Digest Number 1069

[Guest guest]

Z'ev, and All,

 

For old timers on the list, this must seem

like a recurring dream...or nightmare. But

I will try and answer Todd's question(s)

as simply and directly as I know how.

 

It is only necessary, as far as I know

and am concerned, that someone who either

wants to or says that they do understand

any of the various traditions that trace

their origins through the various texts

that we loosely call the Chinese medical

classics be able to judge for themselves

what those classics are all about.

 

No translation will do the trick.

 

Perhaps the most basic reason has to do

with reason itself. The ways in which

ancient Chinese writers reasoned are

quite different from the ways in which

modern native English speakers(as well as many

other languages) reason.

 

This is a level of learning that is

quite possible to miss completely

if one depends on translations alone,

as this more or less completely obscures

the dimension of the reasoning which is

inherent in the language itself.

 

This is true to greater or lesser

extents in dealing with any body of

knowledge in any language. But it is

particularly pertinent to classical

Chinese and hence to the medical

classics that were written in this

subtle and complex language.

 

As Lin Yu Tang pointed out it was

a coterie language that worked through

suggestion and association of ideas,

and if we don't know the associations,

i.e., the patterns of reasoning, and

the material to which we are directed

by the various suggestions found within

the texts, then how are we to make

sense out of them at all?

 

Do the contemporary Chinese experts

think this is a requirement?

 

If they did not, there would not be

a course in Ancient Medical Language

as part of the required curriculum

in virtually every institution of

higher education purveying advanced

training in traditional Chinese medicine.

 

And in many quarters, there is a

growing consensus among TCM educators

that this dimension of the study has

been under-represented in the overall

design of the training programs until

today. And steps are being taken in

certain places...I'm thinking specifically

of Chengdu here...to remedy this deficiency.

 

I cannot speak to any consensus of

opinion here as my personal contacts

are so limited. I am hopeful of being

able to collect an adequate sampling

of opinion on such subjects soon, and

you know that I will share whatever

I discover.

 

Z'ev made the very excellent point that

even a little bit of study of the language

goes a long way. And he mentioned that

great book, Yuan Dao. Roger Ames'

introduction is one of the best essays

on Han thinking I've ever read.

 

Can one practice medicine without knowing

medical Chinese or the contents of the

Chinese medical classics?

 

Of course.

 

Can one appreciate what the traditions

that constitute traditional Chinese medicine

are all about without knowing medical

Chinese and at least the basics of what

the contents of medical classics are all

about?

 

I don't see how.

 

At least I can frankly state that prior to

learning a little bit of Chinese myself and

taking a look at some of these texts with

my own eyes I had many, many misconceptions

of what even the most basic terms meant

and virtually no accurate understanding

of what the texts meant, how they mean it, or

how I should understand and apply it.

 

And I had spent more than 20 years studying

prior to that point.

 

Were those 20 years useless or meaningless?

 

Not to me.

 

Am I saying that everyone's education is

pointless unless they have already learned

Chinese?

 

Of course not.

 

But let's get real.

 

If someone came to you and said they

were expert in Shakespeare, but they

had to tell you in Chinese because they

couldn't speak English, what would you

think?

 

Ken

[Guest guest]

, <yulong@m...> wrote:

>

> But let's get real.

>

> If someone came to you and said they

> were expert in Shakespeare, but they

> had to tell you in Chinese because they

> couldn't speak English, what would you

> think?

>

> Ken

 

Come on Ken, you can't get away with this one; if we're talking about

Shakespearian literature

then off course it doesn't exist outside of language. Medicine is a

different fruit, the question is, to what extent? Back to the issue

of objective realities vs a relative reality conditioned by

experience and language. I think that prehaps the pragmatic medical

tide of maximum clinical results for minimum effort is flowing away

from your position.

 

However, for people wondering whether to put the effort into learning

to read Chinese, prehaps other peoples' experiences would be

interesting.

 

My own, is of being inspired to learn to read medical Chinese in 1986

by Ted Kaptchuck, actually starting to do it in 1990, but being put

off by my PhD supervisors who thought it wasn't necessary for the

philosophical topic of " patterns of thought in Chinese medicine " . I

disagreed, but found learning Chinese, working and doing the Phd

together too much so I stopped the

PhD and since have found myself in a constant dynamic between

learning to read the language which I love and which has given me

certain areas of expertise and insight whilst on the other hand

spending the time reading and memorising the bulk of translated

material necessary to be clinically effective and earn a living.

 

At the moment I conclude that at the work front, time and energy

would be better spent on translated texts, but that prehaps the

learning of the language is important at some remove such as

intellectual/ emotional fulfilment,ground breaking, teaching,

writing, kudos, etc.

 

So for some of those reasons I do it.

 

Simon

[Guest guest]

At the moment I conclude that at the work front, time and energy would be better spent on translated texts, but that prehaps the learning of the language is important at some remove such as intellectual/ emotional fulfilment,ground breaking, teaching, writing, kudos, etc.>>>>>Simon I totally agree with this statements and I think we all have different ideas about intellectual/emotional needs, and their use.

alon

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 1/25/2003 4:45:04 AM Central Standard Time,

writes:

 

 

> " Don't spend your precious time asking 'Why isn't the world a better

> place?' It will only be time wasted. The question to ask is 'How can I

> make it better?' To that there is an answer. "

>

> Leo F. Buscaglia, Author of " The Way Of The Bull "

>

 

Do you remember when Leo Buscaglia came to Wartburg, maybe our freshman year,

and spoke in one of our " beloved " convocations? I liked him, I remember...

and most of those others I cannot even remember. But him, I remember. Also,

Cesar Chavez.