Guest guest Posted June 28, 2001 Report Share Posted June 28, 2001 Dear Crow, I really got to the point, with my dad, that I didn't need him to be anybody other than he was. Some changes might have been nice, but I loved him and could even enjoy being with him as he was. I see now why I can't figure out how to set these same boundaries with my sister - I want her to change. That won't work. How do I give this up? Audrey , Caroline Abreu <crow@c...> wrote: > Audrey: > > That seems to be the key, gentle and firm negotiation. First you > compliment or give a positive message, then you place a boundary > marker. Then you repeat that step, over and over. When the person > approaches or tries to go past the boundary marker, you remind > them that it is there. If they still don't respect it, you have > to make the choice whether you want to stay and defend your > boundary or leave until the person can learn to respect it. It > depends on the boundary which is more appropriate. > > Unfortunately, since we all have free will, setting boundaries is > a mixed bag as far as success goes. The most important part is > that once you have set a thoughtful boundary and made it clear > that it is there, you can't allow the other person to manipulate > you into altering or removing it. Children are just as crafty as > adults as far as manipulating others' boundaries or playing off > them. > > I also feel that as parents we have to extend our boundaries to > include what we will accept in our children's space until they > are old enough to decide that for themselves. Teaching boundaries > early is something many of us missed out on and that we should > gift our children with. Semipermeable, strong enough to defend > them from harm, but open enough to let love and joy in. > > I'm glad to hear that not only were you successful in asserting > your boundaries, but that your father was able to accept that. > Having boundaries is not about changing other people, it's about > what we will and won't accept in our personal space, our " realm " . > There is no reason to put up with people messing around with our > boundaries, but we have to decide what they are and communicate > them clearly, no matter who likes it or doesn't. > > I see people getting angry all the time because boundaries that > they have not defined have been invaded... and I'll tell you the > truth, I don't feel sorry for them. Either they want to be angry, > or they are lazy, because you have to let other people know your > limits before they can respond appropriately to them. > > Blessings, > Crow Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Dear Audrey and Crow: What great inspiration both these posts are. I was never so good at setting boundaries. I'm learning late in life. Once I do, I always feel regret and fear. This is what I'm trying to work on. What is it about saying " no " that so bothers me. I get the setting limits with kids, but with peers, I always get sloppy emotionally. I end up giving it scads more energy than I would have if I just let people push past my compfort zone. I'm so used to that, the feelings, while annoying, are familiar. Perhaps its just the newness of the experience that I find discompforting. any thoughts? love connie > Dear Crow, > I really got to the point, with my dad, that I didn't need him to be > anybody other than he was. Some changes might have been nice, but I > loved him and could even enjoy being with him as he was. I see now > why I can't figure out how to set these same boundaries with my > sister - I want her to change. That won't work. How do I give this up? > Audrey > > , Caroline Abreu <crow@c...> wrote: >> Audrey: >> >> That seems to be the key, gentle and firm negotiation. First you >> compliment or give a positive message, then you place a boundary >> marker. Then you repeat that step, over and over. When the person >> approaches or tries to go past the boundary marker, you remind >> them that it is there. If they still don't respect it, you have >> to make the choice whether you want to stay and defend your >> boundary or leave until the person can learn to respect it. It >> depends on the boundary which is more appropriate. >> >> Unfortunately, since we all have free will, setting boundaries is >> a mixed bag as far as success goes. The most important part is >> that once you have set a thoughtful boundary and made it clear >> that it is there, you can't allow the other person to manipulate >> you into altering or removing it. Children are just as crafty as >> adults as far as manipulating others' boundaries or playing off >> them. >> >> I also feel that as parents we have to extend our boundaries to >> include what we will accept in our children's space until they >> are old enough to decide that for themselves. Teaching boundaries >> early is something many of us missed out on and that we should >> gift our children with. Semipermeable, strong enough to defend >> them from harm, but open enough to let love and joy in. >> >> I'm glad to hear that not only were you successful in asserting >> your boundaries, but that your father was able to accept that. >> Having boundaries is not about changing other people, it's about >> what we will and won't accept in our personal space, our " realm " . >> There is no reason to put up with people messing around with our >> boundaries, but we have to decide what they are and communicate >> them clearly, no matter who likes it or doesn't. >> >> I see people getting angry all the time because boundaries that >> they have not defined have been invaded... and I'll tell you the >> truth, I don't feel sorry for them. Either they want to be angry, >> or they are lazy, because you have to let other people know your >> limits before they can respond appropriately to them. >> >> Blessings, >> Crow > > > > **************************************** > Visit the community page: > For administrative problems -owner > To , - > > All messages, files and archives of this forum are copyright of the > group and the individual authors. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Hi connie what you described suits my behavior as well. i also have a tremendous difficulty to say " no " it drains a lot of energy because energies are leaking with no firm boundries. i think boundries are something very central for any success. boundries make sure you'll be more centered and focused, Animals who are lonely hunters like tigers are always using boundries - to tell their peers: " this is my teritory " . Anat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Dear Anat: I like what you said here about the tiger as a lonely hunter, he's the one who needs the boundary most. What of the animal who hunts in groups, who shares with the group, who rests with the group? Consider the swans who mate for life, do they need less boundaries because the watch each others back? If so, perhaps that is another alternative. To align with others who by sheer numbers, intimidate those who would abuse. Perhaps I'm just rationalizing a weakness. love connie > Hi connie > what you described suits my behavior as well. > i also have a tremendous difficulty to say " no " > it drains a lot of energy because energies are leaking with no firm > boundries. > i think boundries are something very central for any success. > boundries make sure you'll be more centered and focused, > Animals who are lonely hunters like tigers are always using boundries - to > tell their peers: " this is my teritory " . > Anat > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Whew! That's a tall order, Audrey <LOL> There are people who work their whole lives to rid themselves of attachments... attachments to control, mostly. Perhaps it would help if you stopped thinking of her as your sister and just as another person, maybe a stranger. Would you be nearly as likely to " meddle " and " fix " if she was not your sibling, but a coworker or someone you knew from church, the checker at the grocery or your doctor's receptionist? We have an assumption, that because we are intimately involved with other people, that we can be enmeshed in their personal choices and trample on their boundaries. Find out what your sister's boundaries are and respect them... you're probably stomping on her roses, and even if you think they are ugly stinkblossoms, they're hers, not yours ;-) Love her and let her go. Be present for her if she requests support or guidance, but don't impose either on her. I'm sure at this point she knows your opinions; just make sure she understands you are not standing in judgement of her. Blessings, Crow audreylee wrote: > > Dear Crow, > I really got to the point, with my dad, that I didn't need him > to be > anybody other than he was. Some changes might have been nice, > but I > loved him and could even enjoy being with him as he was. I see > now > why I can't figure out how to set these same boundaries with my > > sister - I want her to change. That won't work. How do I give > this up? > Audrey > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Connie: I don't agree that learning to affiliate for activism is a weakness. As a matter of fact, it is the most effective way of getting anything accomplished. " Hunting alone " , while it might satisfy personal urges and needs, is rather wasteful in comparison to " Cooperative hunting " where everyone shares in the work and the bounty afterwards. Have you ever participated in a community garden? I see them in the city, and I think the process is beautiful. Cooperative effort spent towards mutual benefit. Not only are there many hands to pull weeds, water and hoe, there are plenty of folks to take away the truckloads of zucchini! We are also much more likely to be ignored as aberrations if we take on the weight of a cause alone. It's not impossible, and it usually takes one strong individual to motivate and organize others, then to lead them, but even the most delusional revolutionary knows he needs help to get things done ;-) On a personal level, we also have to remember that " no man is an island " , that part of our nature is the desire and need to give and receive love, and I believe some of the highest tasks we are here for are learning right action and compassion. These situations are the little bumps in the path, the homilies we learn from. We can't really grow if we are giving away all of our spiritual nourishment to others. We have to let the sunshine in sometimes. Blessings, Crow Blessings, Crow CL wrote: > > Dear Anat: > I like what you said here about the tiger as a lonely hunter, > he's the one > who needs the boundary most. What of the animal who hunts in > groups, who > shares with the group, who rests with the group? Consider the > swans who > mate for life, do they need less boundaries because the watch > each others > back? If so, perhaps that is another alternative. To align > with others who > by sheer numbers, intimidate those who would abuse. > Perhaps I'm just rationalizing a weakness. > love > connie > > Hi connie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Dear Connie, Definitely, with me, the newness of trying to stand up for myself and sticking with that... it's incredibly tough for me. I know, for me, that it has to do with how much I respect me. Audrey , CL <tink-im@c...> wrote: > > Dear Audrey and Crow: > What great inspiration both these posts are. I was never so good at > setting boundaries. I'm learning late in life. Once I do, I always feel > regret and fear. This is what I'm trying to work on. What is it about > saying " no " that so bothers me. I get the setting limits with kids, but > with peers, I always get sloppy emotionally. I end up giving it scads more > energy than I would have if I just let people push past my compfort zone. > I'm so used to that, the feelings, while annoying, are familiar. Perhaps > its just the newness of the experience that I find discompforting. > any thoughts? > love > connie > > Dear Crow, > > I really got to the point, with my dad, that I didn't need him to be > > anybody other than he was. Some changes might have been nice, but I > > loved him and could even enjoy being with him as he was. I see now > > why I can't figure out how to set these same boundaries with my > > sister - I want her to change. That won't work. How do I give this up? > > Audrey > > > > , Caroline Abreu <crow@c...> wrote: > >> Audrey: > >> > >> That seems to be the key, gentle and firm negotiation. First you > >> compliment or give a positive message, then you place a boundary > >> marker. Then you repeat that step, over and over. When the person > >> approaches or tries to go past the boundary marker, you remind > >> them that it is there. If they still don't respect it, you have > >> to make the choice whether you want to stay and defend your > >> boundary or leave until the person can learn to respect it. It > >> depends on the boundary which is more appropriate. > >> > >> Unfortunately, since we all have free will, setting boundaries is > >> a mixed bag as far as success goes. The most important part is > >> that once you have set a thoughtful boundary and made it clear > >> that it is there, you can't allow the other person to manipulate > >> you into altering or removing it. Children are just as crafty as > >> adults as far as manipulating others' boundaries or playing off > >> them. > >> > >> I also feel that as parents we have to extend our boundaries to > >> include what we will accept in our children's space until they > >> are old enough to decide that for themselves. Teaching boundaries > >> early is something many of us missed out on and that we should > >> gift our children with. Semipermeable, strong enough to defend > >> them from harm, but open enough to let love and joy in. > >> > >> I'm glad to hear that not only were you successful in asserting > >> your boundaries, but that your father was able to accept that. > >> Having boundaries is not about changing other people, it's about > >> what we will and won't accept in our personal space, our " realm " . > >> There is no reason to put up with people messing around with our > >> boundaries, but we have to decide what they are and communicate > >> them clearly, no matter who likes it or doesn't. > >> > >> I see people getting angry all the time because boundaries that > >> they have not defined have been invaded... and I'll tell you the > >> truth, I don't feel sorry for them. Either they want to be angry, > >> or they are lazy, because you have to let other people know your > >> limits before they can respond appropriately to them. > >> > >> Blessings, > >> Crow > > > > > > > > **************************************** > > Visit the community page: > > For administrative problems -owner > > To , - > > > > All messages, files and archives of this forum are copyright of the > > group and the individual authors. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Dear Connie, for me, it would be so much easier to live that solitary life. The boundaries would be SO CLEAR. The hard part (for me) comes when I am involved with others, spouse, friends, siblings, co-workers, etc. I know I also have trouble surrounding with only healthy-for-me, supportive people but there are still issues with them (do I want to do this or just go with what they are wanting type issues) and, again, it comes back to respecting myself and beliveing that I Matter. What I want, think, feel, belive, is valid. Audrey , CL <tink-im@c...> wrote: > > Dear Anat: > I like what you said here about the tiger as a lonely hunter, he's the one > who needs the boundary most. What of the animal who hunts in groups, who > shares with the group, who rests with the group? Consider the swans who > mate for life, do they need less boundaries because the watch each others > back? If so, perhaps that is another alternative. To align with others who > by sheer numbers, intimidate those who would abuse. > Perhaps I'm just rationalizing a weakness. > love > connie > > Hi connie > > what you described suits my behavior as well. > > i also have a tremendous difficulty to say " no " > > it drains a lot of energy because energies are leaking with no firm > > boundries. > > i think boundries are something very central for any success. > > boundries make sure you'll be more centered and focused, > > Animals who are lonely hunters like tigers are always using boundries - to > > tell their peers: " this is my teritory " . > > Anat > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Thanks Crow. 'Don't stomp on her roses.' I really want to like her better and think that I can't if she is who she is. -That's pretty circular! Really, there's only a few things about her I'd like her to change just for me! <mirthless laughter> Audrey , Caroline Abreu <crow@c...> wrote: > Whew! That's a tall order, Audrey <LOL> > > There are people who work their whole lives to rid themselves of > attachments... attachments to control, mostly. Perhaps it would > help if you stopped thinking of her as your sister and just as > another person, maybe a stranger. Would you be nearly as likely > to " meddle " and " fix " if she was not your sibling, but a coworker > or someone you knew from church, the checker at the grocery or > your doctor's receptionist? > > We have an assumption, that because we are intimately involved > with other people, that we can be enmeshed in their personal > choices and trample on their boundaries. Find out what your > sister's boundaries are and respect them... you're probably > stomping on her roses, and even if you think they are ugly > stinkblossoms, they're hers, not yours ;-) > > Love her and let her go. Be present for her if she requests > support or guidance, but don't impose either on her. I'm sure at > this point she knows your opinions; just make sure she > understands you are not standing in judgement of her. > > Blessings, > Crow > > audreylee@n... wrote: > > > > Dear Crow, > > I really got to the point, with my dad, that I didn't need him > > to be > > anybody other than he was. Some changes might have been nice, > > but I > > loved him and could even enjoy being with him as he was. I see > > now > > why I can't figure out how to set these same boundaries with my > > > > sister - I want her to change. That won't work. How do I give > > this up? > > Audrey > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Hmm, Audrey. You know, it may sound like " love the sinner, hate the sin " but you don't have to like somebody to love them. You don't have to agree with them, or even want to be around them to love them. I know exactly what you mean, though, since if you 'liked' her better you might feel your relationship would improve in quality and maybe be more like what you fantasize your sisterly relationship should be. Oh, I've been there. But I still encourage you to find a place in yourself that just looks at her as you would anyone else, rather than looking at her as your sister. I think that will help you clarify your mutual boundaries and make your relationship more respectful, even if it is never particularly affectionate or cozy. Blessings, Crow audreylee wrote: > > Thanks Crow. 'Don't stomp on her roses.' > I really want to like her better and think that I can't if she > is > who she is. -That's pretty circular! > Really, there's only a few things about her I'd like her to > change > just for me! <mirthless laughter> > Audrey > > , Caroline Abreu <crow@c...> wrote: > > Whew! That's a tall order, Audrey <LOL> > > > > There are people who work their whole lives to rid themselves > of > > attachments... attachments to control, mostly. Perhaps it > would > > help if you stopped thinking of her as your sister and just > as > > another person, maybe a stranger. Would you be nearly as > likely > > to " meddle " and " fix " if she was not your sibling, but a > coworker > > or someone you knew from church, the checker at the grocery > or > > your doctor's receptionist? > > > > We have an assumption, that because we are intimately > involved > > with other people, that we can be enmeshed in their personal > > choices and trample on their boundaries. Find out what your > > sister's boundaries are and respect them... you're probably > > stomping on her roses, and even if you think they are ugly > > stinkblossoms, they're hers, not yours ;-) > > > > Love her and let her go. Be present for her if she requests > > support or guidance, but don't impose either on her. I'm sure > at > > this point she knows your opinions; just make sure she > > understands you are not standing in judgement of her. > > > > Blessings, > > Crow > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2001 Report Share Posted June 29, 2001 Connie: Well, what's nice about being self aware is, that eventually you learn that since life itself is a terminal condition, none of this is really serious. Rather than judging yourself for the times you didn't say No, didn't communicate a boundary or caved to manipulation, let that be what it is and start praising yourself for your little victories instead. In life, we have far more victories than failures, but we like to magnify those failures until they overshadow the successes we've had. And every time we do that, we weaken our boundaries. Well, after all, we're failures, so we deserve to be taken advantage of, eh? :-( Think about somebody you know who is strong, capable and has good healthy boundaries. Think about how they behave, and how people respond to them. See how they are when they are being friendly and generous, and when they are being firm. I know you must know someone like that, even if they are a movie star or a memory. Borrow some of their " clothes " until you can make some of your own. You are a talented and intelligent person, and you don't need to pander to people for them to like you. People like you for who you are, and you can appreciate that more every day if you pay attention. People will respect you more if you clearly define who you are in a pleasant and confident way. Blessings, Crow CL wrote: > > Dear Audrey and Crow: > What great inspiration both these posts are. I was never so > good at > setting boundaries. I'm learning late in life. Once I do, I > always feel > regret and fear. This is what I'm trying to work on. What is > it about > saying " no " that so bothers me. I get the setting limits with > kids, but > with peers, I always get sloppy emotionally. I end up giving > it scads more > energy than I would have if I just let people push past my > compfort zone. > I'm so used to that, the feelings, while annoying, are > familiar. Perhaps > its just the newness of the experience that I find > discompforting. > any thoughts? > love > connie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 Dear Crow: > > I don't agree that learning to affiliate for activism is a > weakness. As a matter of fact, it is the most effective way of > getting anything accomplished. " Hunting alone " , while it might > satisfy personal urges and needs, is rather wasteful in > comparison to " Cooperative hunting " where everyone shares in the > work and the bounty afterwards. Yes, along time ago I read a book called " Agartha " , in it her guide Mentor talked extensively about the power of the group. He said, something to the effect that, one person who sends out a single thought can put X amount of energy behind it for manifestation. But if a group of people send out the same thought with the power behind it is the number in the group squared. So he was extrapolating on how many people it would take to change the world. By taking the square root of the world population, that number can change it by simply having one thought at the same time. I forget the number, but it's not very many really, considering mass communication now adays. Certainly, When princess Dianna died, we had more than enough people with a single thought and feeling who were watching. As a result any time there is a world " meeting called " , I always want to be involved. That includes, the olympics, earthday, any major world crises, weather oddities that gets everyone's attention. Unfortunatly there isn't often a unified thought, but sometimes there is. During the 60's a group of kids had one unified thought, to end the war in viet nam, they didn't petition, or build a monument or have a better answer or put money behind it or orginize. They just spread the rumor of " peace in viet nam " . Protested a bit, raged a bit, grew in numbers, and eventually ended the war. That same group, the Baby Boomers/hippies havn't had another unified thought or the world would be a far different place now. I'm not speaking to tribal energy, where one gives over power and control to an extended family. This is more like corporate energy, where we all have the same mission statement and we're all equal stack holders. It works very well on a lesser level as well. If you want to grow a garden as you suggested. It's a ton of work for 10 single people to grow 10 different gardens. But if ten people come together, work as a team for the same goal, and grow a garden 10 times larger, the power of the group to accomplish this is squared. ie 100 units of energy and efficiency to get the job done. By myself I cannot plant an acre. But with 10 people I know with all our ideas, contacts, joined resources, etc, we can easily plant a hundred acres. In this group, how many members are there? What is that number squared? What one thing can everyone agree on as a passionate thought that they'd like to accomplish? With the internet, some very amazing things can be accomplished, hence the big jump in internet stock awhile ago. Wow, I went on a tangent here, sorry. Just agreeing on the power of the group. love connie > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 30, 2001 Report Share Posted June 30, 2001 Dear Audrey: Yes, personal respect is very key in all this. love connie > > Dear Connie, > Definitely, with me, the newness of trying to stand up for myself and > sticking with that... it's incredibly tough for me. I know, for me, > that it has to do with how much I respect me. > Audrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2001 Report Share Posted July 2, 2001 Thank you Crow. I didn't always like my dad but I did always love him. I really appreciate your wisdom, and your willingness (eagerness?) to share it. I know your physical age does not relect this but I believe your actions reflect your status of: Elder. Audrey , Caroline Abreu <crow@c...> wrote: > Hmm, Audrey. > > You know, it may sound like " love the sinner, hate the sin " but > you don't have to like somebody to love them. You don't have to > agree with them, or even want to be around them to love them. > > I know exactly what you mean, though, since if you 'liked' her > better you might feel your relationship would improve in quality > and maybe be more like what you fantasize your sisterly > relationship should be. > > Oh, I've been there. But I still encourage you to find a place in > yourself that just looks at her as you would anyone else, rather > than looking at her as your sister. I think that will help you > clarify your mutual boundaries and make your relationship more > respectful, even if it is never particularly affectionate or > cozy. > > Blessings, > Crow > > audreylee@n... wrote: > > > > Thanks Crow. 'Don't stomp on her roses.' > > I really want to like her better and think that I can't if she > > is > > who she is. -That's pretty circular! > > Really, there's only a few things about her I'd like her to > > change > > just for me! <mirthless laughter> > > Audrey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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