Digest Number 1258

December 31, 2002

Hi all, Thanks, for putting up the article on depression and pain. I, too, saw it and was struck by the way WM is "catching on" to the fact that physiology and psychology are really very much connected. You as well as others know that this is the type of work I am currently engaged in digging up. Every day there seems like more opportunity for the dialogue between CM and WM to open up, especially within (as Jim mentioned) the systems approach that is gradually infiltrating (thankfully) WM. Anyway, there are actually two issues that I would love to hear the CHA perspective on. The first is suicide and CM. As I'm working with the Beijing Suicide Research & Prevention Center in diagnosing and (maybe) treating the cases of depression that come through (interestingly, in China only 25% of all attempted suicides are depression-- the others being anger, impulsivity, and financial hardship among others), I have started to think about how CM has traditionally explained or thought about suicide or thoughts of suicide. I'm wondering if anyone out there has read anything they can share with me. I would appreciate any references at all! The second issue I've been starting to think about is creativity and CM. I would love to know if anyone has read anything or can refer me to any literature about the process of creating (art, music, language, etc.) in CM. I'm not expecting much, but I would love to know if there has ever been any sort of analysis of the more creatively productive personalities/constitutions in Chinese history. That's all for now! Happy New Year, Sonya Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com

December 31, 2002

A good english source book that I think covers the subject from a

traditional point of view is Vivien Ng's " Madness in Late Imperial

China " .

How is Beijing weather this winter?

All the best,

On Tuesday, December 31, 2002, at 01:22 PM, Sonya Pritzker wrote:

> Anyway, there are actually two issues that I would love to hear the

> CHA perspective on. The first is suicide and CM. As I'm working with

> the Beijing Suicide Research & Prevention Center in diagnosing and

> (maybe) treating the cases of depression! that come through

> (interestingly, in China only 25% of all attempted suicides are

> depression-- the others being anger, impulsivity, and financial

> hardship among others), I have started to think about how CM has

> traditionally explained or thought about suicide or thoughts of

> suicide. I'm wondering if anyone out there has read anything they can

> share with me. I would appreciate any references at all!

December 31, 2002

that is interesting to compare with american suicide statistics:

Suicide is the 11th leading cause of death in the US. 90% is the result

of depression and diagnosed or undiagnosed bipolar disorder.

Cara

>

>> Anyway, there are actually two issues that I would love to hear the

>> CHA perspective on. The first is suicide and CM. As I'm working

>> with the Beijing Suicide Research & Prevention Center in diagnosing

>> and (maybe) treating the cases of depression! that come through

>> (interestingly, in China only 25% of all attempted suicides are

>> depression-- the others being anger, impulsivity, and financial

>> hardship among others), I have started to think about how CM has

>> traditionally explained or thought about suicide or thoughts of

>> suicide. I'm wondering if anyone out there has read anything they

>> can share with me. I would appreciate any references at all!

January 2, 2003

Dear Sonya,

You put forth two fundamental questions to the list which I

believe can only be answered after a thoroughgoing research .

On the question of suicide, there are two books written by two

Qing Dynasty medical scholars which featured 'emergency

measures''ji jiu' in dealing with suicides either through hanging,

cutting of the throat or drowning. The first book is Yi Xue Jian

Neng (Seeing the Capacity of Medicine ,1873) ) by Tang Zong

Hai Rong Chuan and the other is 'Ji Jiu Guang Sheng ji (A

Collection of Works On Emergency Measures To Broaden Life)

by Cheng Pang Cheng . The latter work contains brief accounts

of suicide through cutting ones' throat '. and one case was

brought about by 'wrangling' 'kou jiao'.

Tang Zong Hai Rong Chuan 's book has an appended

chapter on 'Emergency Measures ' 'jiu ji' . In introducting this

chapter he writes a verse which I think might give you clues on

your querry about 'creativity'. I have translated the verse into

English which goes:

People dealing with emergencies

must know the particulars,

Life at an instant may be compromised.

Without doubt nor fear

A formula (fang) fits a clinical pattern (zheng)

Creativity (zao hua) is brought back

Leading to good luck !

Regards,

Rey Tiquia

Phd Candidate

Dept. of History and Philosophy of Science

University of Melbourne

Parkville

Victoria

Australia

, " Sonya Pritzker "

<spritzker15@h...> wrote:

>

> Hi all,

> Thanks, for putting up the article on depression and

pain. I, too, saw it and was struck by the way WM is " catching on "

to the fact that physiology and psychology are really very much

connected. You as well as others know that this is the type of

work I am currently engaged in digging up. Every day there

seems like more opportunity for the dialogue between CM and

WM to open up, especially within (as Jim mentioned) the

systems approach that is gradually infiltrating (thankfully) WM.

> Anyway, there are actually two issues that I would love to hear

the CHA perspective on. The first is suicide and CM. As I'm

working with the Beijing Suicide Research & Prevention Center

in diagnosing and (maybe) treating the cases of depression that

come through (interestingly, in China only 25% of all attempted

suicides are depression-- the others being anger, impulsivity,

and financial hardship among others), I have started to think

about how CM has traditionally explained or thought about

suicide or thoughts of suicide. I'm wondering if anyone out there

has read anything they can share with me. I would appreciate

any references at all!

> The second issue I've been starting to think about is creativity

and CM. I would love to know if anyone has read anything or can

refer me to any literature about the process of creating (art,

music, language, etc.) in CM. I'm not expecting much, but I

would love to know if there has ever been any sort of analysis of

the more creatively productive personalities/constitutions in

Chinese history.

> That's all for now! Happy New Year,

> SonyaGet more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download :

http://explorer.msn.com

January 3, 2003

Dear Rey,

Good to hear from you (I was worried you left the list for another list:-)

Any comments on Chinese medicine and time?

Marco

April 23, 2004

Dear Franke,

Sai Ram. That is a greeting, a mantra and a blessing from my Spiritual Master

Sai Baba of Shirdi. Pronounced as Saayee Raam. What you wrote was truly great.

Thanks for sharing.

Swamy

www.freewebs.com/svswamy

Message: 1

Tue, 20 Apr 2004 15:52:08 EDT

Franke1902

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January 21, 2006

Re: Message: 1

Fri, 20 Jan 2006 17:14:29 -0500

George Mandler <gmandler

Cadaver dissection course for acupuncturists.

George, et al:

Cadaver dissection courses are classically refered to as " gross human

anatomy " . My husband has taught at the U of MN med school for almost thirty

years, and works closely with the department of anatomy. We've been talking

about putting together a " gross human anatomy for acupuncture " course for at

least a year now. Unfortunately, the facilities at my TCM school would not

support such a program, and the administration typically rejects any suggest

which " is not in keeping with Traditional " (?!?!) . Next Wed.,

I'm meeting with one of the members of the anatomy section faculty at the U of

MN, and we're going to discuss the costs associated with holding such a course

there, at their facilities in Minneapolis, MN. They seem interested in hosting

such a course. I've discussed it with our best acupuncture instructor, and he

is extremely interested, as well (our administration has issues, but the faculty

is excellent).

If people who are seriously interested in attending a two day, weekend course

(in the spring or summer, of course, when the weather is better) would please

reply to this email, it will give us some idea of how many people might

participate. We already have a number of local licensees who have indicated

interest, as well as some students.

Thank you for raising the issue and reminding me to discuss it!

Best Regards,

Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

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January 21, 2006

Re: Message: 17

Sat, 21 Jan 2006 08:31:37 +0100

Thomas Bøgedal Sørensen <>

Re: Digest Number 1257

Hey Thomas, Z'ev, et al;

First Z'ev, if you doubt what I'm saying about our clinic, I invite you to

come up here for a visit (well, maybe not in January :-) ) I just treated my

husband at school for the first time. He's taught in a medical school for

almost thirty years. His first comment was: Good God (sorry for the religious

reference); can't someone vacuum the floors around here?? " . His next comment

was, " Can't someone paint these filthy walls? It looks like a ghetto!! " . As he

lay on the treatment table, which offered a closer view of the carpet, he

announced " you've got an infestation of insects! Disgusting! " Then my professor

came in to supervise my work. He asked why I didn't needle two more auricular

points. I patiently explained that we were out of covery needles. He glanced

at the table and saw an old, opened pack, lying outside of the clean field. He

said " why don't you use those? " . I was compelled to politely explain that they

were lying there, open, outside of the clean field, prior

to the current treatment; as such, I considered them to be contaminated and

unsuitable for use. My professor snorted, shook his head at me, and walked out

of the treatment room. My husband was astounded. Now you know why I won't ask

friends or family members, especially medical professionals, to come to clinic,

even though we are compelled, at my school, to actively recruit our own patients

(not that I mind, since we'll have to do so once we're licensed). I am simply

too ashamed, on one hand, and afraid, on the other hand, that someone

knowledgeable will report our clinic to the state health department. Won't that

look good for the profession! You've only heard a few of the more egregious

examples. I could write a book. But I won't, since I really believe in OM and

want it to survive and grow in the U.S.

I've been going to medical professionals for almost five decades now, and I've

NEVER visited an M.D. who met me in a shirt and slacks. If it is an office

visit with a specialist, they occasionally meet patients *at their desk*, never

in examination, while wearing a suit, or sport coat and tie, but NEVER in just a

shirt and slacks. I would think that he was either careless about his

professional appearance or disrespectful of me as a patient if my physician

dressed in a shirt and slacks alone. I would wonder if he was suffering from

major depression, or some other major mental illness, if he met patients dressed

in such a casual, careless, disrespectful manner. Same with my dentist and

orthodontist. While working at the Mayo Clinic, and later, practicing health

law, I saw too many cases of severe permanent physical injury caused by chiro's

to ever submit myself (or someone I love) to their " care " , so I've never

actually seen one, except in court, sitting at the defense table

:-) So I have no idea how they dress when treating patients, however, the

local chiro school requires lab jackets or coats for everyone, in compliance

with OSHA PPE requirements (allopathic medical schools have the same

requirement), so I would guess that chiro licensed practitioners do, as well....

Cultural difference? Perhaps. When I practiced law, there were a few fellows

who wandered around in a shirt and slacks, but they were treated as eccentrics

or worse; *most* attorneys *knew* how to dress in a manner that reflected

competence and success. When I taught grad school to professional hospital

administrators, I wore a suit, because I was teaching a group of professionals

who dressed in a similarly professional manner. Some of their professors showed

up in " just a shirt and slacks " , but they were considered to be eccentrics,

depressed, etc. Students frequently ridiculed their unprofessional appearance

(albeit never to their face). But hey, those guys were " comfortable " ...so

that's all that really counts, right?

My own dear spouse refuses to wear a tie and is frequently ridiculed at the

medical school. However, I have to weigh in on the side of the medical

professionals. I think he is setting a poor example for his students. I know

what a wonderful, brilliant person he is, but he simply doesn't convey a

professional image. He also gets fewer raises and promotions than other

professors. He didn’t get tenure until I married him, forced him to buy a blue

suit and get a haircut! No more “Einstein-hippy hair”! I had to teach the man

to learn how to project a competent, successful image when petitioning for

tenure. Only then did he receive it, even though he is unquestionably the most

competent and productive individual in his department. That’s the harsh reality

in the western medical community. They have certain standards. Get used to it,

because they aren't going to change for you, or anyone else. No matter how

productive and competent you might fancy yourself.

Thomas, in the United States, we have a law (OSHA) that requires medical

profesionals to wear PPEs (eg lab coats) when coming in close contact with

patients. Physicians (and even nurses) wear lab coats when meeting patients.

Even the practical nurses at my clinic wear lab coats (they are professionals

with a wopping eight months of training). So do dentists, etc. They hang their

diplomas on the wall. Also their licenses to practice, but that's a legal

requirement.

It never occurred to me that my husband's brilliant neurosurgeon, (who saved

my spouses life after a stroke filled his ventricles with blood), was " insecure "

because he dresses appropriately and hangs his diplomas on the wall. I have no

idea what " low s.o. " means, so I am unable to reply to that seemingly cryptic

reference. Maybe it's a Scando thing I just wouldn't understand. But I *do*

understand that Scando's are fairly " casual " about a *lot* of things, so maybe

it *is* a " cultural difference " . I can confirm that most foreign contries have

fairly lax laws and customs respecting any number of professional activities, so

it's really like comparing apples and oranges.

However, in the U.S., things are different. I just read a book about practice

management for acupuncture practitioners. The author suggested that struggling

practitioners should look at factors like the appearance of their clinic, as

well as their own manner of dress. He suggests that they should ask themselves

if the image they are projecting to the community is one of competence and

success, or one of carelessness and incompetence. I tend to agree with the

author. I know that you desperately hope it is not true, but most members of

the public DO judge you based on your personal appearance, as well as the

appearance and cleanliness of your clinic surroundings. If you don't believe

that people are judged based on their appearance, just ask a few of your " super

obese " patients what their life experience has been. Just ask a middle aged

woman why she is getting cosmetic surgery (ours is such a youth oriented

culture, that people who show their age, especially women, actually

experience difficulty finding and keeping employment, spouses, etc).

Please don't be defensive if you are one of those people who vehemently

believe in your " right " to be casual. Just acknowledge that there might be an

intangible but significant " expense " attached to the image you *choose* to

project. True, the open minded, earth-mother hippy types don't care what you

look like, but ask yourself whether you want to limit your practice to serving a

funky sub-culture, or whether you wish to expand your practice to serve the

needs of the general population. Someone who only treats ten patients per day

will have difficulty supporting a practice in the major city where I live.

Those who are able to support an independent practice see three or four patients

PER HOUR. If not, they’ll have to keep working at Target or the grocery store

in order to support their “acupuncture habit”…unless, of course, they are one of

the few lucky enough to secure a teaching position to supplement their meager

clinic income…

My experience in the upper Midwest (of the U.S.) has been that people expect

their professionals to dress like successful, competent professionals. I

personally believe that the easiest and most *cost-effective* way to convey a

successful image as a health care practitioner is to simply wear a lab coat.

Even if you *aren't* concerned with blood borne pathogens, TB, etc. Even the

" massage therapists " (at least the ones who *aren't* turning tricks) are wearing

lab coats these days.

So many practitioners claim that they *want* to have increased employment

opportunities, but do you walk the walk and talk the talk that will cause

clinics and hospitals to view you as a competent, professional person? Yes, you

will be measured by *their* yardstick, not your own....We've already discussed

the need to understand basic health sciences, in order to interact with western

medical professionals (and to avoid killing patients) but professional

appearance and demeanor counts, as well.

I don't expect anyone else to think what I think or do what I do. However, if

you *want* this profession to survive and grow (here in the United States, where

allopathic medicine " occupies the field " ), you'll need to accept the reality

that you are being judged by western medical standards, whether it be by

hospital/clinic administration, legislators, regulators, Boards of Medical

Practice/licensing authorities, or by members of the public. *Mainstream*

members of the public, not new age earth-mother enlightened hippy types. Bless

em', I wish the world had more. But it doesn't. And *none* of them make the

laws that govern our practice. Just look at your legislators, with their blue

polyester suits and " big newsman comb-over " hair. THEY hold the future of our

profession in their hands, not the nice earthy cool artsy folks down at the

coffee shop. We need to dress for success, no matter how offensive we may find

the concept, personally…

I know that many of you love the funky counter-culture artsy self-image you've

generated for yourselves, but we as a profession are coming under increased

scrutiny from the above-referenced entities. They expect us to look, act, and

practice like real live health care professionals. If we don't, they'll figure

out a way to FORCE us to do so (I can just see it: " in order to protect the

public, acupuncturists must practice under the supervision of an M.D.... " or

some such statutory language...it's already being introduced in some states ...)

When that happens, you'll be wearing lab coats, getting haircuts, shaving,

hanging diplomas on the wall, and generally dancing to *their* tune. With wages

that match those of a licensed practical nurse...and the cost of acupuncture

will be increased, with no tangible benefit having been gained for anyone *but*

the M.D.s...*and* the politicians who were influenced by AMA and/or DC lobby

dollars…

I think that the vast majority of acupuncture practitioners are currently

operating in a system of denial: you just don't understand the power and vast

resources of the western medical complex in the United States. Rates right up

there with the military industrial complex. The legislative and regulatory

influence they have cannot be underestimated. You are no longer flying below

the radar; they are watching us, and deciding what to do. If we don't act

decisively and proactively, they will marginalize and consume us.

Take chiro's for example. In 1945, they were widely considered to be a bunch

of charlatans, quacks, etc.. Did they continue to act and practice in a funky,

out-there fashion? NO! They learned to " ape " the manners of the western

medical profession. They developed effective state and national associations

and lobbying groups. They carved out a situation which preserved their right to

practice independently. We need to do precisely the same thing in order to

survive as an independent health care profession, even if we do find certain

elements of it (like dressing professionally) to be personally distasteful.

Please start to see the writing on the wall, before it is too late. Let's try

to be at least as smart and proactive as the chiro's were. I know we have the

people and resources to do it.

Best Regards,

Rachel H. Peterman, M.S., J.D.

>>Interesting, this lab coat discussion... It must be some kind cultural

thing?! In Denmark only MDs in hospitals and research facilities wear

the lab coats. Almost everyone else: MDs in private practices, CM

practitioners, chiropractors, you name it wear semi formal wear: a

shirt

and a nice pair of pants. Very often we don't even hang our diplomas on

the wall of the clinic. In Denmark someone hanging their diplomas on

the

wall of the entrance of their practice and wearing a lab coat would

usually be conceived to be arrogant (read: insecure/ low s.o. - hiding

behind lab coat, etc...). But that's in Denmark, so....

Thomas

skrev:

> If this is true for your student clinic, it is abominable.

> Conditions at PCOM/San Diego's school clinic are nothing like this. I

> certainly support professional behavior and cleanliness, including

> reasonable standards.

>

> I don't think one has to wear torn dirty clothes in lieu of dressing

> more casually, please. And I pointed out that lab coats or some

> other type of professional 'gear' may be appropriate in different

> settings. I work in a private clinic by myself, seeing ten patients

> a day. A school clinic with many dozens of patients will have

> different needs and criteria.

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January 22, 2006

Rachel

You are obviously a very smart woman and I am sure this will serve you well

in your studies. However you also come across as very angry, arrogant,

condescending and belligerant.....and these are the qualities that best reflect

the sorry state of much of western medicine today. This is what I hear from so

many of my patients who come from an incredibly diverse cross section of

cultural and political persuasions ....conservative, republican, liberal, hippy,

elderly, yuppie, etc...and who , unlike you, seem to feel comfortable and ok

with my braided hair, tevas or moccassins, 501's...or whatever i choose to

wear...because, my friend, it's the care that is what it's all about....Please ,

for your own wellbeing, stop judging and criticising the circumstances in

which you find yourself. has the momentum of a few thousand

years of Chi behind it and it is finding it's place and natural order in North

America, slowly and surely, in spite of the lawyers and the A.M.A. And perhaps

you can organise yourself and your fellow students and provide a fresh coat of

paint to your school clinic walls , take care of that infested " disgusting

" carpet , and sing us a happy tune. Peace Out.

Turiya Hill

-

golden lotus publishing

Chinese Medicine

Saturday, January 21, 2006 12:29 PM

Re: Digest Number 1258