Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 Jude <jude Re: new accreditors .... new org seems more in line with the AAOM " judy saxe Denver Kelly: Judy, as a new member of the board of directors of the AAOM I repsectufully disagree that we are in any way " in alignment: with this new accredidating body. Maybe Will can clarify if I mispeak. As a graduate of Bastyr's program in Acu and Chinese herbs I pursued the " 5 element " in my post graduate studies. I, in no way, see myself as a medical acupuncturist. In fact, many of my patients here in Washington DC have gone to medical acupuncturists and left their practices because they felt like they were not getting Chinese medicine coupled with the fact that they had 3 office visits that included blood work, physical etc before they were ever treated which mostly consisted of ear acupuncture or laser ear acupuncture. But I digress. As a board member I am an advocate of diversity in pracitce which is the argument most " 5 element " use to keep them from taking the National Boards. At the AAOM we suport high standards in education and public access to our efficacious, cost effective medicine. Once the standards are met one is free like in many other fields in this country to focus on whatever aspect of the medicine speaks to your depth and committement to serving the planet. One can do esoteric psychiatry but one still has to go through medical school. All the best, Kelly Kelly D. Welch, M.S., L.Ac., Dipl. Ac & CH 1800 Eye Street NW Suite 503-A Washington DC 20006 202-783-9404 _______________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2003 Report Share Posted March 26, 2003 As a board member I am an advocate of diversity in pracitce which is the argument most "5 element" use to keep them from taking the National Boards. At the AAOM we suport high standards in education and public access to our efficacious, cost effective medicine. Once the standards are met one is free like in many other fields in this country to focus on whatever aspect of the medicine speaks to your depth and commitment to serving the planet. One can do esoteric psychiatry but one still has to go through medical >>>>But at the same time we at aaom have always wanted an alternative accreditation body as well as entry level Dr. We have always tried to push for higher standards Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Hi! Kelly, I totally agree with you. As the only salary paid acupuncturist in Johns Hopkins Health System, I practice 5 element acupuncture with some 8 principle integration. Some acupuncturists at local area disagree with me to practice in Medical setting. However, it's up to me to practice the acupuncture and herbs in the style which will help patients the most. Please send me some information about AAOM. I am in the process to run the position for VP of external affair in Maryland Acupuncture Society. Thank you! Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc Johns Hopkins Community Physician >Kelly: Judy, as a new member of the board of directors of the AAOM I repsectufully disagree that we are in any way " in alignment: with this new accredidating body. Maybe Will can clarify if I mispeak. As a graduate of Bastyr's program in Acu and Chinese herbs I pursued the " 5 element " in my post graduate studies. I, in no way, see myself as a medical acupuncturist. In fact, many of my patients here in Washington DC have gone to medical acupuncturists and left their practices because they felt like they were not getting Chinese medicine coupled with the fact that they had 3 office visits that included blood work, physical etc before they were ever treated which mostly consisted of ear acupuncture or laser ear acupuncture. But I digress. As a board member I am an advocate of diversity in pracitce which is the argument most " 5 element " use to keep them from taking the National Boards. At the AAOM we suport high standards in education and public access to our efficacious, cost effective medicine. Once the standards are met one is free like in many other fields in this country to focus on whatever aspect of the medicine speaks to your depth and committement to serving the planet. One can do esoteric psychiatry but one still has to go through medical school. All the best, Kelly Kelly D. Welch, M.S., L.Ac., Dipl. Ac & CH 1800 Eye Street NW Suite 503-A Washington DC 20006 202-783-9404 _______________ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 I totally agree with you. As the only salary paid acupuncturist inJohns Hopkins Health System, I practice 5 element acupuncture with some8 principle integration. Some acupuncturists at local area disagreewith me to practice in Medical setting. However, it's up to me topractice the acupuncture and herbs in the style which will help patientsthe most.Please send me some information about AAOM.I am in the process to run the position for VP of external affair inMaryland Acupuncture Society.Thank you!Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc>>>>You have to be joking! what can anybody criticize abut working in a Medical setting alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Well, Alon. It was the practitioners who practice pure 5 elements acupuncture. I didn't feel full support from them, because they thought I practice medical acupuncture. I was very disappointed about their reaction, because I was trained to practice 5 elements, and decided to incorporate 8 principle theory. In fact, I turned down an offering from a large Neurology group practice for practice acupuncture and nurse practitioner, because they only want me to treat patients for pain management. I thought that was too narrow scope of practice for acupuncture, herbs and nurse practitioner. I have a specialty in addiction medicine and familiar with auricular detox (NADA certify), HIV/AIDS, and women's health. (My major in Masters of Nursing program in Hopkins was primary care with sub-specialty in HIV/AIDS) I would prefer to practice in primary care setting and helping patients in holistic perspective. That's why I put myself in Internal Medicine clinic. Besides, I was trained to be a nurse and midwifery, before I became an acupuncturist who also practice herbs. Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc Johns Hopkins Community Physician >>>>You have to be joking! what can anybody criticize abut working in a Medical setting alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Alon, My understanding of the five element acupuncture in its most orthodox practice is that it is totally non-symptomatic, non-medical, and designed to treat entirely 'causative factors' that are largely spiritual-emotional, therefore not compatible with medical settings. One is not treating diseases, or even patterns, but the five element causative pattern. On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 08:58 AM, Alon Marcus wrote: > I totally agree with you. As the only salary paid acupuncturist in > Johns Hopkins Health System, I practice 5 element acupuncture with some > 8 principle integration. Some acupuncturists at local area disagree > with me to practice in Medical setting. However, it's up to me to > practice the acupuncture and herbs in the style which will help > patients > the most. > Please send me some information about AAOM. > I am in the process to run the position for VP of external affair in > Maryland Acupuncture Society. > Thank you! > Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc > >>>>You have to be joking! what can anybody criticize abut working in > a Medical setting > alon > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 Ta-Ya, Thank you for speaking on this topic. What you describe is the integrated practice that warms my own heart. The opportunity to acquire what is most genuine in each system sounds best to me. There is no more authentic WM that the one practiced at Johns Hopkins. That you deliver a combined practice of 5-element and 8-principle CM is quite wonderful. You also can grasp CM from the core of your own culture. As an aside, my wife, who grew up near you, always said that the ancient texts and ancient poetry always made more sense when spoken in Taiwanese. Your dialect is more southern, older and more approximates the linguistic sounds of the ancient author's dialect. A friend named Lu Ming, a Daoist priest and Harvard linguist, makes this point as well. Thank you for the courage to carry out your work from your own 1st principles and in the best interests of your patients. In Gratitude, Emmanuel Segmen Hi! Kelly,I totally agree with you. As the only salary paid acupuncturist in Johns Hopkins Health System, I practice 5 element acupuncture with some 8 principle integration. Some acupuncturists at local area disagree with me to practice in Medical setting. However, it's up to me to practice the acupuncture and herbs in the style which will help patients the most. Please send me some information about AAOM. I am in the process to run the position for VP of external affair in Maryland Acupuncture Society.Thank you!Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAcJohns Hopkins Community Physician Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 , " " wrote: > My understanding of the five element acupuncture in its most orthodox practice is that it is totally non-symptomatic, non- medical, and designed to treat entirely 'causative factors' that are largely spiritual-emotional, therefore not compatible with medical settings. One is not treating diseases, or even patterns, but the five element causative pattern. >>> Z'ev: While what you say is accurate of the Worsley-style, it does not represent 5-Elements per se. I'm not sure why they trade- marked " Classical 5-Elements " when they don't seem to incorporate many ideas from the classical literature---for example, chapters 66- 74 in the Suwen. But the Dong Han system uses 5-Elements extensively to describe diseases, pathogensis, symptoms, and Western medical anatomical processes. Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2003 Report Share Posted March 27, 2003 I, of course, agree with you, Jim. This used to be called 'traditional acupuncture', I guess to distinguish it from 'eight principle' practice (which is 'non-traditional'!!??). I (and others) call it Worsley acupuncture, and the style incorporates a few five element aspects, as you note without the classical references, and homeopathic medicine ( " Hering's Law of Cure " ). There are many styles of five phase-based medicine, both herbal and acupuncture, that have developed from the classical literature. There are good things about Worsley acupuncture, but I wish they would keep their sources straight. A good book on the history of this style is " In the Footsteps of the Yellow Emperor " by Peter Eckman. On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 03:07 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > , " " wrote: >> My understanding of the five element acupuncture in its most > orthodox practice is that it is totally non-symptomatic, non- > medical, and designed to treat entirely 'causative factors' that are > largely spiritual-emotional, therefore not compatible with medical > settings. One is not treating diseases, or even patterns, but the > five element causative pattern. >>> > > > Z'ev: > > While what you say is accurate of the Worsley-style, it does not > represent 5-Elements per se. I'm not sure why they trade- > marked " Classical 5-Elements " when they don't seem to incorporate > many ideas from the classical literature---for example, chapters 66- > 74 in the Suwen. > > But the Dong Han system uses 5-Elements extensively to describe > diseases, pathogensis, symptoms, and Western medical anatomical > processes. > > > Jim Ramholz > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 I would prefer to practice in primary caresetting and helping patients in holistic perspective. That's why I putmyself in Internal Medicine clinic. Besides, I was trained to be a nurseand midwifery, before I became an acupuncturist who also practiceherbs.>>>So the criticism came from WM Dr. not TCM community Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 My understanding of the five element acupuncture in its most orthodox practice is that it is totally non-symptomatic, non-medical, and designed to treat entirely 'causative factors' that are largely spiritual-emotional, therefore not compatible with medical settings. One is not treating diseases, or even patterns, but the five element causative pattern. >>>>I miss understood him. I thought he was saying that the TCM community criticized him Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Hi! Z'ev, I read Eckman's book. I don't think it's an accurate book to learn about the history of , particularly I am not sure it related to Worsley acupuncture directly. If you can read in Chinese, or have the chance to study Chinese history and mystical tales, you will agree with my perspective of looking at Eckman's book. His book was a require reading in my acupuncture school training. I wasn't too happy about reading that book, because I had Chinese history study up to College level in Taiwan. I ended up correct the teacher who require us to read Eckman's book. Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc Johns Hopkins Community Physician There are good things about Worsley acupuncture, but I wish they would keep their sources straight. A good book on the history of this style is " In the Footsteps of the Yellow Emperor " by Peter Eckman. On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 03:07 PM, James Ramholz wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 , Ta-Ya Lee wrote: I wasn't too happy about reading that book, because I had > Chinese history study up to College level in Taiwan. I ended up correct the teacher who require us to read Eckman's book. >>> Ta-Ya Lee: Can you give us some of the details as to why you think the book is unreliable, especially in regards to Worsley? Jim Ramholz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Criticism came from 5 element acupuncturists, not from WM Dr. In fact, WM Doc refer patients to me. Ta-Ya >>> alonmarcus 03/28/03 12:45PM >>> I would prefer to practice in primary care setting and helping patients in holistic perspective. That's why I put myself in Internal Medicine clinic. Besides, I was trained to be a nurse and midwifery, before I became an acupuncturist who also practice herbs. >>>So the criticism came from WM Dr. not TCM community Alon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Dear Ta ya, I've studied autobiographies of famous Chinese physicians with my former tutor, so I know that some of Eckman's book isn't accurate. But I'm referring to his section on Worsley's studies with his acupuncture teacher in Taiwan, his incorporation of Hering's Law of Cure, and Ohsawa's teaching of macrobiotics and acupuncture in Paris. None of these are in Chinese books, as far as I know. I agree that it isn't really a history of Chinese medicine book. Perhaps you can translate one, it is a necessity, especially since we need Chinese medical history courses with accurate information. Unschuld's series, " Medicine in China " is a good one. On Friday, March 28, 2003, at 10:05 AM, Ta-Ya Lee wrote: > Hi! Z'ev, > I read Eckman's book. I don't think it's an accurate book to learn > about the history of , particularly I am not sure it > related to Worsley acupuncture directly. > If you can read in Chinese, or have the chance to study Chinese history > and mystical tales, you will agree with my perspective of looking at > Eckman's book. His book was a require reading in my acupuncture school > training. I wasn't too happy about reading that book, because I had > Chinese history study up to College level in Taiwan. I ended up > correct > the teacher who require us to read Eckman's book. > Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc > Johns Hopkins Community Physician > > > There are good things about Worsley acupuncture, but I wish they would > > keep their sources straight. A good book on the history of this style > > is " In the Footsteps of the Yellow Emperor " by Peter Eckman. > > > On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 03:07 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2003 Report Share Posted March 28, 2003 Hi! Z'ev, Jim, I believe there is no specific Chinese language documentation about Worsley's studies with his teacher in Taiwan, unless there was a report on Taiwanese newspaper. Unfortunately, I won't have the access to look on the Internet to see if there is archive of old newspaper. One of my school mate's father was in Eckman's book. He was one of the teachers who met Worsley in Taiwan. My school mate was very surprised to see his father was in the picture with Worsley, because he didn't know anything about it. Thus, I can only say that Eckman's book is not a good resource to learn about history. There is a need to have better translation from native speakers. I am not a scholar, but I have the advantage of knowing the language and able to access resources. Maybe you guys can give me some ideas about what type of books to translate. Ta-Ya >>> zrosenbe 03/28/03 02:45PM >>> Dear Ta ya, I've studied autobiographies of famous Chinese physicians with my former tutor, so I know that some of Eckman's book isn't accurate. But I'm referring to his section on Worsley's studies with his acupuncture teacher in Taiwan, his incorporation of Hering's Law of Cure, and Ohsawa's teaching of macrobiotics and acupuncture in Paris. None of these are in Chinese books, as far as I know. I agree that it isn't really a history of Chinese medicine book. Perhaps you can translate one, it is a necessity, especially since we need Chinese medical history courses with accurate information. Unschuld's series, " Medicine in China " is a good one. On Friday, March 28, 2003, at 10:05 AM, Ta-Ya Lee wrote: > Hi! Z'ev, > I read Eckman's book. I don't think it's an accurate book to learn > about the history of , particularly I am not sure it > related to Worsley acupuncture directly. > If you can read in Chinese, or have the chance to study Chinese history > and mystical tales, you will agree with my perspective of looking at > Eckman's book. His book was a require reading in my acupuncture school > training. I wasn't too happy about reading that book, because I had > Chinese history study up to College level in Taiwan. I ended up > correct > the teacher who require us to read Eckman's book. > Ta-Ya Lee, CRNP, LAc > Johns Hopkins Community Physician > > > There are good things about Worsley acupuncture, but I wish they would > > keep their sources straight. A good book on the history of this style > > is " In the Footsteps of the Yellow Emperor " by Peter Eckman. > > > On Thursday, March 27, 2003, at 03:07 PM, James Ramholz wrote: > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted February 1, 2005 Report Share Posted February 1, 2005 >Spirituality is nothing but flowering of four things in you and they are physical health, mental health, >healthy inter-human relationships and the capacity to respond spontaneously in all aspects of life >(what is called responsibility). If these four things are achieved, you become a spiritual person. It is interesting to me how many spiritual figures throughout history have had to deal with illness and pain. In many shamanic traditions it is assumed one must first undergo such a crisis before one knows how to heal, and healing does not necessarily mean overcoming an obstacle but perhaps is found in transcending the sense of limitation. Think of people with terminal disease who awaken consciousness; one of the most aware people I know is blind and crippled. Illness can be such a teacher! An enlightened mind is not limited by the flesh. I'd even go further and say that we are all spiritual people, wherever we are an whatever our current state or condition. Higher consciousness is greater self-awareness and insight into cosmic or divine energy, but we all are potential buds on a blossoming tree. I'm sorry if this is just semantics, and I agree that awakening has manifestation, but I don't see it as a checklist of criteria to be achieved. Jeff --- avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0505-0, 01/31/2005 Tested on: 2/1/2005 1:44:46 PM avast! is copyright © 2000-2003 ALWIL Software. http://www.avast.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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