Guest guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 Jim, All, > You bring up a wonderful and interesting point that I have tried to > include in past posts. For me, Birch's essay was the most > interesting part of the book. I always try to mention it when I > teach. In my opinion, the energetic model is showing the anomalies that will shift us toward information theory as the primary way of thinking about and researching traditional ideas like the channel system, phase relationships, and the interaction of individuals with their environment as codified in concepts such as qi. The Friedman-Birch paper is something of a landmark because it points to the problems of the energetic model in a logically compelling way, giving additional weight to the linguistic and philological evidence. > Has there been any further development of thinking along this line? William Tiller has a book coming dealing with the issues of measurements of the channel system. When he publishes this research, it promises to point toward new ways of measuring channel system events and properties. I do not know where the work stands at this time. I'll inquire. Mark and Steve's idea is to link these measures to the input points of the equasions and see if the measured outcomes are predicted reliably. If this were to prove-out, it would have a very significant effect on how we think about many Chinese concepts because the older energetic model would not just be more highly suspect than it already is but logically excluded in a specific and non-trivial case. Bob bob Paradigm Publications www.paradigm-pubs.com 44 Linden Street Robert L. Felt Brookline MA 02445 617-738-4664 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 Bob Felt wrote: In my opinion, the energetic model is showing the anomalies that will shift us toward information theory as the primary way of thinking about and researching traditional ideas like the channel system, phase relationships, and the interaction of individuals with their environment as codified in concepts such as qi. The Friedman- Birch paper is something of a landmark because it points to the problems of the energetic model in a logically compelling way, giving additional weight to the linguistic and philological evidence. [James Ramholz] Perhaps that time is already upon us. When we look at more sophisticated pulse diagnosis models (other than the rudimentary Li Shi-zhen qualities applied to each jiao as a whole), for example, when using Nan Jing 3-depths and 5-depths, or Dong Han 27-sectors per jiao, we are primarily examining information about the interactions of 5-Phases. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 Dear Jim Ramolz, Could you please post the details of the Friedman-Birch paper on this group so i can access it. Thank you, Frederick Court --- James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > Bob Felt wrote: > In my opinion, the energetic model is showing the > anomalies that > will shift us toward information theory as the > primary way of > thinking about and researching traditional ideas > like the channel > system, phase relationships, and the interaction of > individuals with > their environment as codified in concepts such as > qi. The Friedman- > Birch paper is something of a landmark because it > points to the > problems of the energetic model in a logically > compelling way, > giving additional weight to the linguistic and > philological > evidence. > > > [James Ramholz] > Perhaps that time is already upon us. When we look > at more > sophisticated pulse diagnosis models (other than the > rudimentary Li > Shi-zhen qualities applied to each jiao as a whole), > for example, > when using Nan Jing 3-depths and 5-depths, or Dong > Han 27-sectors > per jiao, we are primarily examining information > about the > interactions of 5-Phases. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Shopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 30, 2001 Report Share Posted November 30, 2001 The Birch essay is appendix 5 in the Yoshio Manaka book, Chasing the Dragon's Tail (Paradigm, 1995). In it, Birch says that " Schools adhering to the descriptions of organ theory (zang-fu theory) as the sole basis of acupuncture have always found that the five-phase parameters (a,b,c,and e) are unable to describe the physiological functions and interactions of the zang- fu. However, when we take the view that these parameters are concerned solely with the interactive regulation of the zang-fu, the channels, and the related phase-sets, and are not the physiologic interactions themselves, then the conflict is resolved. " [p.395] While this statement is true of the general population of practitioners, the inability " to describe physiological functions and interactions of the zang-fu " is a limitation of the person applying the theory, and not of 5-Phases Theory itself. Physiological functions are easily described in both CM terms and Western medical terms using 5-Phases. Jim Ramholz , Frederick Court <fwrcourt> wrote: > Dear Jim Ramholz, > Could you please post the details of the > Friedman-Birch paper on this group so i can access it. > > Thank you, > Frederick Court > --- James Ramholz <jramholz> wrote: > > Bob Felt wrote: > > In my opinion, the energetic model is showing the > > anomalies that > > will shift us toward information theory as the > > primary way of > > thinking about and researching traditional ideas > > like the channel > > system, phase relationships, and the interaction of > > individuals with > > their environment as codified in concepts such as > > qi. The Friedman- > > Birch paper is something of a landmark because it > > points to the > > problems of the energetic model in a logically > > compelling way, > > giving additional weight to the linguistic and > > philological > > evidence. > > > > > > [James Ramholz] > > Perhaps that time is already upon us. When we look > > at more > > sophisticated pulse diagnosis models (other than the > > rudimentary Li > > Shi-zhen qualities applied to each jiao as a whole), > > for example, > > when using Nan Jing 3-depths and 5-depths, or Dong > > Han 27-sectors > > per jiao, we are primarily examining information > > about the > > interactions of 5-Phases. > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Shopping. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2001 Report Share Posted December 1, 2001 Thank you for this information. Frederick Court --- James Ramholz <jramholz wrote: > The Birch essay is appendix 5 in the Yoshio Manaka > book, Chasing the > Dragon's Tail (Paradigm, 1995). > > In it, Birch says that " Schools adhering to the > descriptions of > organ theory (zang-fu theory) as the sole basis of > acupuncture have > always found that the five-phase parameters > (a,b,c,and e) are unable > to describe the physiological functions and > interactions of the zang- > fu. However, when we take the view that these > parameters are > concerned solely with the interactive regulation of > the zang-fu, the > channels, and the related phase-sets, and are not > the physiologic > interactions themselves, then the conflict is > resolved. " [p.395] > > While this statement is true of the general > population of > practitioners, the inability " to describe > physiological functions > and interactions of the zang-fu " is a limitation of > the person > applying the theory, and not of 5-Phases Theory > itself. > Physiological functions are easily described in both > CM terms and > Western medical terms using 5-Phases. > > > Jim Ramholz > > , Frederick Court > <fwrcourt> > wrote: > > Dear Jim Ramholz, > > Could you please post the details of the > > Friedman-Birch paper on this group so i can access > it. > > > > Thank you, > > Frederick Court > > --- James Ramholz <jramholz> wrote: > > > Bob Felt wrote: > > > In my opinion, the energetic model is showing > the > > > anomalies that > > > will shift us toward information theory as the > > > primary way of > > > thinking about and researching traditional ideas > > > like the channel > > > system, phase relationships, and the interaction > of > > > individuals with > > > their environment as codified in concepts such > as > > > qi. The Friedman- > > > Birch paper is something of a landmark because > it > > > points to the > > > problems of the energetic model in a logically > > > compelling way, > > > giving additional weight to the linguistic and > > > philological > > > evidence. > > > > > > > > > [James Ramholz] > > > Perhaps that time is already upon us. When we > look > > > at more > > > sophisticated pulse diagnosis models (other than > the > > > rudimentary Li > > > Shi-zhen qualities applied to each jiao as a > whole), > > > for example, > > > when using Nan Jing 3-depths and 5-depths, or > Dong > > > Han 27-sectors > > > per jiao, we are primarily examining information > > > about the > > > interactions of 5-Phases. > > > > > > > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Shopping. > > > > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Shopping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2001 Report Share Posted December 1, 2001 , " Robert L. Felt " <bob@p...> wrote: If this were to prove-out, it > would have a very significant effect on how we think about many Chinese > concepts because the older energetic model would not just be more highly > suspect than it already is but logically excluded in a specific and non-trivial > case. When our profession finally accepts that the long overdue rejection of the energy model of qi is proven mathematically, that will be the beginning of a sea change. This energy model is not only philologically wrong, but its prominence in our field has been a major stumbling block to mainstream scientific acceptance. The energy model of qi has always been ludicrous and every bonafide physicist who has investigated the matter has found the idea laughable. Yet the old guard in our field is still teaching students about energy and " explaining " the effects of CM with simplistic references to quantum physics. Complexity science is much harder to grasp and this may explain why it has not been embraced yet in the acupuncture field. This will also hopefully finally sound the death knell of those practices of so-called energetic medicine that have justified their credibility by piggybacking on the venerability of acupuncture, upon which their practices are supposedly based. Of greater interest to me is the issue of herb dosage as explained with reference to information theory. After seeing another dramatic effect from homeopathy in one of my cats this past week, I am again wondering whether information requires any substance or much substance to exert its effects. first, I have rarely seen homeopathy do anything significant in human beings. I have also seen on countless occasions that an increase in herb dosage is the deciding factor in whether a formula is effective. Is it that animals are more sensitive, thus can be easily affected by nonsubstantial medicine? In humans, is the signal to noise ratio not as easily overcome (the noise being the human mind). So perhaps the dosage issue is partially related to a threshold that must be overcome to transfer the information. Maybe in some people,the threshold is very low, others quite high. I have no idea how homeopathy works, but I definitely think herbs exert their effects pharmacologically. Some people object to this, but perhaps it should be considered that biochemistry is a self organizing information system, so the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. The question that remains for me is what determines this information threshold. Perhaps those with functional illnesses with no organic changes have a lower threshold, whereas organic changes require more information to overcome the noise of significant structural change. Perhaps those who live a scrupulous lifestyle have a lower threshold. Perhaps those with extensive damp, phlegm and blood stasis have a higher threshold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2001 Report Share Posted December 1, 2001 wrote: Is it that animals are more sensitive, thus can > be easily affected by nonsubstantial medicine? In humans, is the > signal to noise ratio not as easily overcome (the noise being the human > mind). So perhaps the dosage issue is partially related to a threshold > that must be overcome to transfer the information. Maybe in some > people,the threshold is very low, others quite high. > Here's where I'm convinced that methods to lower that noise ration or brain chatter, such as Qi gong, guided imagery, meditation and Tai Chi are of such value and complement to herbal and acupuncture therapy. At times, I think, unless a patient's mental make up is addressed and influenced there's little hope for organic changes either with herbs, homeopathy or Western meds. I am also turned off by the new age lingo that has infected our profession. However, this is at times the only common language that patients bring to the session, just like the " streets of gold and pie in the sky " that many co-equate with Christianity. It's a point of departure. Fernando Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2001 Report Share Posted December 1, 2001 Of greater interest to me is the issue of herb dosage as explained with reference to information theory. >>>>Going back to dose I have received dr shen formulas from Will and surprised at the low dosage of herbs he used. As he is so revered, and I am assuming because of his clinical success, I wander why he chooses to use such small dosages? Could it be more about correct diagnosis than dosage? who knows Alon - Saturday, December 01, 2001 12:33 PM Re: Digest Number 792 , "Robert L. Felt" <bob@p...> wrote:If this were to prove-out, it > would have a very significant effect on how we think about many Chinese > concepts because the older energetic model would not just be more highly > suspect than it already is but logically excluded in a specific and non-trivial > case.When our profession finally accepts that the long overdue rejection of the energy model of qi is proven mathematically, that will be the beginning of a sea change. This energy model is not only philologically wrong, but its prominence in our field has been a major stumbling block to mainstream scientific acceptance. The energy model of qi has always been ludicrous and every bonafide physicist who has investigated the matter has found the idea laughable. Yet the old guard in our field is still teaching students about energy and "explaining" the effects of CM with simplistic references to quantum physics. Complexity science is much harder to grasp and this may explain why it has not been embraced yet in the acupuncture field. This will also hopefully finally sound the death knell of those practices of so-called energetic medicine that have justified their credibility by piggybacking on the venerability of acupuncture, upon which their practices are supposedly based.Of greater interest to me is the issue of herb dosage as explained with reference to information theory. After seeing another dramatic effect from homeopathy in one of my cats this past week, I am again wondering whether information requires any substance or much substance to exert its effects. first, I have rarely seen homeopathy do anything significant in human beings. I have also seen on countless occasions that an increase in herb dosage is the deciding factor in whether a formula is effective. Is it that animals are more sensitive, thus can be easily affected by nonsubstantial medicine? In humans, is the signal to noise ratio not as easily overcome (the noise being the human mind). So perhaps the dosage issue is partially related to a threshold that must be overcome to transfer the information. Maybe in some people,the threshold is very low, others quite high. I have no idea how homeopathy works, but I definitely think herbs exert their effects pharmacologically. Some people object to this, but perhaps it should be considered that biochemistry is a self organizing information system, so the two ideas are not mutually exclusive. The question that remains for me is what determines this information threshold. Perhaps those with functional illnesses with no organic changes have a lower threshold, whereas organic changes require more information to overcome the noise of significant structural change. Perhaps those who live a scrupulous lifestyle have a lower threshold. Perhaps those with extensive damp, phlegm and blood stasis have a higher threshold.ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2001 Report Share Posted December 1, 2001 Here's where I'm convinced that methods to lower that noise ration or brain chatter, such as Qi gong, guided imagery, meditation and Tai Chi are of such value and complement to herbal and acupuncture therapy. At times, I think, unless a patient's mental make up is addressed and influenced there's little hope for organic changes either with herbs, homeopathy or Western meds. Fernando Hi Fernando, I thought you might like to see this these lists given to our Chinese Nutrition class regarding how the ancients felt about healing methods in ancient times. The methods are listed in priority of effectiveness. Note the at the bottom are acupuncture and herbs. In fact, outside intervention works it's way up from the bottom of the list. You have brought up an excellent point about meditation, etc. The term healing rather than health is used, but I do not have the original source of these lists. Has anyone seen these before? Kit >> >> Ex. #1 >> >> meditation >> exercise >> diet >> astrology >> feng shui >> massage >> herbology >> acupuncture/moxabustion >> >> Ex. #2 >> >> right thinking (conceptions) >> internal exercises >> diet >> physical exercise >> herbology >> acupuncture/moxa >> surgery >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2001 Report Share Posted December 1, 2001 , " fb@a... " <fbernall@a...> wrote: > > I am also turned off by the new age lingo that has infected our profession. However, this is at times the only common language that patients bring to the session, just like the " streets of gold and pie in the sky " that many co-equate with Christianity. It's a point of departure. > > It doesn't bother me that patients use this lingo. It bothers me that practitioners buy into the concepts. But then again, try and explain information theory to a patient. In fact, the reason energy is used as the explanation for qi is because the concept comes from classical mechanistic physics such as electromagnetic theory. there is nothing particularly new or revelatory or hard to understand about this model. In fact, it is quite " old age " which makes it all the more humorous that it has been adopted by those who define themselves as new age. Unschuld has pointed out that the prevailing view of qi in the west is hardly cutting edge or futuristic, but rather a mundane reflection of the times in which we live, one that is obseessed with energy. It reminds me of certain new age pop psychologists who usually dismiss Freud as a narrowminded patriarchal idiot and then abuse his central idea of repressed unconscious memories to explain all manner of human suffering and then declare themselves the founders of this " revolutionary " idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 1, 2001 Report Share Posted December 1, 2001 that's funny alon - Saturday, December 01, 2001 7:28 PM Re: Digest Number 792 , "fb@a..." <fbernall@a...> wrote:> > I am also turned off by the new age lingo that has infected our profession. However, this is at times the only common language that patients bring to the session, just like the "streets of gold and pie in the sky" that many co-equate with Christianity. It's a point of departure.> > It doesn't bother me that patients use this lingo. It bothers me that practitioners buy into the concepts. But then again, try and explain information theory to a patient. In fact, the reason energy is used as the explanation for qi is because the concept comes from classical mechanistic physics such as electromagnetic theory. there is nothing particularly new or revelatory or hard to understand about this model. In fact, it is quite "old age" which makes it all the more humorous that it has been adopted by those who define themselves as new age. Unschuld has pointed out that the prevailing view of qi in the west is hardly cutting edge or futuristic, but rather a mundane reflection of the times in which we live, one that is obseessed with energy. It reminds me of certain new age pop psychologists who usually dismiss Freud as a narrowminded patriarchal idiot and then abuse his central idea of repressed unconscious memories to explain all manner of human suffering and then declare themselves the founders of this "revolutionary" idea. :)ToddChinese Herbal Medicine, a voluntary organization of licensed healthcare practitioners, matriculated students and postgraduate academics specializing in Chinese Herbal Medicine, provides a variety of professional services, including board approved online continuing education. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 3, 2001 Report Share Posted December 3, 2001 A couple of observations... > When our profession finally accepts that the long overdue rejection of > the energy model of qi is proven mathematically, that will be the > beginning of a sea change. Clearly, this sea change can already be noted. However, I think we should stop short of declaring that anything has been proven mathematically. The problem with the " energy model of qi " , as you note below, is that it is simply wrong. I'm speaking here from the perspective of the language and the ideas involved. I believe that the proof of this is contained in the book that we've written on the subject, and I'll not try to shortcut it here. For those who are interested, the book should be available later this month. We don't argue extensively against the interpretation of qi as energy, but I believe that those who read the book will come to recognize that such an interpretation has galling limitations. This energy model is not only > philologically wrong, but its prominence in our field has been a major > stumbling block to mainstream scientific acceptance. The energy model > of qi has always been ludicrous and every bonafide physicist who has > investigated the matter has found the idea laughable. Yet the old > guard in our field is still teaching students about energy and > " explaining " the effects of CM with simplistic references to quantum > physics. One of the functions of the literary transmission of the subject has long been to serve as an anchor or perhaps more accurately the keel of the vessel of Chinese medicine as it sails from one generation to the next. Without this function, the ship is unstable. The example of qi illustrates the general condition of the subject in that highly idiosyncratic interpretations of theory, from the basics on up, have been purveyed and misidentified as the subject itself. Such mistaken ideas and identities have been canonized in the design of curricula and standards for instruction and examination and the resulting structure exhibits a range of predictable weaknesses that have indeed prevented a smooth interchange of ideas with the scientific community and have subjected the entire field to the same galling limitations. This is much less prevalent in China, for example, where the language issue is not as critical as in the West, and where the whole community shares access to the literature. This point about access to the literary materials cannot be overemphasized in the discussion of the correct understanding of qi. Complexity science is much harder to grasp and this may > explain why it has not been embraced yet in the acupuncture field. Yes, indeed, because the prevailing attitude for too long has been to favor an approach to the whole discipline that stresses the quick and the easy. One of the ways in which Chinese medicine and complexity science are similar and compatible is the degree of complexity and difficulty of both subjects. Most Chinese people, lay people who have no special education in traditional medicine, recognize that it is one of the most challenging subjects that exists. The economics of the profession in the States have tended to incorporate a concern for what students are willing to pay for as a primary criterion in curriculm design. Of course, students are primarily interested in paying for those courses that are required by the licensing authorities in order to qualify to sit for the exam. And so the inclusion of reference materials on the lists of the licensing exams puts in place defacto standards that are used to define the education and thus the understanding of all those who pass through the system. One of the reasons why the discussion of these topics is so important and why I've always tried to encourage people to speak out from whatever point of view they possess is so that we can all develop a clearer understanding of how these factors influence our lives. > > Of greater interest to me is the issue of herb dosage as explained with > reference to information theory. After seeing another dramatic effect > from homeopathy in one of my cats this past week, I am again wondering > whether information requires any substance or much substance to exert > its effects. first, I have rarely seen homeopathy do anything > significant in human beings. I have also seen on countless occasions > that an increase in herb dosage is the deciding factor in whether a > formula is effective. Is it that animals are more sensitive, thus can > be easily affected by nonsubstantial medicine? In humans, is the > signal to noise ratio not as easily overcome (the noise being the human > mind). So perhaps the dosage issue is partially related to a threshold > that must be overcome to transfer the information. Maybe in some > people,the threshold is very low, others quite high. You've raised a number of complex issues here. In terms of Chinese medicine, each and every one can be discussed in terms of qi. They are the kinds of questions that we hope to foster and use as the basis for research in pursuing the Complexity and Research Center. I would very much like to see any ideas and suggestions from anyone on the list along these lines. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2001 Report Share Posted December 7, 2001 In a message dated 12/7/2001 7:20:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, writes: > Here's hoping that you will have a pleasant day and that something nice > will come your way. Today's goal for me is to do at least 3 acts of > kindness. > > In love and friendship, > Harold > > Harold... Just a quick note, as it seems I only have time to read and run, these days...but I have never taken the time to thank you and let you know how your thoughts/poems are appreciated. I especially enjoyed todays... Have a wonderful day Katy Lowe, Master Herbalist Buffalo NY Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 7, 2001 Report Share Posted December 7, 2001 Thanks for the reminder, Harold---I'll do the same. Celeste ______________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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