together we've only been once, and that

on a social outing with another

couple we were visiting ;-)

 

So I have resolved myself to see it on the small screen on DVD with a big bowl

of husband-made popcorn. I look

forward to it, and your 'teaser' about the teacher/student relationship makes it

even more interesting.

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

pine wrote:

 

> PS:

>

> did you see the movie tiger-dragon

>

> (Eng li)

>

> the heroine grows when she seperates mentally from her old teacher....

>

> ----

> this subject burns in my bones.

>

> ****************************************

[Guest guest]

Crow,

 

I watched Crouching Tiger on DVD. Its stunningly beautiful.

 

As for the Master issue, I'm learning feng shui from a Master. This was a

completely new situation for me, I've spent many years with a love for the

Goddess, and to find myself in a situation like this, where I wanted the

info, but had to plough through the hierarchical Chinese tradition, which

was a great lesson for me. This issue for me is in no way a reflection of

the teacher, he's wonderful, he delights in seeing women become masters, he

teaches us to follow our intuition and not trust anything we learn without

experimenting for ourselves. He's empowering, not disempowering. My issues

were with my father, and if I didn't learn this lesson then I would have

transferred my unhealed pain onto him and rejected his teaching. Besides,

when the student is ready the teacher will appear.

 

Kate

[Guest guest]

Beautifully written Kate... =)

 

-A.L.

 

> Kate Strong <kates

>

> Thu, 24 May 2001 08:20:07 +1200

>

> Re: Infallible Masters

>

> Crow,

>

> I watched Crouching Tiger on DVD. Its stunningly beautiful.

>

> As for the Master issue, I'm learning feng shui from a Master. This was a

> completely new situation for me, I've spent many years with a love for the

> Goddess, and to find myself in a situation like this, where I wanted the

> info, but had to plough through the hierarchical Chinese tradition, which

> was a great lesson for me. This issue for me is in no way a reflection of

> the teacher, he's wonderful, he delights in seeing women become masters, he

> teaches us to follow our intuition and not trust anything we learn without

> experimenting for ourselves. He's empowering, not disempowering. My issues

> were with my father, and if I didn't learn this lesson then I would have

> transferred my unhealed pain onto him and rejected his teaching. Besides,

> when the student is ready the teacher will appear.

>

> Kate

>

>

> ****************************************

> Visit the community page:

> For administrative problems -owner

> To , -

>

> All messages, files and archives of this forum are copyright of the

> group and the individual authors.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Kate:

 

That is exactly what I am speaking of; when the teacher is in the

right place and the student is in the right place, growth happens.

 

LOL... sometimes a teacher appears and we don't learn what we set out

to learn. That may be, as in some of the cases we have discussed,

because there is a " need " in either the teacher or the student that

draws them together. Then, like a dysfunctional love relationship, the

results can be less than ideal ;-) And lots of times, in both cases,

it is a repetitive behavior born of a previous experience that fixed a

perpetuating idea. Like you said, if you had not healed your

relationship with your father, you might always repeat that by drawing

people to you who you could relive the dynamic with.

 

The old saying about teachers and students can be a little confusing,

also, as we can leap to conclusions and assume that we have found a

perfect person... and none of those exist. The same is true of

" looking for love " , which we often do " in all the wrong places " <G>

 

I think it is good for a teacher to challenge the student, and even to

confront them if there is a potential for insight and growth. I do not

think that it is useful for a teacher to " break down " the student by

destroying their self esteem or building an image of themselves as

more powerful, aware and enlightened in order to intimidate or elicit

awe. That can be brainwashing. There is a fine line there. I have seen

some of my teachers do remarkable things, but most of them were not

grandstanding or trying to impress anyone; usually it was an example

of potential that they were trying to display, as in, " See what you

can do with practice " .

 

I'm glad that you are managing well in your relationship with your

current teacher, and that you are able to get your lessons from the

relationship. That is what it is all about.

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

 

 

, Kate Strong <kates@i...> wrote:

> Crow,

>

> I watched Crouching Tiger on DVD. Its stunningly beautiful.

>

> As for the Master issue, I'm learning feng shui from a Master. This

was a

> completely new situation for me, I've spent many years with a love

for the

> Goddess, and to find myself in a situation like this, where I wanted

the

> info, but had to plough through the hierarchical Chinese tradition,

which

> was a great lesson for me. This issue for me is in no way a

reflection of

> the teacher, he's wonderful, he delights in seeing women become

masters, he

> teaches us to follow our intuition and not trust anything we learn

without

> experimenting for ourselves. He's empowering, not disempowering. My

issues

> were with my father, and if I didn't learn this lesson then I would

have

> transferred my unhealed pain onto him and rejected his teaching.

Besides,

> when the student is ready the teacher will appear.

>

> Kate

[Guest guest]

Why thank you Anne Louise.

 

 

Kate

 

At 10:14 PM 5/23/01 +0100, you wrote:

>Beautifully written Kate... =)

>

>-A.L.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thanks Crow. I have to say I REALLY enjoy reading your posts, you're a very

wise woman.

 

For me everyone has something to teach me about myself. Even if its the

ability to say no. Or see you later. I don't really attract people now who

teach me lessons about how to deal with abuse. When I left my husband and

walked away, my need to be treated with respect came to the fore, and my

energy doesn't attract those people anymore. But, love for me is the

unfamiliar and its just as hard to learn how to deal with it as it was

about hate. Maybe its harder because of the hate.

 

Kate

 

At 10:00 PM 5/23/01 +0000, you wrote:

>I'm glad that you are managing well in your relationship with your

>current teacher, and that you are able to get your lessons from the

>relationship. That is what it is all about.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I had a situation that was more romantic in nature,

but definitely falls along the lines of following what

I thought to be an infallible master. It was the most

devastating experience of my life, and perhaps in the

end, the thing I have learned the most from [thus

far].

 

I was 22/23 and still at the point in [my] life where

I was seeking the " perfect " person rather than a

fulfilling _relationship_. He was more independent

than anyone I had ever known, and more learned and

knowledgeable. He had a way of being very direct and

right about everything, especially " the truth " . I

thought his independence, knowledge of philosophy,

superior reasoning skills, and articulateness made him

a truly superior being. So I decided to learn from

him. I tried to become more intellectual, I tried to

be as judgemental of and detached from everything as

he was. I began to question my own judgement and my

own abilities. But something more subtle was at work

too, I began to feel that without his approval I was

worthless, and for him to keep his superiority I had

to be somewhat useless, or atleast never truly

approaching his level.

 

Things got very complicated, he needed me as much as I

needed him, in a sort of sick co-dependent way. In

the end, similar to Anat's situation with her guru, he

exploded (maybe imploded is a better term) when i

wanted leave. When I made a move to leave, he curled

up in my arms and cried like a baby, telling me that i

was the definition of truth and beauty. a few weeks

later in a desperate rage he told me i could never

mean as much to him as his books (he was a collector)

and then violently cleared his bookshelf in one

swooping motion that sent them all to the floor. I

left him.

 

What I learned was that marking the world in terms of

superior and inferior only makes you judgemental,

closeminded and unloving. What I found most

remarkable was that for me, the real meaning in the

world is through our connections with other people and

our ability to love others, " deserving " or not. With

him, people don't count at all. Everything was logic,

love must be earned and love was only valid coming

from an individual that met with certain standards.

Through my break with him, I've learned to value what

people have to offer, whether it be up to exacting

standards or not. And in this way I have escaped the

sense of isolation that he has closed around himself.

 

-Carla

 

 

>

> That said, I am wondering how many of you may have

> had an experience with a

> teacher/master/healer/whatever who was very

> charismatic and demanded a lot from

> you 'for your own good' while doing very little that

> was productive for your

> personal growth or thinking processes. How many of

> you have had an experience

> with a teacher that confused you and made you feel

> negative about yourself? How

> many of you have listened to someone tell you that

> they had the only truth?

>

> What did you learn from that experience?

>

> --

> Blessings,

> Crow

> " Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

> --

> --

> Caroline " Crow " Abreu

> Hypnotherapy * Healing Touch * Reiki * Chios

> Shamanic Journeywork * Ceremony Development

> AIM: CaroCrow ... : NRGbalance

> URL: http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance

>

> Ask me a Stress Management question:

>

http://expertprofile./nrgbalance?.tpid=383008974

>

> Intuitive Readings:

> http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance/readings.html

>

> " We see things not as they are but as we are. " The

> Talmud

>

> " A master is like an ocean. Ocean is there, readily

> available.

> It does not reject anybody. " Sri Sri Ravi Shankar

>

> When seeking a guide for a path, choose someone who

> also walks it.

>

>

>

 

 

=====

_______

X is the answer!

_______

 

 

 

Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions./

[Guest guest]

Crow,

 

You're not the last person! I have not seen it

either, and like you I tend to avoid the movie

theater. I'm waiting for DVD.

 

Too many people have mentioned this movie for it to go

unseen, and i can usually go without seeing pretty

much everything considered a must-see.

 

-Carla

 

 

 

--- Caroline Abreu <carocrow wrote:

> Anat:

>

> I'm probably the last person in America not to have

> seen Crouching Tiger/Hidden Dragon yet. My husband

> doesn't

> like to go to the movie theater for some reason, and

> even I find it difficult to sit still for more than

> an hour;

> as a result, in all the years we've been together

> we've only been once, and that on a social outing

> with another

> couple we were visiting ;-)

>

> So I have resolved myself to see it on the small

> screen on DVD with a big bowl of husband-made

> popcorn. I look

> forward to it, and your 'teaser' about the

> teacher/student relationship makes it even more

> interesting.

>

> Blessings,

> Crow

>

> pine wrote:

>

> > PS:

> >

> > did you see the movie tiger-dragon

> >

> > (Eng li)

> >

> > the heroine grows when she seperates mentally from

> her old teacher....

> >

> > ----

> > this subject burns in my bones.

> >

> > ****************************************

>

>

 

 

=====

_______

X is the answer!

_______

 

 

 

Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions./

[Guest guest]

>My first important charismatic leader tried to challange me to by poiting out

my insecurities and stupidness publically, telling me I'd never be a good

leader/trainer because of them, and thus should basically fallow him or

someone. What happened, is that within 3 days, I led all of his students in

a walk out of his program. There were 26 of us for a 1 week in house

intensive training program, for which each of us paid over $2000.00 each

for. But we all walked out on him, forcing him to change his methods

totally. He did, but not happily. One year later, I had his job of

training the trainers, and he no longer worked for the insitute. I did it

to spite him, and as such this jerk, now goes down in my personal history of

one of the greatest teachers I ever had. He would hate knowing that, as I

got him fired, and he never really wanted me to succeed. He just wanted to

insult me for being weak. So I learned the best lesson from the worse

teacher.

love

connie

>

> That said, I am wondering how many of you may have had an experience with a

> teacher/master/healer/whatever who was very charismatic and demanded a lot

> from

> you 'for your own good' while doing very little that was productive for your

> personal growth or thinking processes. How many of you have had an experience

> with a teacher that confused you and made you feel negative about yourself?

> How

> many of you have listened to someone tell you that they had the only truth?

>

> What did you learn from that experience?

[Guest guest]

> Dear Carla:

What a coincidence, I was once married to this guy too. LOL

Boy, he sure gets around. :-) Isn't it tiring to have to be the stupid

stable one?

Now I'm brilliant, and I didn't have to read one more book, just hang with

the right people. LOLOL

love

connie

>

> I had a situation that was more romantic in nature,

> but definitely falls along the lines of following what

> I thought to be an infallible master. It was the most

> devastating experience of my life, and perhaps in the

> end, the thing I have learned the most from [thus

> far].

>

> I was 22/23 and still at the point in [my] life where

> I was seeking the " perfect " person rather than a

> fulfilling _relationship_. He was more independent

> than anyone I had ever known, and more learned and

> knowledgeable. He had a way of being very direct and

> right about everything, especially " the truth " . I

> thought his independence, knowledge of philosophy,

> superior reasoning skills, and articulateness made him

> a truly superior being. So I decided to learn from

> him. I tried to become more intellectual, I tried to

> be as judgemental of and detached from everything as

> he was. I began to question my own judgement and my

> own abilities. But something more subtle was at work

> too, I began to feel that without his approval I was

> worthless, and for him to keep his superiority I had

> to be somewhat useless, or atleast never truly

> approaching his level.

>

> Things got very complicated, he needed me as much as I

> needed him, in a sort of sick co-dependent way. In

> the end, similar to Anat's situation with her guru, he

> exploded (maybe imploded is a better term) when i

> wanted leave. When I made a move to leave, he curled

> up in my arms and cried like a baby, telling me that i

> was the definition of truth and beauty. a few weeks

> later in a desperate rage he told me i could never

> mean as much to him as his books (he was a collector)

> and then violently cleared his bookshelf in one

> swooping motion that sent them all to the floor. I

> left him.

>

> What I learned was that marking the world in terms of

> superior and inferior only makes you judgemental,

> closeminded and unloving. What I found most

> remarkable was that for me, the real meaning in the

> world is through our connections with other people and

> our ability to love others, " deserving " or not. With

> him, people don't count at all. Everything was logic,

> love must be earned and love was only valid coming

> from an individual that met with certain standards.

> Through my break with him, I've learned to value what

> people have to offer, whether it be up to exacting

> standards or not. And in this way I have escaped the

> sense of isolation that he has closed around himself.

>

> -Carla

>

[Guest guest]

--- tink-im <tink-im wrote:

Connie:

 

Definitely! It sure makes you edgy around strong

people in the future though. It's tough to find the

right balance.

 

I'm glad you were able to move through the situation

too!

 

-Carla

 

 

>

> > Dear Carla:

> What a coincidence, I was once married to this guy

> too. LOL

> Boy, he sure gets around. :-) Isn't it tiring to

> have to be the stupid

> stable one?

> Now I'm brilliant, and I didn't have to read one

> more book, just hang with

> the right people. LOLOL

> love

> connie

> >

>

 

=====

_______

X is the answer!

_______

 

 

 

Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices

http://auctions./

[Guest guest]

Dear Carla:

What I did is created an affirmation, that the only men I'll find

attractive are the very nicest people. If your only attracted to nice men,

your bound to fall in love with one of them. A nice and kind man is the

greatest kind of strong.

As soon as I sent out that affirmation, I met my husband within 4 months,

and he is the nicest man I've ever met. It was hard to get used to at

first, I kept expecting the other shoe to drop.

Keep the faith.

love

connie

 

> Carla Romaine <oelcirac

>

> Tue, 29 May 2001 12:45:08 -0700 (PDT)

>

> Re: Infallible Masters

>

> --- tink-im <tink-im wrote:

> Connie:

>

> Definitely! It sure makes you edgy around strong

> people in the future though. It's tough to find the

> right balance.

>

> I'm glad you were able to move through the situation

> too!

>

> -Carla

>

[Guest guest]

Connie and everyone,

 

Yes. After a long time period, I've met someone very

kind, but I'm finding it difficult. Even though he is

different, I still find myself wanting out. It's as

though my natural response has become to want out of

any relationship I get myself into, good or bad.

 

It has the strangest effect. I feel like a caged

animal inside and out. I keep having the sensation of

wanting to run, literally and figuratively and

something prevents me in both arenas. I keep thinking

that if my body felt free, my mind would not struggle

so hard to push the relationship away. And vice

versa--if the relationship would go away, i could feel

more free physically. this correlation is not really

" true " , it's not as though this man prevents me from

doing anything physically, but I feel like the

excessive amounts of time spent with him produce the

same effect.

 

-Carla

 

 

--- tink-im <tink-im wrote:

> Dear Carla:

> What I did is created an affirmation, that the

> only men I'll find

> attractive are the very nicest people. If your only

> attracted to nice men,

> your bound to fall in love with one of them. A nice

> and kind man is the

> greatest kind of strong.

> As soon as I sent out that affirmation, I met my

> husband within 4 months,

> and he is the nicest man I've ever met. It was hard

> to get used to at

> first, I kept expecting the other shoe to drop.

> Keep the faith.

> love

> connie

>

> > Carla Romaine <oelcirac

> >

> > Tue, 29 May 2001 12:45:08 -0700 (PDT)

> >

> > Re: Infallible Masters

> >

> > --- tink-im <tink-im wrote:

> > Connie:

> >

> > Definitely! It sure makes you edgy around strong

> > people in the future though. It's tough to find

> the

> > right balance.

> >

> > I'm glad you were able to move through the

> situation

> > too!

> >

> > -Carla

> >

>

>

 

 

=====

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X is the answer!

_______

 

 

 

Get personalized email addresses from Mail - only $35

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[Guest guest]

Dear Carla;

 

What part of you feels that it is undeserving of this or any positive

relationship?

 

What do you get out of this pattern of rejecting/being rejected?

 

What is it that you would need in order to allow yourself to feel comfortable in

this or any other relationship?

 

Just musing...

 

F

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Carla:

Maybe you just havn't met the " right " " nice " person.

Unless this is how you feel in every relationship. In which case you need

to look at that closer. Is it the man that makes you feel caged, or

relationships which makes you feel that way? Or perhaps its the timing, too

much too fast.?

But in any event you can't ignore such feelings. They were certainly

sabatage the relationship eventually and hurt the " nice " man.

Just some questions meant for you to ask yourself.

love,

connie

 

 

 

>

>

> Yes. After a long time period, I've met someone very

> kind, but I'm finding it difficult. Even though he is

> different, I still find myself wanting out. It's as

> though my natural response has become to want out of

> any relationship I get myself into, good or bad.

>

> It has the strangest effect. I feel like a caged

> animal inside and out. I keep having the sensation of

> wanting to run, literally and figuratively and

> something prevents me in both arenas. I keep thinking

> that if my body felt free, my mind would not struggle

> so hard to push the relationship away. And vice

> versa--if the relationship would go away, i could feel

> more free physically. this correlation is not really

> " true " , it's not as though this man prevents me from

> doing anything physically, but I feel like the

> excessive amounts of time spent with him produce the

> same effect.

>

> -Carla

>

[Guest guest]

Linda wrote:

<< There are supposed beings who are above everything earthly and came back

here solely to teach us, and when they start having their own physical

problems or other problems, the students are told that the master is taking

on the pains of the people they are teaching. They are told that now that the

master has developed cancer, it means they themselves won't get it. ... >>

 

A saying that tickles me comes to mind: " Would you take your car to a

mechanic who couldn't fix his own? "

 

Rich Putman in Minnesota USA

 

Speaking of stuff that " tickles me " ...

Sign in a Veterinarian's waiting room: " Be back in 5 minutes. Sit! Stay! "

 

Would you like to see testimonies about Ear infections, Eczema, Enlarged

Prostate, Epilepsy? Write rputman

[Guest guest]

And of course, if we've been raised to believe that 'for every

action there is an equal and opposite reaction' means that every

emotion we have will be validated, every action we make will be

appreciated, if we are nice to people they will be nice to us and

every time we love someone they will love us back... well, then,

we have been set up for a great deal of disappointment. What we

do must be its own reward in order for us to be happy; we can't

rely on others to complete us or satisfy us... our parents, our

mates, our children, our friends or our teachers

 

Dear Crow,

Thank you so much for writing the above. Even though I know the topic is

infallible masters, I resonated with what you wrote in relation to some of my

family and found your observations very insightful. Just wanted to let you know

how much I appreciated this!

 

Many blessings,

Laurie