Genes/J. Schwartz

[Guest guest]

Steve,

 

Thanks for your reply. I am always trying to stay grounded with this

stuff, so I don't go out on a tangent. Comments like yours are

helpful for me to organize my thoughts further...I enjoyed your

comments about the pathways of the brain and agree, it is only part

of the mind...

 

I suppose was exposed to germs so I did technically have an

infection...But, I was able to stop it from getting worse with my

mind. My own previous experience, and that of others I have

seen/talked with, was utter terror of germs and infections. Wash that

cut or it will get infected, you will have to go to the doctor and if

it gets worse you will get gangrene seemed to be the thinking... In

other words, no one ever survived a cut before antibiotics!!! LOL.

(it was quite a growing experience for me to realize I didn't need to

take antibiotics for everything. Actually I have been off them for 6

years and doing fine. This is from someone who was a chronic user of

them.)When my cut in dirt, there were dirt particles there-in the

cut...!!!! And still, if there was an infection, it was very small-

unnoticeable-no irritation-none-and the cut just healed....It is a

very weird experience to witness this. I suggest you try it

sometime...Jack Schwartz explained to a class I attended how he was

able not to get infections from having dirty sail maker needles

through his arms and then, not bleed, and then, almost hard to

believe, pull the cut back closed with his mind! Almost hard to

believe but true...

 

Anyway, it seems from my readings/personal experience that disease

seems to appear where mind isn't. Out of our denials....or

unconscious, or pieces of ourselves that are cut off, feel

neglected....This is what drew me to C. Myss.

 

Carl Jung said that what is not made conscious shows up as fate. I

would humbly amend and if we don't get the message through fate, it

shows up in our body!!!! The autoimmune disease thing can be

explained by warring subpersonalities within ones subconsious is

something I've seemed to have noticed...

 

What is the evidence that genes can be changed by the mind? I would

like to be taller, how can I do it!(lol) But seriously...I'd like to

know..that is interesting...Any research? Also agree that some

things will probably not be detected by machines...

 

Anyway, always good to find someone who is up for this

discussion...Thanks for your reply.

 

Scott

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

>What is the evidence that genes can be changed by the mind? I would

>like to be taller, how can I do it!(lol)

 

That is a serious and respectable thought. Personally, I'd like to be about

3 " shorter.

 

There is a raging discussion on another list about growing taller.

Today, I am not in favor of it.

Yes, the mind can have you grow taller, but there is little/no *research*

on the ramifications/side effects.

 

See, after our growing phase (somewhere before age 30) our bone ends fuse

to prevent further growth. What happens if we force growth anyway?

Well, maybe the middle of the legs will extend. Could that weaken the

legs? Maybe leave you crippled? There is no research I'm aware of to

indicate what happens.

What if the back tries to grow?

Could you end up with a weakened back? maybe a paraplegic?

It's not my place to stop you if you want to be a lab rat and experiment on

yourself. But I do recommend against self-experimentation )

 

>But seriously...I'd like to know..that is interesting...

>Any research? Also agree that some

>things will probably not be detected by machines...

 

There are several books by Ernest Rossi or David Cheeks

on how the mind and body work together and I believe they cover how the

mind effects the endocrine system and how the endocrine system has an

effect on genes.

 

We live in wonderful times )

 

Steve

[Guest guest]

Hi Scott,

 

>I have read the books by Ernest Rossi and David Cheeks but

>I don't remember the topic of changing your genes being very

>extensive, if anything I remember it being conjecture...

 

First, I did not mean to say those particular sitings were extensive,

nor the only word on the topic. Just works which immediately come

to mind.

 

Also I said

" There are several books by Ernest Rossi or David Cheeks

on how the mind and body work together and I believe they cover how the

mind effects the endocrine system and how the endocrine system has an

effect on genes. "

 

Effect on genes is what I said, not 'change your genes'

 

See, genes do not lay dormant and act as blueprints for the body, they are

quite active and are effected by hormones which can be modulated by the

hypothalamus.

Now there are many aspects of the body which have been *assumed* to

be fixed and regulated by our genes which it turns out ain't entirely so.

 

Hair color for instance.

My haircolor has been red, blonde, and brown

eye color.

People's eyecolor sometimes changes over the years.

 

Everything isn't locked in solid!

 

>While I'm on the subject, whatever happened to Rossi and Cheeks, that

>one book seemed to be their Magnum Opus and then Rossi went on to

>other things and Cheeks, well, I have not heard much about him

>since...

 

Rossi is still writing

You might want to check out his

" The Psychobiology of Gene Expression "

 

:Outlines the relationship between genes and human experience.

:The understandings of gene expression emerging from the

:Human Genome Project

:are setting the stage for a profound expansion of our understanding of life.

:We are just now beginning to learn how the brain, body, and genes interact

in

:everyday life. Here, Ernest Rossi introduces the new science of psychosocial

:genomics and explores how it will profoundly change our understanding of the

:pathways of communication among mind, body, and spirit.

 

>He had some great stuff on hypnotism and childbirth, I

>thought...It has literally amazed me that that stuff hasn't filtered

>down into the minds of young women. I saw my sister have a lot of

>trouble with her second child's birth(we are both adopted and have

>issues around our births)but she seemed a little incredulous that

>there was anything in her unconscious that could cause delivery

>probs...and she is an RN!

 

It's slow, but I personally make good money in the painless childbirth area

)

 

>I will go the library and look at the endocrine stuff again...

 

heavy reading.

Also check out the AMA journal for the past few years.

Along with Nature, and some of the other science journals.

 

>Although you didn't mention it and may not know it,

>Jack Schwarz died of lung cancer almost three years ago.

 

Never heard of him until now.

what did he do?

 

> He was able to not get infections but was a heavy smoker...

>go figure...

 

It is certainly possible to overwhelm our mind/body, isn't it?

 

>Looking forward to knowing much more about genetic alteration by the

>mind...Would love to know research....as I want to stay grounded and

>away from science fiction...

 

I think I'd look for information on controlling gene expression

with the mind as opposed to altering the genes themselves

 

steve

[Guest guest]

Steve,

 

I have read the books by Ernest Rossi and David Cheeks but I don't

remember the topic of changing your genes being very extensive, if

anything I remember it being conjecture...

 

While I'm on the subject, whatever happened to Rossi and Cheeks, that

one book seemed to be their Magnum Opus and then Rossi went on to

other things and Cheeks, well, I have not heard much about him

since...He had some great stuff on hypnotism and childbirth, I

thought...It has literally amazed me that that stuff hasn't filtered

down into the minds of young women. I saw my sister have a lot of

trouble with her second child's birth(we are both adopted and have

issues around our births)but she seemed a little incredulous that

there was anything in her unconscious that could cause delivery

probs...and she is an RN!

 

I will go the library and look at the endocrine stuff again...

 

Although you didn't mention it and may not know it, Jack Schwarz died

of lung cancer almost three years ago. He was able to not get

infections but was a heavy smoker...go figure...

 

Elmer Green said that people confuse the siddhis with enlightenment,

(when asked about Swami Rama's problems with sexual harrassment of

his young female followers...)

 

Looking forward to knowing much more about genetic alteration by the

mind...Would love to know research....as I want to stay grounded and

away from science fiction...

 

Thanks again,

 

Scott

[Guest guest]

Steve,

 

I'm glad you highlighted the words " effect on genes "

 

When I see someone talking about making yourself taller, to me at

least, you are " changing " not effecting your genes. I have a hard

time thinking the height genes are able to be expressed one way or

another. It simply isn't backed up in the population, imho. I don't

see really tall people coming from short people. It seems like height

is just simple Mendelian genetics... Everyone in my genetic family

is short. I was adopted and no idea of my " shortness " until I found

them 10 years ago...they were all short, with my genetic grandfather

being my exact height.

 

Your comment on eye color is different. I can see that in myself. I

had more green eyes when I was younger. NOw they are bluer. And

babies eyes start out blue then change. It reminds me of mulitple

personality disorder(if one believes in a dissociative continuum) and

the cases where eye color was changed...I always wondered how this

could happen...

 

I was just reading a psychobiology site on the internet. I will find

Rossi's book and read it.

 

So are you an OB? I really liked Cheeks hypno- stuff.

 

Never heard of Jack Schwartz?? tsk tsk!! He worked with Elmer

Green of Menningers. He was the guy who could put rusty sailmaker

needles through his arms, not register pain, not bleed, not get

infections and close his wounds without registering beta on eeg. No

infections, no marks-it was studied quite extensively. Quite

extensively. Heavy ! Always showed me the germ theory was not always

fact. This sort of thing is always explained away by the current

view point in my view point! It does not surprise me that he is

unknown. He, along with Swami Rama is mentioned extensively in

Green's book, Beyond Biofeedback. He also wrote books himself.

 

Anyway, thanks for your reply..

 

Scott

 

 

, steve <whitaker@c...> wrote:

> Hi Scott,

>

> >I have read the books by Ernest Rossi and David Cheeks but

> >I don't remember the topic of changing your genes being very

> >extensive, if anything I remember it being conjecture...

>

> First, I did not mean to say those particular sitings were

extensive,

> nor the only word on the topic. Just works which immediately come

> to mind.

>

> Also I said

> " There are several books by Ernest Rossi or David Cheeks

> on how the mind and body work together and I believe they cover how

the

> mind effects the endocrine system and how the endocrine system has

an

> effect on genes. "

>

> Effect on genes is what I said, not 'change your genes'

>

> See, genes do not lay dormant and act as blueprints for the body,

they are

> quite active and are effected by hormones which can be modulated by

the

> hypothalamus.

> Now there are many aspects of the body which have been *assumed* to

> be fixed and regulated by our genes which it turns out ain't

entirely so.

>

> Hair color for instance.

> My haircolor has been red, blonde, and brown

> eye color.

> People's eyecolor sometimes changes over the years.

>

> Everything isn't locked in solid!

>

> >While I'm on the subject, whatever happened to Rossi and Cheeks,

that

> >one book seemed to be their Magnum Opus and then Rossi went on to

> >other things and Cheeks, well, I have not heard much about him

> >since...

>

> Rossi is still writing

> You might want to check out his

> " The Psychobiology of Gene Expression "

>

> :Outlines the relationship between genes and human experience.

> :The understandings of gene expression emerging from the

> :Human Genome Project

> :are setting the stage for a profound expansion of our

understanding of life.

> :We are just now beginning to learn how the brain, body, and genes

interact

> in

> :everyday life. Here, Ernest Rossi introduces the new science of

psychosocial

> :genomics and explores how it will profoundly change our

understanding of the

> :pathways of communication among mind, body, and spirit.

>

> >He had some great stuff on hypnotism and childbirth, I

> >thought...It has literally amazed me that that stuff hasn't

filtered

> >down into the minds of young women. I saw my sister have a lot of

> >trouble with her second child's birth(we are both adopted and have

> >issues around our births)but she seemed a little incredulous that

> >there was anything in her unconscious that could cause delivery

> >probs...and she is an RN!

>

> It's slow, but I personally make good money in the painless

childbirth area

> )

>

> >I will go the library and look at the endocrine stuff again...

>

> heavy reading.

> Also check out the AMA journal for the past few years.

> Along with Nature, and some of the other science journals.

>

> >Although you didn't mention it and may not know it,

> >Jack Schwarz died of lung cancer almost three years ago.

>

> Never heard of him until now.

> what did he do?

>

> > He was able to not get infections but was a heavy smoker...

> >go figure...

>

> It is certainly possible to overwhelm our mind/body, isn't it?

>

> >Looking forward to knowing much more about genetic alteration by

the

> >mind...Would love to know research....as I want to stay grounded

and

> >away from science fiction...

>

> I think I'd look for information on controlling gene expression

> with the mind as opposed to altering the genes themselves

>

> steve

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

>When I see someone talking about making yourself taller, to me at

>least, you are " changing " not effecting your genes. I have a hard

>time thinking the height genes are able to be expressed one way or

>another. It simply isn't backed up in the population, imho. I don't

>see really tall people coming from short people. It seems like height

>is just simple Mendelian genetics... Everyone in my genetic family

>is short. I was adopted and no idea of my " shortness " until I found

>them 10 years ago...they were all short, with my genetic grandfather

>being my exact height.

 

I don't totally discount the possibility of growing taller.

I just question the wisdom.

 

Now it is a common belief that the body is not static, that it

recreates/rebuilds itself periodically.

If the mind intervenes and changes your height, what happens when

the body recreates itself? My genes say build me 5', I intervene and

through hypnosis grow to 6'.

What happens when my body/mind follows my genetic blueprint rebuilds

me, but does so to the 5' specifications?

How will the two mix?

 

OR, if my bones have fused, but my mind honors my wishes, might it just

add space between my vertebrae?

Could that weaken my back and ultimately leave me paralyzed?

 

Just too many possible problems for me to consider experimenting.

 

>Your comment on eye color is different. I can see that in myself. I

>had more green eyes when I was younger. NOw they are bluer. And

>babies eyes start out blue then change. It reminds me of mulitple

>personality disorder(if one believes in a dissociative continuum) and

>the cases where eye color was changed...I always wondered how this

>could happen...

 

It would seem *to me* there is more than just on-off to the genes.

 

>I was just reading a psychobiology site on the internet. I will find

>Rossi's book and read it.

>

>So are you an OB? I really liked Cheeks hypno- stuff.

 

I am a hypnotherapist.

I specialize in what most would consider impossible, but it's fun )

 

>Never heard of Jack Schwartz?? tsk tsk!! He worked with Elmer

>Green of Menningers. He was the guy who could put rusty sailmaker

>needles through his arms, not register pain, not bleed, not get

>infections and close his wounds without registering beta on eeg.

 

Nothing special about that.

Stage hypnotists have done it for decades.

Just takes a trance level below somnambulism.

 

>No infections, no marks-it was studied quite extensively. Quite

>extensively. Heavy !

 

Under really *deep* trance, the body becomes *extremely* flaccid

long as you don't nick an artery as you push the hatpin through the arm

Hypnosis has been used at the Mayo clinic since it was founded.

hypnosis to block pain, hypnosis to stop bleeding, hypnosis to speed

healing, hypnosis to regulate body temperature, etc

 

>Always showed me the germ theory was not always fact.

 

Rusty needles do not have germs by definition, do they.

 

>This sort of thing is always explained away by the current

>view point in my view point! It does not surprise me that he is

>unknown. He, along with Swami Rama is mentioned extensively in

>Green's book, Beyond Biofeedback. He also wrote books himself.

 

Thanks, I hope I'll remember him

 

>Anyway, thanks for your reply..

 

love a good conversation.

Hope I don't disappoint as I clarify things.

Some might think my position is on the edge, even if I don't like the

idea of growing taller by hypnosis.

 

steve

[Guest guest]

Hello,

 

Somehow what I have been saying has been confused.

Perhaps with Jon's post?

 

>You might be implying that I have been duped by a stage hypnotist...

 

Not me. I know very well what hypnotism is capable of.

 

>Ah, let me elaborate-before you think I am naive and/or I call you

>James Randi impersonators(lol).

 

not necessary as far as I'm concerned.

 

>This would imply that not only myself but then many other researchers

>were then duped. I'm sure people with Ph.D.'s are fallable and I'm

>sure when they watched the needles going in at different places each

>time-the wounds closing by themselves-they may not detect a faker

>before their eyes. But then, anything is possible.

 

Having a PhD. means nothing to me except they endured many years of

the school system.

 

>Your comments seemed to suggest that I went to a circus sideshow and

>from that experience postulated the germ theory to be bogus. You may

>not have intended this, but it seemed that way.

 

I could see you getting this from Jon's post, but mine???

 

>Let me elaborate-if that is ok with you. One published account as

>follows:

>

> " In studies conducted at the Menninger Foundation, the University of

>California's Langley Porter Neuropsychiatric Institute and others,

>Schwarz astonished doctors by sticking mammoth six inch sail maker's

>needles completely through his arms without bleeding, without

>flinching, and without producing beta brainwaives(the type of

>brainwaves normally produced when a person is in pain). Even when

>the needles were removed, Schwarz did not bleed, and the puncture

>holes closed tightly(how could the holes close tightly if it was an

>opening in plain view that was supposedly an open scar tissue

>tunnel?). In addition, Schwarz altered his brain-wave rhythms at

>will, held burning cigarettes against his flesh without harming

>himself, and even carried live coals around in his hands. " (a fake

>limb perhaps?)

 

Easily done with deeper hypnosis.

you can get a brief spurt from nicking an artery. dramatic and messy ;-)

 

>Also Steve, are you saying that there is such a thing as sterile

>rust? That is new to me. I guess you could create it in an

>autoclave. That is beside the point. The needles were not dipped

>into alcohol beforehand (or cleaned before you say alcohol isn't the

>only thing that can sterilize) Plenty of germs.

 

No, only that rust does not equal germs, or any amount of germs.

rust is merely oxidation of metal. germs need not be present.

I know many people who have stepped on rusty nails without getting

infected.

There is no direct link.

 

>Elmer Green is not some unknown pseudo scientist. He has his Ph.D. in

>Biological Psychology from the University of Chicago. More

>importantly, he is generally known as the ***FATHER OF BIOFEEDBACK***

>and from that, one would assume, he (and the scientists at Langley

>Porter and other research facilities at which he was studied )would

>notice the needles going into the same " scar hole " each time. There

>is additional research mentioned where other subjects have had vital

>organs pierced and where the researchers were allowed to run the

>swords through the person themselves. However, I suppose some of the

>researchers could have been in on it too-like plants in a David

>Copperfield show-you never know!

 

That was Jon who referred to scarring of holes.

I know better.

I don't demonstrate it because of the tendancy for lawsuits.

Such work is better served on the operating table

no bleeding or minimal/controlled bleeding is great in the operating room.

Mayo brothers (founders of the Mayo clinic) regularly used hypnosis

in the operating room.

 

>At any rate, I feel like I am talking here with Pen and Teller. I

>suppose that the people who believe there were never any lunar

>landings can say it was all faked in Hollywood. I can't say much to

>those who haven't studied the research, nor heard of these people

>(which without intending insult or arrogance, surprises me a little

>on a mind/body list.)

 

you can go there if you want

 

>At any rate, re: levitation. Michael Murphy mentioned in his book,

>the Future of the Body, that he doubts that any of the levitation

>charisms were real(has anyone read this book? Or are we going to

>debate the word " real, " Steve????LOL) Anyway, I have no opinions on

>this.

 

If it makes you happy, we can debate the word 'real'.

But what's your intended outcome?

 

>Scott

 

>Who still think the germ theory works but isn't the final answer on

>infectious disease....

 

kewl, we kinda agree

[Guest guest]

Steve/Jon,

 

You might be implying that I have been duped by a stage hypnotist...

 

Ah, let me elaborate-before you think I am naive and/or I call you

James Randi impersonators(lol).

 

This would imply that not only myself but then many other researchers

were then duped. I'm sure people with Ph.D.'s are fallable and I'm

sure when they watched the needles going in at different places each

time-the wounds closing by themselves-they may not detect a faker

before their eyes. But then, anything is possible.

 

Your comments seemed to suggest that I went to a circus sideshow and

from that experience postulated the germ theory to be bogus. You may

not have intended this, but it seemed that way.

 

Let me elaborate-if that is ok with you. One published account as

follows:

 

" In studies conducted at the Menninger Foundation, the University of

California's Langley Porter Neuropsychiatric Institute and others,

Schwarz astonished doctors by sticking mammoth six inch sail maker's

needles completely through his arms without bleeding, without

flinching, and without producing beta brainwaives(the type of

brainwaves normally produced when a person is in pain). Even when

the needles were removed, Schwarz did not bleed, and the puncture

holes closed tightly(how could the holes close tightly if it was an

opening in plain view that was supposedly an open scar tissue

tunnel?). In addition, Schwarz altered his brain-wave rhythms at

will, held burning cigarettes against his flesh without harming

himself, and even carried live coals around in his hands. " (a fake

limb perhaps?)

 

Also Steve, are you saying that there is such a thing as sterile

rust? That is new to me. I guess you could create it in an

autoclave. That is beside the point. The needles were not dipped

into alcohol beforehand (or cleaned before you say alcohol isn't the

only thing that can sterilize) Plenty of germs.

 

Elmer Green is not some unknown pseudo scientist. He has his Ph.D. in

Biological Psychology from the University of Chicago. More

importantly, he is generally known as the ***FATHER OF BIOFEEDBACK***

and from that, one would assume, he (and the scientists at Langley

Porter and other research facilities at which he was studied )would

notice the needles going into the same " scar hole " each time. There

is additional research mentioned where other subjects have had vital

organs pierced and where the researchers were allowed to run the

swords through the person themselves. However, I suppose some of the

researchers could have been in on it too-like plants in a David

Copperfield show-you never know!

 

At any rate, I feel like I am talking here with Pen and Teller. I

suppose that the people who believe there were never any lunar

landings can say it was all faked in Hollywood. I can't say much to

those who haven't studied the research, nor heard of these people

(which without intending insult or arrogance, surprises me a little

on a mind/body list.)

 

At any rate, re: levitation. Michael Murphy mentioned in his book,

the Future of the Body, that he doubts that any of the levitation

charisms were real(has anyone read this book? Or are we going to

debate the word " real, " Steve????LOL) Anyway, I have no opinions on

this.

 

Scott

Who still think the germ theory works but isn't the final answer on

infectious disease....