Re ... Infallible Masters ...

[Guest guest]

I think it was Caroline who sent me this one, but I'm not sure! Anywho,

here is my response:

 

 

I like your thoughts on teachers, especially about listening to the lesson

rather than the teacher. I have personally found that I have had many

'unexpected' teachers who were there to give me perhaps only one lesson.

Several of my teachers have been inanimate objects, there to give me a

lesson in concentration or perseverance!!

 

There are parrallels between what you say, and my 'guru'. However, he has

never stated that he is anyone special (in fact I have heard him

emphatically deny it), or that he can do wonderful things unobtainable to

another. What he has done is pointed out what is required in order to

achieve a certain ability, and under his tutelage I have been able to reach

a point of understanding which would otherwise have taken me the rest of

this lifetime. I truly believe that. He has been able to guide me away from

making many unnecessary 'mistakes' and inaccurate 'conclusions'. At first I

found it very hard to accept what he told me. This was due to my insistance

that what I thought to be true, was true, and that this was an obvious and

immutable fact. He (with incredible patience) eventually enabled me to

discover for myself that whilst I was not entirely wrong, I was not very

'deep'. A little like learning to count to 10, and then denying that more

number could exist between 1 & 10, because decimals are not possible. Of

course, they are, and in terms of coming to terms with energy systems and

spiritual growth, it is much more difficult to learn.

 

I have had experiences with my teacher that made me feel insignificant and

useless, due to both a total lack of skill on my part, and the feeling that

I was never going to get it right. He would (although this was when it was

clear that there was a guru-student relationship between us) brutally batter

my ego at any required opportunity. This made me temporarily unhappy, but

when I acknowledged his discipline, I was able to grow stronger as a result

of it. He was well aware that I might leave him, but such a decision would

have been mine to take and not his responsibility. He doesn't do this to me

anymore. He even praises me from time to time, although flattery no longer

has any effect on me as I have finally learned to maintain a subjective

perspective. It simply happened one day when he said to me 'You know

Anne-Louise, I think I'm actually starting to see a glimmer of humility

about you. I shan't have to tease you so much any more'. There was one

occasion when he (in response to my questions) laid it on the line for me,

presenting me with a blunt and personally devasting account. He saw my face

and quietly asked me if he gone too far. I replied that he had not, and that

it is for me to absorb and determine how to deal with. The ancient texts

frequently describe the pain of 'pruning the rose', or of 'smelting the base

metal into gold by raking the slag'. It isn't the gentlest path, but it is

the shortest (temperament depending of course), and is a little like taking

the commando training course to get up the mountain rather than following

the river at a gentle pace. Both will get there, and if you consider time to

be illusory, then choose not to hurry. I have decided, most clearly and

definately, to stop wasting time and get on with it. I'm not convinced that

I am acting in the most effecient way, and making best use of the

opportunity provided, but at least I am aware of it.

 

To answer your other two questions. I have had people tell me that only

their way is the truth, but I have always ignored them. Not that everything

they said was wrong, but that for them to suggest that they have the whole

truth merely displays their ignorance. I am reflecting on whether or not you

have had this impression from me. Certainly I would never have intended to,

although there are certain instances where the facts are plain in an 'eggs

is eggs' way, and yet people still say different. In honest error maybe, but

it's still inaccurate.

 

Finally, I don't think you have a hang up about Avatars, but I do believe

that you have to be careful when making judgments about 'genuine' spiritual

teachers. There methods are often unorthodox because they just don't see the

world in the same way we do. The Zen Masters frequently beat their students

black and blue, another teacher used to live off the dead, another used to

sneak up his student and strike without warning or mercy. These methods

create aversion in the Westerner, and teachers like Jesus will always prove

to be more popular there.

 

If you want to make progress, the only way is to do it yourself. With

sincerity and grace you will eventually achieve the transformation,

ironically from that which you are NOT, into that which you ARE. A teacher

(we are told) is essential, but I disagree with this. If devotion is your

preference, then whatever you consider to be divine is the teacher. If

mental control is your preference then Introspection (followed by the

divine) is the teacher. A teacher can provide a more effective route, but If

a teacher does not manifest the divine, he is no teacher. That is my

experience.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

I have met and been exposed to many kinds of teachers in my life; some have

been pleasant, some unpleasant; some have been wise, some have been foolish;

some have been quiet, some loquacious; some were reticent of their gifts,

while others were outright bragadocious. I think that in the long run I

have learned something from all of them, and hope to always remain open to

teachers that come into my life. However, as a person I am not a follower,

and I am not prone to worshipping my teachers. As my guides told me once in

a journey, you listen to the lesson, not the teacher. If you are listening

to the teacher you are missing the lesson.

 

I think that ideally, a teacher should be a guide, not a leader.

 

 

 

A big bell goes off in my head when I hear someone describe some

wonderful person who is " all that and a bag of chips " , able to leap tall

buildings in a single bound, balance a pile of books on their head and heal

the masses while feeding the hungry and initiating world peace. My question

is, that if a person is truly gifted in this way, why they tell others they

are stifling their gifts and make it look like a real favour that they are

condescending to teach, heal, whatever (which is an insult to the giver of

the gifts). I don't mind the idea of a person being an avatar... but I

don't think an avatar would brag about it. Maybe that is my hang up. What

do you think?

 

I am also suspicious of anyone who will tell people that they can do

something that other people are not necessarily able to do. That is just

openly fallacious. If they can do it, someone else probably has, several

times before breakfast. Even Jesus said that his disciples were capable of

performing the same, and even greater miracles, than he did. Throwing chi

and spiritual intimidation are not good examples of miracles, either. They

are good examples of how a person can manipulate energy. It doesn't take a

very advanced or 'positive' person to do that.

 

I don't think that mixing ego power with teaching is such a good mix, unless

the teacher is interested in a following of passive and adoring sheep who

are happy to be limited and stay in awe of the teacher. The bookshelves are

lined with the tales of such students who woke up from the bedazzlement and

walked away from those situations, often being harassed, ostracised or

cursed for it. Yes, it is good to have some level of respect, and even

obedience in some cases, for a teacher to be effective... but the student

must always have room to question and grow away from the teacher; that is

natural, and should be the goal of the teacher, to encourage growth and

independent thought in the student.

 

There is an old saying that a boy finally grows up when he can knock his old

man down. Seeing that figuratively, I view that as organic... that we are

meant to develop and exceed the potential of our 'parents', not simply to

model them or defer to them.

 

That said, I am wondering if you may have had an experience with a

teacher/master/healer/whatever who was very charismatic and demanded a lot

from you 'for your own good' while doing very little that was productive for

your personal growth or thinking processes. Have you had an experience

with a teacher that confused you and made you feel negative about yourself?

Have you listened to someone tell you that they had the only truth?

 

What did you learn from that experience?

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I've snipped your post, which was very thoughtful, but a little

long to leave trailing :-)

 

On another list where I discuss aspects of shamanism, we have had

an encounter recently with a person who was basically there to

agitate the group... and although a lot of feathers were ruffled

and cackling heard, we eventually came to the conclusion that we

were better off for having the fox visit the henhouse, so to

speak. It made us stronger in our community and helped us to

individually clarify our thoughts and paths better.

 

In indiginious society, these people may be called tricksters,

like Coyote or Raven, or heyoka, or contraries. Often their

lesson is how not to behave, or they do shocking things that put

us forcibly into the moment, distracting us from our

distractions. In some Southwest tribes, these sacred clowns

figure prominently in ritual, by keeping the people in the

present mindset and reminding them where they are. For someone

who does not understand that way, it can be seen as vulgar,

humiliating or meaningless behavior.

 

But the clown is a very specific figure, trained in his art, and

he belongs to a special order that does nothing but that. It is

holy work. Outside of the work, outside of the reference, the

behavior *would* be socially unacceptable and unpleasant.

 

And so we have to decide, for ourselves, how we learn best, and

what kind of teacher would facilitate that in the most

appropriate way. For a restless person, zazen meditation and

spartan surroundings may be useful for discipline, but it may

also be past uncomfortable to dissonant as a lifestyle. On the

other hand, a shy and introspective person may not respond well

to the often raucous and ego driven politics of a pagan coven.

 

I have yet to really understand what anyone means when they

describe someone as a genuine teacher... as opposed to...? I

think some teachers are better than others, but I can't really

judge someone as not being a genuine teacher ;-) And the truth

is, that if a person is spiritually aware, they can generally

overlook the judgements of others as irrelevant, since they are

not living in their egos in a pronounced way.

 

We all manifest the divine, every day, in different ways. Perhaps

we are all simple fragments of a giant mirror, shattered in the

Big Bang... maybe we are all here to reflect divinity to each

other, until we can find a way to put the great mirror back

together again. If that is so, then we are all genuine spiritual

teachers, whether we know it or not.

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

Anne-Louise Lasley wrote:

>

> I do believe

> that you have to be careful when making judgments about

> 'genuine' spiritual

> teachers. There methods are often unorthodox because they just

> don't see the

> world in the same way we do. The Zen Masters frequently beat

> their students

> black and blue, another teacher used to live off the dead,

> another used to

> sneak up his student and strike without warning or mercy. These

> methods

> create aversion in the Westerner, and teachers like Jesus will

> always prove

> to be more popular there.

> . A teacher can provide a more effective

> route, but If

> a teacher does not manifest the divine, he is no teacher. That

> is my

> experience.

>

>

--

---

Blessings,

Crow

" Look for Rainbows in the Darkness "

---

Caroline " Crow " Abreu

 

AIM: CaroCrow

Messenger: NRGbalance

URL: http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance

 

Personal and Medical Intuitive Readings:

http://www.geocities.com/nrgbalance/readings.html

 

" We see things not as they are but as we are. " The Talmud

[Guest guest]

I'm enjoying these discussions on what makes someone a teacher... I believe

that anyone at anytime can be a

teacher to us. I can't see the necessity for defining someone as a guru or

master, actually. A person might be a

guru to one person yet another person might think this same person is a total

flake. I don't think there are any

absolutes in this. The one thing that I think in general we lack in this

society is that we don't look at the

life of the person we've chosen to teach us something. Or we look and explain

it away. I doubt there are many

people who can be a teacher in all respects - we each have special talents.

Personally, if I wanted to learn

something I would look for someone who is successful *in that way* and learn

from them. They probably have other

areas of their lives that are a mess, but if they are successful in the thing I

want to learn, they are who I'd go

to. I wouldn't learn to stop smoking from an active smoker. But a person who

had stopped smoking and has

relationship troubles would still be useful to me in the smoking cessation.

People want to believe that some gurus and masters are completely enlightened

and can teach them all things.

There probably are some people out there like that, but I've never heard of one.

What I've heard is that it was

the student's expectation and then the disillusionment sets in. There are

supposed beings who are above

everything earthly and came back here solely to teach us, and when they start

having their own physical problems

or other problems, the students are told that the master is taking on the pains

of the people they are teaching.

They are told that now that the master has develped cancer, it means they

themselves won't get it. So their

devotion (and denial) grows.

These are just all my personal opinions, I'm sure they don't resonate with

everyone here.

 

Linda

http://www.DrNature.net

[Guest guest]

Linda:

 

Doesn't this always happen in the process of infatuation? We 'set

ourselves up for failure' with such a strong desire for

perfection, either in ourselves or others, that there is no way

for that desire to be adequately satisfied... and as the rose

colored glasses come off, and reality sets in, resentment rises

(ouch!) ;-(

 

Expectation is the enemy of peace and satisfaction ;-) The more

we demand that something or someone conform to our idea or ideal,

the less likely it is to happen, for a lot of reasons... free

choice and the laws of manifestation among them. Wanting

something one way is all right, as long as the emphasis is not on

changing others to fit our mold but rather to altering

situations, environments and dance partners for relationships.

 

Sometimes people do change, but I've hardly ever noticed it

happening because somebody else wanted them to... at least on a

heart level. Behavior will alter, but real change only comes from

within, from personal desire, not external pressure.

 

One of the first things I ask a person who wants to quit smoking

is, " Why? " The folks that are most successful at becoming

non-smokers don't do it because someone nagged them (like a

partner, child or mate) but because they wanted to improve

themselves, feel better, etc. Behavior modification can adjust

behavior, but it generally doesn't affect the reason for the

behavior. Sometimes a new and even uglier behavior will emerge

when the first one is removed.

 

I think that is one of the reasons there can be strife and

rancour in a relationship as reality sets in... one or the other

begins to list a litany of things they have done to please the

other, how they have altered their behavior to satisfy the other.

If they were not doing it because they wanted to and/or they

expected something in return that they don't feel was delivered,

their actions were coming from a place of fantasy or manipulation

rather than love.

 

And of course, if we've been raised to believe that 'for every

action there is an equal and opposite reaction' means that every

emotion we have will be validated, every action we make will be

appreciated, if we are nice to people they will be nice to us and

every time we love someone they will love us back... well, then,

we have been set up for a great deal of disappointment. What we

do must be its own reward in order for us to be happy; we can't

rely on others to complete us or satisfy us... our parents, our

mates, our children, our friends or our teachers.

 

Blessings,

Crow

 

 

 

" Dr.Nature " wrote:

>

>

> People want to believe that some gurus and masters are

> completely enlightened and can teach them all things.

> There probably are some people out there like that, but I've

> never heard of one. What I've heard is that it was

> the student's expectation and then the disillusionment sets

> in. There are supposed beings who are above

> everything earthly and came back here solely to teach us, and

> when they start having their own physical problems

> or other problems, the students are told that the master is

> taking on the pains of the people they are teaching.

> They are told that now that the master has develped cancer, it

> means they themselves won't get it. So their

> devotion (and denial) grows.