Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 crow i wanted to shout Amen every second sentence. i hardly finished reading the post out of excitement. what i dont understand is how you could learn from bragging teachers? (except " how not to be " ). As a sag-tiger (cats do not leave in groups except cheetas) i detest guruism of any kind. i've learned to recognize- immediately- gurus - i can smell them - like breathing - even if the guru is pretending " humble " . that's why i don't like constitutional religions with priests and rabbies an kadies... gurus may be very attractive. charisma is attractive. but it is a false light. i learned to be attracted to simple people with no special knowledge or skill. while reading your post i had a feeling that may be you onced experienced such an experience of " tunning to much to the teacher and not to the lesson " forgive me if i am wrong. I experienced such an experience 1.5 years ago. it was a painful lesson but it made me grow. when we are in adversity we may seek some support. and what is better than an " incredible " person - who can do bloody amazing things?/... it's so magnetic. i participated in a kong-fu class, the coach was a guru, clever, manipulative, bullying shouting, bossy, abusive (to the sheep in the class - never to me),full of ego, talking all the time. he was an artist in maritial arts and he did say wise ideas but i objected him with every cell of my brain - yet fell an enormous attraction to his charisma. we played a mad dance (love-hate and ego clash) with each other untill i had a dream (in which i am drowning with a baby). the morning after i called him and asked to quit the class. he started to cry - the big hard macho became spongy to my astonishment. it frightened me. the crying it was painful to break from the addiction to that group-guruism saga but it taught me to avoid charismatic people, look at them differently, beware of them, and instead of attraction i now feel kind of compassion (pity?) to them. i even wrote a novel about that saga. I'DE LIKE TO HEAR YOUR INTERPRETATION TO THE STORY. Anat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Anat: I see the relationship can be like obsessive love; for the teacher there is this wonderful flow of adoration and energy from people who worship them as infallible. For the student there is a great temptation to let go of personal responsibility by entrusting their soul to this person's control. Some of these teachers are energy vampires. Some of these teachers are egomaniacs. Some, I think, are merely delusional. In rare instances, there are charismatic people who do not have an agenda, and they are usually reluctant to be followed at all. Your experience reinforces for me how important a position the student serves to a teacher like this. For them, they are less important if they do not have an audience. You asked me what I have personally learned from this kind of teacher. Yes, " how not to be " ranks high on the list, I'll admit. But that was the main lesson I learned from focusing on the teacher rather than the lesson. In other situations, I was able to forgive the teachers and allow them to be where they are while I spent my time with them focusing on what they did have to offer me in the line of useful information and skills, and even periodic insights. Like you said, Anat, having compassion for them made a lot of difference, where before I felt a lot of impatience, indignation and anger towards them after the 'honeymoon' period wore off. The best lies contain a seed of truth. If you seek the truth you will not turn away from the lies, but examine their hearts for the seed. That is not to say you will " buy the lie " but you can still profit from the experience if you maintain awareness. Anyone else? Crow PS: I'll bet your book is very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 Guru translated means teacher. Some teachers are good. Some aren't rusty pine <pine Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:24 AM Re: why i detest guruism? >crow > > >i wanted to shout Amen every second sentence. i hardly finished reading the >post >out of excitement. >what i dont understand is how you could learn from bragging teachers? >(except " how not to be " ). > >As a sag-tiger (cats do not leave in groups except cheetas) i detest guruism >of any kind. i've learned to recognize- immediately- >gurus - i can smell them - like breathing - even if the guru is pretending > " humble " . >that's why i don't like constitutional religions with priests and rabbies an >kadies... > > >gurus may be very attractive. charisma is attractive. but it is >a false light. i learned to be attracted to simple people with no special >knowledge or skill. > >while reading your post i had a feeling that may be you onced experienced >such an experience of " tunning to much to the teacher and not to the lesson " >forgive me if i am wrong. > >I experienced such an experience 1.5 years ago. it was a painful lesson but >it made me grow. when we are in adversity we may seek some support. and what >is better than an > " incredible " person - who can do bloody amazing things?/... >it's so magnetic. > >i participated in a kong-fu class, the coach was a guru, clever, >manipulative, bullying >shouting, bossy, abusive (to the sheep in the class - never to me),full of >ego, talking all the time. he was an artist in maritial arts and he did say >wise ideas but i objected him with every cell of my brain - yet fell an >enormous attraction >to his charisma. we played a mad dance (love-hate and ego clash) with each >other untill i had a dream (in which i am drowning with a baby). the morning >after >i called him and asked to quit the class. he started to cry - the big hard >macho >became spongy to my astonishment. it frightened me. the crying > >it was painful to break from the addiction to that group-guruism saga but it >taught me to avoid charismatic people, look at them differently, beware of >them, and instead of attraction i now feel kind of compassion (pity?) to >them. > > > i even wrote a novel about that saga. I'DE LIKE TO HEAR YOUR >INTERPRETATION TO THE STORY. > >Anat > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 I'm not to keen on playing follow the leader, although finially at my age, I've realized the value in recognizing and learning from my elders. For thier sake as well as my own. As far as giving my power over to someone else who claims to " have it " gives me the creeps. There are too many instances where even the holiest of people have fallen from grace due to the adulation of thier followers. To give power to a person like that, is to tempt them with misuse of power. But, in fairness, I've seen people fall down in front of the Dalie Lama and the Pope and neither seem the worse for wear. So I guess I need to look at what it is the leader is asking from the student, in order to know if the leader is any good. If the bowing is out of respect and tradition rather than submissiveness, thats a different matter. But niether the Dalai Lama or the Pope suggest that they have the only answer, they both honor other religions and cultures, and make great attempts to unify these religions. Neither speaks of being enlightened or holy themselves, or of having the " truth " . They are both more humble men. Now many people may not believe this of the Pope, but if you ever get a chance to read his books, you'll see what I mean. A great spiritual leader attempts to unify not separate. just my opinion. love, connie (I > Anyone else? > Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 crow: if i may i'de like to add another thing in this subject. I'm aftraid it's not polite to write here all the details of the story but here are some more sights i learned: 1. remember i asked the group some days ago about the gap beteween knowing and acting? In this case, when i attended the class for more than a year (the honey moon paseed after 4 months) - i knew clearly in my rtional side rthat i should leave the place. that it's not benefiting my health. i was very much obssesed with that guru, thinking always how to " win " him and playing a game i am not interested in internally (power, ego,,,,) still i did not act and leave our of innertia, addiction, attraction to the charisma etc. the critical move (change) happened after a significant dream ( and you always know when it is significant) . it happened on dawn and i immediately knew what i have to do. i could not ignore the sacred dream that the Lord sent me. i thought it would be not right to ignore such a sign from the universe. so i listened to it and act. so may be the missing gap is something like a dream. 2. this experience sharpened my awareness to be on guard, now whern i attend maritial arts groups i try to keep a good distance between me and the teacher. i let him /her understand that i am after the contents,,,, and that i have no interest in his personality/life and whatsoever. i became suspicious and wary to the very beginnig signs of their intertest in me. i try to be a background,,,, not the foreground,,, to be gray.... not pink. and guess what - it is fun even more,,, 3. there was a girl in the class who was his victim. she is a student but he bullied again and again, humilihating her in front of evry body... and then he said: i do it because you are important to me.... and other rubbish. she was a victim. she always freezed - and i noticed she felt very uneasy. she admired him and never thought to react, leave the course etc. he was infallible to her. i know it because she told me. After i quit the class - she dared to quit too. (4 months later) i was happy for her. she met my husband and rushed to tell hm that she quit, so i know my quitting helped her think again. like you i realy do not feel hatred of vindictive feelings to that coach. it took me 3-4 months to get rid of him in my thoughts. now i feel free. thank you for listening. any cooments will vbe appreciated. Anat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 23, 2001 Report Share Posted May 23, 2001 I agree with Rusty; Some are good and some aren't. However, as painful as some have been in my own experience, I have been blessed to see the lessons I learned regardless. Thank goodness there have been the good one's at all the right times! Syncronicity for sure. What do they say, " When the student is ready, the teacher will come. " Sometimes I think the students teach the teachers :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 Anat-- It is difficult, isn't it, to see things as they are not just with our eyes, but also with our head and heart. All of us, even the gurus and masters among us, are filled with contradictions and unworthy impulses over which we have no real control. Lest we judge others too quickly we should take a good look at ourselves, at the many subtle and no-so-subtle ways in which we manipulate our husbands and wives and friends and business associates--sometimes consciously, most often unconsciously. Of course, it is easier to judge and blame others than to find the compassion to look from a more global (not just " politically correct " ) perspective. That is perhaps one of the reasons why all the great traditions put so much emphasis on compassion and love. With my best wishes, Dennis Lewis http://www.authentic-breathing.com , " pine " <pine@i...> wrote: > crow: > > if i may i'de like to add another thing in this subject. > I'm aftraid it's not polite to write here all the details of the story > > but here are some more sights i learned: > > 1. remember i asked the group some days ago about the gap beteween > knowing and acting? > In this case, when i attended the class for more than a year (the honey > moon paseed after 4 months) - i knew clearly in my rtional side rthat i > should leave > the place. that it's not benefiting my health. i was very much obssesed with > that > guru, thinking always how to " win " him and playing a game i am not > interested in > internally (power, ego,,,,) > still i did not act and leave our of innertia, addiction, attraction to the > charisma etc. > > the critical move (change) happened after a significant dream ( and you > always know when it is significant) . it happened on dawn and i immediately > knew what i have to do. i could not ignore the sacred dream that the Lord > sent me. i thought it would be not right to ignore such a sign from the > universe. > so i listened to it and act. > so may be the missing gap is something like a dream. > > > 2. this experience sharpened my awareness to be on guard, now whern i > attend > maritial arts groups i try to keep a good distance between me and the > teacher. i let him /her understand that i am after the contents,,,, and that > i have no interest in his personality/life and whatsoever. i became > suspicious and wary to the very beginnig signs of their intertest in me. i > try to be a background,,,, not the foreground,,, > to be gray.... not pink. > and guess what - it is fun even more,,, > > > 3. there was a girl in the class who was his victim. she is a student but he > bullied > again and again, humilihating her in front of evry body... and then he said: > i do it because you are important to me.... and other rubbish. > she was a victim. she always freezed - and i noticed she felt very uneasy. > she admired him and never thought to react, leave the course etc. he was > infallible to her. i know it because she told me. > After i quit the class - she dared to quit too. (4 months later) > i was happy for her. she met my husband and rushed to tell hm that she quit, > so i know my quitting helped her think again. > > like you i realy do not feel hatred of vindictive feelings to that coach. > it took me 3-4 months to get rid of him in my thoughts. now i feel free. > thank you for listening. any cooments will vbe appreciated. > Anat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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