Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 In all seriousness Isabelle is very dangerous and on a path of destruction at this moment a category five storm...........I feel it is time that we come together and spin this storm out to sea I have learned one thing about the weather - is that the weather has a personality of its own When you pray - be sure to send it away into cold waters.................ask that God the Lord of the Weather take its power and weaken it that it not touch anyone Ask God The Lord of the weather to cause it to curve right out into sea and not touch a single person PEOPLE this is a dangerous storm, all serious here, and I would suggest you get your maps out and lay hands Lets work this storm away from the usa and out to sea PLease lets join hands and do this for the next 48 hours thank you sheyla Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help with Isabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of this storm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the first place. Forgive my agnosticism, but I fail to see the point in praying to a deity, to protect a child from the cancer that is threatening to destroy her, if this deity could have prevented that child from developing the cancer in the first place. JP - " whiteligtning2000 " <whiteligtning2000 Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:40 PM Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY In all seriousness Isabelle is very dangerous and on a path of destruction at this moment a category five storm...........I feel it is time that we come together and spin this storm out to sea I have learned one thing about the weather - is that the weather has a personality of its own When you pray - be sure to send it away into cold waters.................ask that God the Lord of the Weather take its power and weaken it that it not touch anyone Ask God The Lord of the weather to cause it to curve right out into sea and not touch a single person PEOPLE this is a dangerous storm, all serious here, and I would suggest you get your maps out and lay hands Lets work this storm away from the usa and out to sea PLease lets join hands and do this for the next 48 hours thank you sheyla «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUS SAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS, GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC. $11.95 For Single or $19.95 For an entire household per month! Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121 «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ » § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! § Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses. **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Is a statement of being, or not being for that matter, a religious statement? One’s position as to religion is stated by averring pro or con. Agnosticism, as well as atheism, as well as humanism are all statements of religion, even as the request for prayer would be a statement about a religion. One bows the knee to a god, while the others bow the knee to something, often anything, they define as not god. Where does one find their certainty at, and indeed, what is certainty. Anybody’s world and life view starts off with unprovable presuppositions that fall into the realm of faith. From the point of view of logic, we can all make a mockery of somebody else’s because of the inherent circular reasoning. Yet, presuppositions are the foundation of mathematics, and the rest of science. Presuppositions are the foundation of the irrational as well, at least as far as the irrational is stated. Religion, or one’s particular individualized faith statements, are a part of all of life as they are the basis of the individual’s belief about, ah, everything. I’ve always had a hard time about keeping “religion” off the board here at health and healing. I’ve pretty much done so. I really wish that others would do so as well, or, does keeping “religion” off the board only relate to unwanted religions? In which case, we need a statement about which ones are unwanted. And, “white lightening”, the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. Ed John Polifronio [counterpnt] Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:01 PM To: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help with Isabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of this storm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the first place. Forgive my agnosticism, but I fail to see the point in praying to a deity, to protect a child from the cancer that is threatening to destroy her, if this deity could have prevented that child from developing the cancer in the first place. JP - " whiteligtning2000 " <whiteligtning2000 Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:40 PM Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY In all seriousness Isabelle is very dangerous and on a path of destruction at this moment a category five storm...........I feel it is time that we come together and spin this storm out to sea I have learned one thing about the weather - is that the weather has a personality of its own When you pray - be sure to send it away into cold waters.................ask that God the Lord of the Weather take its power and weaken it that it not touch anyone Ask God The Lord of the weather to cause it to curve right out into sea and not touch a single person PEOPLE this is a dangerous storm, all serious here, and I would suggest you get your maps out and lay hands Lets work this storm away from the usa and out to sea PLease lets join hands and do this for the next 48 hours thank you sheyla «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUS SAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS, GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC. $11.95 For Single or $19.95 For an entire household per month! Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121 «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ » § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! § Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses. **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I understand, and agree with much that you've said here. But two points. 1) I wasn't engaging in mockery. 2) The central question I asked remains unanswered: i.e., what sense is there in appealing to a god for help with disasters, diseases, etc., if this deity could have prevented them in the first place? Why would god allow a disaster to befall us in the first place; it's not as if this god doesn't know the suffering it would cause us. - Ed Siceloff Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:01 PM RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY Is a statement of being, or not being for that matter, a religious statement? One’s position as to religion is stated by averring pro or con. Agnosticism, as well as atheism, as well as humanism are all statements of religion, even as the request for prayer would be a statement about a religion. One bows the knee to a god, while the others bow the knee to something, often anything, they define as not god. Where does one find their certainty at, and indeed, what is certainty. Anybody’s world and life view starts off with unprovable presuppositions that fall into the realm of faith. From the point of view of logic, we can all make a mockery of somebody else’s because of the inherent circular reasoning. Yet, presuppositions are the foundation of mathematics, and the rest of science. Presuppositions are the foundation of the irrational as well, at least as far as the irrational is stated. Religion, or one’s particular individualized faith statements, are a part of all of life as they are the basis of the individual’s belief about, ah, everything. I’ve always had a hard time about keeping “religion” off the board here at health and healing. I’ve pretty much done so. I really wish that others would do so as well, or, does keeping “religion” off the board only relate to unwanted religions? In which case, we need a statement about which ones are unwanted. And, “white lightening”, the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. Ed John Polifronio [counterpnt] Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:01 PM Subject: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help withIsabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of thisstorm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the firstplace.Forgive my agnosticism, but I fail to see the point in praying to a deity,to protect a child from the cancer that is threatening to destroy her, ifthis deity could have prevented that child from developing the cancer in thefirst place.JP- "whiteligtning2000" <whiteligtning2000Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:40 PM Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAYIn all seriousness Isabelle is very dangerous and on a path ofdestruction at this moment a category five storm...........I feel itis time that we come together and spin this storm out to seaI have learned one thing about the weather - is that the weather hasa personality of its ownWhen you pray - be sure to send it away into coldwaters.................ask that God the Lord of the Weather take itspower and weaken it that it not touch anyoneAsk God The Lord of the weather to cause it to curve right out intosea and not touch a single personPEOPLE this is a dangerous storm, all serious here, and I wouldsuggest you get your maps out and lay handsLets work this storm away from the usa and out to seaPLease lets join hands and do this for the next 48 hoursthank yousheyla«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUSSAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS,GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC.$11.95 For Single or$19.95 For an entire household per month!Immediate Coverage * No Waiting PeriodPre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefitshttp://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/Email: MEM121«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be newsrelated, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with aqualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment,especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use withoutprofit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receivingthe included information for non-profit research and educational purposesonly. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Sorry John, perhaps “mockery” was a wee bit of a poor choice of words. Intended was the thought of pointing out things that end up being logically ridiculous about any particular world and life view, especially if taken to extremes, from a position that starts off with presuppositions from outside of that world and life view. As to the central question of “what sense is there in appealing to a god for help with disasters…..”, I would say from my own perspective that one prays for His (a god) will to be done. For myself, I don’t know what all He is doing. I know merely what I’ve been told. I know that He is in control, but that He is NOT in control for my sake, but for His sake. That is the nature of all “gods” from a human perspective. One prays because although His will shall be done, and although He knows the thoughts of our hearts, He wants us to ask of Him, and to talk to Him. I don’t want to answer you fully here (not that I could answer you fully necessarily) as I don’t want to make a whole lot of people uncomfortable. I have a definite perspective on this that would lead straightway to a discussion of the problem of evil. On the other hand, to an agnostic (and recognizing that you might be an agnostic to some degree or another, or you might have expressed your agnosticism merely in relation to the concept of praying a storm away), I would not be able to answer to your own presuppositions by which you would consider my logical working out from my own presuppositions. But, I’d like to discuss, just not here. If you would enjoy that as well, then say so, but lets take it private. I like this board and get a lot of information from it. So, I do not want to offend a bunch of people and end up getting kicked off of it by a discussion of “religion.” But, if not, then to answer the question that you are asking, read the book of Job in the Old Testament of the Bible. Ed John Polifronio [counterpnt] Sunday, September 14, 2003 12:20 AM To: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I understand, and agree with much that you've said here. But two points. 1) I wasn't engaging in mockery. 2) The central question I asked remains unanswered: i.e., what sense is there in appealing to a god for help with disasters, diseases, etc., if this deity could have prevented them in the first place? Why would god allow a disaster to befall us in the first place; it's not as if this god doesn't know the suffering it would cause us. - Ed Siceloff Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:01 PM RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY Is a statement of being, or not being for that matter, a religious statement? One’s position as to religion is stated by averring pro or con. Agnosticism, as well as atheism, as well as humanism are all statements of religion, even as the request for prayer would be a statement about a religion. One bows the knee to a god, while the others bow the knee to something, often anything, they define as not god. Where does one find their certainty at, and indeed, what is certainty. Anybody’s world and life view starts off with unprovable presuppositions that fall into the realm of faith. From the point of view of logic, we can all make a mockery of somebody else’s because of the inherent circular reasoning. Yet, presuppositions are the foundation of mathematics, and the rest of science. Presuppositions are the foundation of the irrational as well, at least as far as the irrational is stated. Religion, or one’s particular individualized faith statements, are a part of all of life as they are the basis of the individual’s belief about, ah, everything. I’ve always had a hard time about keeping “religion” off the board here at health and healing. I’ve pretty much done so. I really wish that others would do so as well, or, does keeping “religion” off the board only relate to unwanted religions? In which case, we need a statement about which ones are unwanted. And, “white lightening”, the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. Ed John Polifronio [counterpnt] Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:01 PM To: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help with Isabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of this storm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the first place. Forgive my agnosticism, but I fail to see the point in praying to a deity, to protect a child from the cancer that is threatening to destroy her, if this deity could have prevented that child from developing the cancer in the first place. JP - " whiteligtning2000 " <whiteligtning2000 Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:40 PM Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY In all seriousness Isabelle is very dangerous and on a path of destruction at this moment a category five storm...........I feel it is time that we come together and spin this storm out to sea I have learned one thing about the weather - is that the weather has a personality of its own When you pray - be sure to send it away into cold waters.................ask that God the Lord of the Weather take its power and weaken it that it not touch anyone Ask God The Lord of the weather to cause it to curve right out into sea and not touch a single person PEOPLE this is a dangerous storm, all serious here, and I would suggest you get your maps out and lay hands Lets work this storm away from the usa and out to sea PLease lets join hands and do this for the next 48 hours thank you sheyla «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUS SAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS, GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC. $11.95 For Single or $19.95 For an entire household per month! Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121 «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ » § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! § Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses. **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Maybe the Deity wants a relationship with His children. Do you have kids? If so, do you always give them what they want or need before they ask? Or do you let them develop a relationship with you and allow them to make choices? Do you force your beliefs on them because that is best, or do you allow them to make mistakes and then later help them out of them? God allows things to happen to get our attention. A good share of what happens to us us our own fault. He told us how to prevent cancer. Why should we expect Him to keep cancer away when we didn't follow His dietary laws? It is like a parent bailing a child out everytime the child does something wrong. All that does is create a spoiled, self-centered person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 Re: And, “white lightening”, the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. Good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 An important point may be that the act of prayer is more about the power of our collective consciousness to affect changes in our physical world than it is about asking for the help of a deity. Focused intention seems to be very potent. Terry John Polifronio [counterpnt] Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:20 PM To: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I understand, and agree with much that you've said here. But two points. 1) I wasn't engaging in mockery. 2) The central question I asked remains unanswered: i.e., what sense is there in appealing to a god for help with disasters, diseases, etc., if this deity could have prevented them in the first place? Why would god allow a disaster to befall us in the first place; it's not as if this god doesn't know the suffering it would cause us. - Ed Siceloff Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:01 PM RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY Is a statement of being, or not being for that matter, a religious statement? One’s position as to religion is stated by averring pro or con. Agnosticism, as well as atheism, as well as humanism are all statements of religion, even as the request for prayer would be a statement about a religion. One bows the knee to a god, while the others bow the knee to something, often anything, they define as not god. Where does one find their certainty at, and indeed, what is certainty. Anybody’s world and life view starts off with unprovable presuppositions that fall into the realm of faith. From the point of view of logic, we can all make a mockery of somebody else’s because of the inherent circular reasoning. Yet, presuppositions are the foundation of mathematics, and the rest of science. Presuppositions are the foundation of the irrational as well, at least as far as the irrational is stated. Religion, or one’s particular individualized faith statements, are a part of all of life as they are the basis of the individual’s belief about, ah, everything. I’ve always had a hard time about keeping “religion” off the board here at health and healing. I’ve pretty much done so. I really wish that others would do so as well, or, does keeping “religion” off the board only relate to unwanted religions? In which case, we need a statement about which ones are unwanted. And, “white lightening”, the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 I shouldn't have sent my remarks in the first place. Religion is far less a matter of the mind than of the heart. I have no doubt that prayer has a healing effect; and I speak as an atheist/agnostic. Revealing to oneself in silent prayer and meditation, ones feelings openly and without denial is a positive force for health. I do it myself. But, fully realizing how volatile are religious issues, I feel obliged to point out, that "relying" on religious dogma and beliefs in Supreme Beings, etc., to help us with our problems, is a double edged sword. I say, attend to the mundane but reliable and practical measures, such as good diet, exercise, stress reduction, adequate rest, the intelligent and research-based use of supplements, professional help when needed, etc., and don't, as millions of people do, think you can get away with ignoring these measures by simply praying your problems away. JP - Petty Sunday, September 14, 2003 8:19 AM RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY An important point may be that the act of prayer is more about the power of our collective consciousness to affect changes in our physical world than it is about asking for the help of a deity. Focused intention seems to be very potent. Terry John Polifronio [counterpnt] Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:20 PM Subject: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I understand, and agree with much that you've said here. But two points. 1) I wasn't engaging in mockery. 2) The central question I asked remains unanswered: i.e., what sense is there in appealing to a god for help with disasters, diseases, etc., if this deity could have prevented them in the first place? Why would god allow a disaster to befall us in the first place; it's not as if this god doesn't know the suffering it would cause us. - Ed Siceloff Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:01 PM RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY Is a statement of being, or not being for that matter, a religious statement? One’s position as to religion is stated by averring pro or con. Agnosticism, as well as atheism, as well as humanism are all statements of religion, even as the request for prayer would be a statement about a religion. One bows the knee to a god, while the others bow the knee to something, often anything, they define as not god. Where does one find their certainty at, and indeed, what is certainty. Anybody’s world and life view starts off with unprovable presuppositions that fall into the realm of faith. From the point of view of logic, we can all make a mockery of somebody else’s because of the inherent circular reasoning. Yet, presuppositions are the foundation of mathematics, and the rest of science. Presuppositions are the foundation of the irrational as well, at least as far as the irrational is stated. Religion, or one’s particular individualized faith statements, are a part of all of life as they are the basis of the individual’s belief about, ah, everything. I’ve always had a hard time about keeping “religion” off the board here at health and healing. I’ve pretty much done so. I really wish that others would do so as well, or, does keeping “religion” off the board only relate to unwanted religions? In which case, we need a statement about which ones are unwanted. And, “white lightening”, the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. Ed «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUSSAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS,GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC.$11.95 For Single or$19.95 For an entire household per month!Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 With ya on these comments John. Ed John Polifronio [counterpnt] Sunday, September 14, 2003 6:08 PM To: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I shouldn't have sent my remarks in the first place. Religion is far less a matter of the mind than of the heart. I have no doubt that prayer has a healing effect; and I speak as an atheist/agnostic. Revealing to oneself in silent prayer and meditation, ones feelings openly and without denial is a positive force for health. I do it myself. But, fully realizing how volatile are religious issues, I feel obliged to point out, that " relying " on religious dogma and beliefs in Supreme Beings, etc., to help us with our problems, is a double edged sword. I say, attend to the mundane but reliable and practical measures, such as good diet, exercise, stress reduction, adequate rest, the intelligent and research-based use of supplements, professional help when needed, etc., and don't, as millions of people do, think you can get away with ignoring these measures by simply praying your problems away. JP - Petty Sunday, September 14, 2003 8:19 AM RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY An important point may be that the act of prayer is more about the power of our collective consciousness to affect changes in our physical world than it is about asking for the help of a deity. Focused intention seems to be very potent. Terry John Polifronio [counterpnt] Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:20 PM To: Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I understand, and agree with much that you've said here. But two points. 1) I wasn't engaging in mockery. 2) The central question I asked remains unanswered: i.e., what sense is there in appealing to a god for help with disasters, diseases, etc., if this deity could have prevented them in the first place? Why would god allow a disaster to befall us in the first place; it's not as if this god doesn't know the suffering it would cause us. - Ed Siceloff Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:01 PM RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY Is a statement of being, or not being for that matter, a religious statement? One’s position as to religion is stated by averring pro or con. Agnosticism, as well as atheism, as well as humanism are all statements of religion, even as the request for prayer would be a statement about a religion. One bows the knee to a god, while the others bow the knee to something, often anything, they define as not god. Where does one find their certainty at, and indeed, what is certainty. Anybody’s world and life view starts off with unprovable presuppositions that fall into the realm of faith. From the point of view of logic, we can all make a mockery of somebody else’s because of the inherent circular reasoning. Yet, presuppositions are the foundation of mathematics, and the rest of science. Presuppositions are the foundation of the irrational as well, at least as far as the irrational is stated. Religion, or one’s particular individualized faith statements, are a part of all of life as they are the basis of the individual’s belief about, ah, everything. I’ve always had a hard time about keeping “religion” off the board here at health and healing. I’ve pretty much done so. I really wish that others would do so as well, or, does keeping “religion” off the board only relate to unwanted religions? In which case, we need a statement about which ones are unwanted. And, “white lightening”, the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. Ed «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUS SAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS, GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC. $11.95 For Single or $19.95 For an entire household per month! Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121 «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤» § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! § Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses. **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUS SAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS, GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC. $11.95 For Single or $19.95 For an entire household per month! Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121 «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤» § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! § Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses. **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 The Biblical God of Creation created this world for us and is not a dictator. He only acts when invited. Donna - John Polifronio Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:01 PM Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help withIsabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of thisstorm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the firstplace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 15, 2003 Report Share Posted September 15, 2003 If God created the world, He created Isabelle. If God waits until we "invite" Him to take pity on us, why do you suppose that every day, throughout the world, 40,000 children die of starvation? God may not be a dictator, but he's omnipotent (he has the infinite power to prevent human suffering) and God is Good (I take it for granted that He would desire to prevent the suffering of children). Are you saying that not one of the parents of all those children invited God to save their starving children? Atheists and Agnostics are minorities that are treated as outcasts. We're not supposed to have the nerve to argue against "believers." But the reality is, that the questions regarding the existence of a Supreme Being, and the philosophical problems that such a belief creates for the human mind, are not as easy to dismiss as you might think. I'm an agnostic because I "don't know" the final answers to the big questions; and if I though I knew the answers, I wouldn't inflict them on the people around me. But on the views I've heard so far from all the religions, I'm an atheist. What relevance does all this have to "Health and Healing?" I mentioned in an earlier post, the great danger there is for health and even survival, when people imagine that they can pray their problems away. If God allowed your cancer or heart disease to develop, why would He then do something to stop these dreadful diseases, without you or your healers having to make an effort in the process? Religious beliefs we've all heard of, have driven parents to refuse medical assistance for children facing potentially fatal diseases, because, they insist, God will heal their children; most of these children die. When they die, their parents don't argue that God doesn't intrude on our lives, until he's "invited," they argue that the death of their child is "God's will." JP - CountryGirl Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:17 PM Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY The Biblical God of Creation created this world for us and is not a dictator. He only acts when invited. Donna - John Polifronio Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:01 PM Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help withIsabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of thisstorm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the firstplace.«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUSSAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS,GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC.$11.95 For Single or$19.95 For an entire household per month!Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 16, 2003 Report Share Posted September 16, 2003 Hi JP. This is my last reply on this as it is off topic for this list. My belief system comes from the Bible, which is historically prestinely accurate. Your belief system comes from what you think you have figured out about life. We are not likely to ever make any progress on this subject. But addressing your questions. The Bible says that the God of creation is not the God of this world. The adversary is. And he is the prince of darkness who is able to present himself as an angel of light. He is the source of death in this world. God created our world to last forever. When the original people chose to believe the prince of darkness who skillfully lied to them, they chose a cycle of death for themselves and this planet. Only for a season. God is not the author is sickness and those who believe that cancer or tornadoes come from his hand are misinformed. He does heal people supernaturally as a result of prayer, on occassion. He also leads people to doctors for answers or to lists etc. People who believe that to help themselves is to interfere with God are in bondage. They mean well, they are just wrong. Jesus healed all who came to him when he was on the earth and since he is the same, yesterday, today and forever, it is not difficult to know what His will is. He desire people to be healthy. That doesn't mean that people make the connection with Him and get what they are seeking. Lots of reasons for that. As far as the starving masses go. He expects us to feed them. Jesus said, as much as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to me. We are to feed the hungry and care for the sick. He created this world for us and gave us free will and He set legal boundaries that even He cannot cross without making us into God puppets. The ills of the world are caused by people and it is our job to fix the ills of the world. A time is coming when Christ will return and the world will be a different place. God's influence will heal and restore. But, according to the Bible, which up to this point has been prestinely accurate prophetically, it is going to get much worse before the Christ returns. It says the because the inhabitants of the earth have broken the covenant and polluted the world, that fish and birds dissappear and wild animals dissapear and the sun grows hotter than the heat of seven suns and many people are burned up. It also says that if Christ did not return and intervene there would be no one surviving. But, when he does return he will establish 1000 years of peace on this earth. It also says this earth will wear out like an old garment and be destroyed and a new heaven and earth will be created that will endure forever. And earth on which there is no death, or darkness or disease. In the meantime, we are either part of the solution or we are part of the problem. I am doing all I know to be part of the solution. Feeding children and sharing what light I have. Everything in love Donna http://www.excellentthings.com p.s. As I said above, I will not be responding to any more posts on this, as it is off topic for this list. - John Polifronio Monday, September 15, 2003 1:57 PM Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY If God created the world, He created Isabelle. If God waits until we "invite" Him to take pity on us, why do you suppose that every day, throughout the world, 40,000 children die of starvation? God may not be a dictator, but he's omnipotent (he has the infinite power to prevent human suffering) and God is Good (I take it for granted that He would desire to prevent the suffering of children). Are you saying that not one of the parents of all those children invited God to save their starving children? Atheists and Agnostics are minorities that are treated as outcasts. We're not supposed to have the nerve to argue against "believers." But the reality is, that the questions regarding the existence of a Supreme Being, and the philosophical problems that such a belief creates for the human mind, are not as easy to dismiss as you might think. I'm an agnostic because I "don't know" the final answers to the big questions; and if I though I knew the answers, I wouldn't inflict them on the people around me. But on the views I've heard so far from all the religions, I'm an atheist. What relevance does all this have to "Health and Healing?" I mentioned in an earlier post, the great danger there is for health and even survival, when people imagine that they can pray their problems away. If God allowed your cancer or heart disease to develop, why would He then do something to stop these dreadful diseases, without you or your healers having to make an effort in the process? Religious beliefs we've all heard of, have driven parents to refuse medical assistance for children facing potentially fatal diseases, because, they insist, God will heal their children; most of these children die. When they die, their parents don't argue that God doesn't intrude on our lives, until he's "invited," they argue that the death of their child is "God's will." JP - CountryGirl Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:17 PM Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY The Biblical God of Creation created this world for us and is not a dictator. He only acts when invited. Donna - John Polifronio Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:01 PM Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help withIsabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of thisstorm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the firstplace.«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUSSAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS,GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC.$11.95 For Single or$19.95 For an entire household per month!Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ Email: MEM121«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§ - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! §Subscribe:......... - To :.... - Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses.**COPYRIGHT NOTICE**In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107,any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Oh yes, the times are exciting. To see what was said, come to pass. Good post! Rails , " CountryGirl " <ruthful@p...> wrote: > Hi JP. This is my last reply on this as it is off topic for this list. > > My belief system comes from the Bible, which is historically prestinely accurate. Your belief system comes from what you think you have figured out about life. We are not likely to ever make any progress on this subject. > > But addressing your questions. The Bible says that the God of creation is not the God of this world. The adversary is. And he is the prince of darkness who is able to present himself as an angel of light. He is the source of death in this world. God created our world to last forever. When the original people chose to believe the prince of darkness who skillfully lied to them, they chose a cycle of death for themselves and this planet. Only for a season. > > God is not the author is sickness and those who believe that cancer or tornadoes come from his hand are misinformed. > > He does heal people supernaturally as a result of prayer, on occassion. He also leads people to doctors for answers or to lists etc. People who believe that to help themselves is to interfere with God are in bondage. They mean well, they are just wrong. > > Jesus healed all who came to him when he was on the earth and since he is the same, yesterday, today and forever, it is not difficult to know what His will is. He desire people to be healthy. That doesn't mean that people make the connection with Him and get what they are seeking. Lots of reasons for that. > > As far as the starving masses go. He expects us to feed them. Jesus said, as much as you have done it to the least of these my brethren, you have done it to me. We are to feed the hungry and care for the sick. He created this world for us and gave us free will and He set legal boundaries that even He cannot cross without making us into God puppets. The ills of the world are caused by people and it is our job to fix the ills of the world. > > A time is coming when Christ will return and the world will be a different place. God's influence will heal and restore. But, according to the Bible, which up to this point has been prestinely accurate prophetically, it is going to get much worse before the Christ returns. > > It says the because the inhabitants of the earth have broken the covenant and polluted the world, that fish and birds dissappear and wild animals dissapear and the sun grows hotter than the heat of seven suns and many people are burned up. It also says that if Christ did not return and intervene there would be no one surviving. But, when he does return he will establish 1000 years of peace on this earth. It also says this earth will wear out like an old garment and be destroyed and a new heaven and earth will be created that will endure forever. And earth on which there is no death, or darkness or disease. > > In the meantime, we are either part of the solution or we are part of the problem. I am doing all I know to be part of the solution. Feeding children and sharing what light I have. > > Everything in love > Donna > http://www.excellentthings.com > > p.s. As I said above, I will not be responding to any more posts on this, as it is off topic for this list. > > > - > John Polifronio > > Monday, September 15, 2003 1:57 PM > Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY > > > If God created the world, He created Isabelle. > > If God waits until we " invite " Him to take pity on us, why do you suppose that every day, throughout the world, 40,000 children die of starvation? God may not be a dictator, but he's omnipotent (he has the infinite power to prevent human suffering) and God is Good (I take it for granted that He would desire to prevent the suffering of children). Are you saying that not one of the parents of all those children invited God to save their starving children? > > Atheists and Agnostics are minorities that are treated as outcasts. We're not supposed to have the nerve to argue against " believers. " But the reality is, that the questions regarding the existence of a Supreme Being, and the philosophical problems that such a belief creates for the human mind, are not as easy to dismiss as you might think. I'm an agnostic because I " don't know " the final answers to the big questions; and if I though I knew the answers, I wouldn't inflict them on the people around me. But on the views I've heard so far from all the religions, I'm an atheist. > > What relevance does all this have to " Health and Healing? " I mentioned in an earlier post, the great danger there is for health and even survival, when people imagine that they can pray their problems away. If God allowed your cancer or heart disease to develop, why would He then do something to stop these dreadful diseases, without you or your healers having to make an effort in the process? Religious beliefs we've all heard of, have driven parents to refuse medical assistance for children facing potentially fatal diseases, because, they insist, God will heal their children; most of these children die. When they die, their parents don't argue that God doesn't intrude on our lives, until he's " invited, " they argue that the death of their child is " God's will. " > > JP > > > - > CountryGirl > > Sunday, September 14, 2003 11:17 PM > Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY > > > The Biblical God of Creation created this world for us and is not a dictator. He only acts when invited. > > Donna > > > > - > John Polifronio > > Saturday, September 13, 2003 9:01 PM > Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY > > > I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help with > Isabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of this > storm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the first > place. > > > > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤ » > > NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUS > SAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS, > GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC. > $11.95 For Single or > $19.95 For an entire household per month! > Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period > Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits > > http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ > > Email: MEM121@S... > > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤ »¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤» > > § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! § > > Subscribe:......... - > To :.... - > > Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses. > **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** > In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, > any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 4, 2003 Report Share Posted October 4, 2003 This email was received on Oct. 04,2003. Kind of a long lapse in time. I wonder how many others are lost or delayed this much ????? Linda >"JIM & BECKY PAYNE" > > >Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY >Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:12:54 -0700 > >I will give a try at this John. Your question is dependent uon whether there is a God in total control. This world is presently owned by a fallen angel. The God that allows things to happen does so because we are free to do things without Him if we wish. We can ask Him to intervene on our behalf and He often does. >Let me give you an anology. >There was a mother who was doing embroidry as a child sat on the floor at her feet. The child watched his mother closely and finaly asked why she was working so hard on something that was not even pretty to look at. >The mother said child come up here with me and look. The child climbed up on his mothers lap and looked. There withall the stitching was a pretty cottage with a white picket fence and many flowers. >Our life is something like that. Right now it is sometimes hard to see why God allows things to happen in spite of our prayers. But there is far more at work than we can see and understan. Sometimes we are able to look back and see how changes for the better did happen or that we frew stronger from a wekness. Sometime things happen because we were not where we were supposed to be. One must learn to attune to guidiance when it is given. This sometimes means taking out time in our much too busy lives to listen. >A fallen angel is at work to give humanity misery just so those very humans will deny and hate and evenisolate themselves from a loving God. > > > > > - > John Polifronio > > Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:20 PM > Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY > > > I understand, and agree with much that you've said here. But two points. 1) I wasn't engaging in mockery. 2) The central question I asked remains unanswered: i.e., what sense is there in appealing to a god for help with disasters, diseases, etc., if this deity could have prevented them in the first place? Why would god allow a disaster to befall us in the first place; it's not as if this god doesn't know the suffering it would cause us. > - > Ed Siceloff > > Saturday, September 13, 2003 10:01 PM > RE: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY > > > Is a statement of being, or not being for that matter, a religious statement? One's position as to religion is stated by averring pro or con. Agnosticism, as well as atheism, as well as humanism are all statements of religion, even as the request for prayer would be a statement about a religion. One bows the knee to a god, while the others bow the knee to something, often anything, they define as not god. Where does one find their certainty at, and indeed, what is certainty. > > Anybody's world and life view starts off with unprovable presuppositions that fall into the realm of faith. From the point of view of logic, we can all make a mockery of somebody else's because of the inherent circular reasoning. Yet, presuppositions are the foundation of mathematics, and the rest of science. Presuppositions are the foundation of the irrational as well, at least as far as the irrational is stated. Religion, or one's particular individualized faith statements, are a part of all of life as they are the basis of the individual's belief about, ah, everything. > > I've always had a hard time about keeping "religion" off the board here at health and healing. I've pretty much done so. I really wish that others would do so as well, or, does keeping "religion" off the board only relate to unwanted religions? In which case, we need a statement about which ones are unwanted. > > And, "white lightening", the flood that kills many, as well as destroys so many buildings also blesses as to the deposition of much fertile silt to grow food in. The hurricane, the tornado, the blizzard, the forest fire, all are events that have a blessing side, and a curse side. Some die, some live. One prays for a sunny day, while another needs the rain. We might pray for a sick and dying loved one, for life, while that loved one prays for death. Death is blessing, and it is a curse. Life is blessing and it is a curse. > > > > Ed > > > > > John Polifronio [counterpnt] > Saturday, September 13, 2003 11:01 PM > > Re: Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY > > > > I'm curious, why you believe that it makes sense to pray for help with > Isabelle from your God. If God has the power to change the course of this > storm, He had the power to keep that storm from threatening us in the first > place. > Forgive my agnosticism, but I fail to see the point in praying to a deity, > to protect a child from the cancer that is threatening to destroy her, if > this deity could have prevented that child from developing the cancer in the > first place. > JP > - > "whiteligtning2000" > > Saturday, September 13, 2003 7:40 PM > Isabelle - WE NEED TO PRAY > > > In all seriousness Isabelle is very dangerous and on a path of > destruction at this moment a category five storm...........I feel it > is time that we come together and spin this storm out to sea > > I have learned one thing about the weather - is that the weather has > a personality of its own > > > When you pray - be sure to send it away into cold > waters.................ask that God the Lord of the Weather take its > power and weaken it that it not touch anyone > > Ask God The Lord of the weather to cause it to curve right out into > sea and not touch a single person > > PEOPLE this is a dangerous storm, all serious here, and I would > suggest you get your maps out and lay hands > > Lets work this storm away from the usa and out to sea > > PLease lets join hands and do this for the next 48 hours > > thank you > sheyla > > > > > > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤» > > NATIONWIDE DENTAL BENEFITS PACKAGE PLUS > SAVE UP TO 80% on DENTAL, PRESCRIPTIONS DRUGS, > GLASSES, CONTACTS, VISION CARE, & CHIROPRACTIC. > $11.95 For Single or > $19.95 For an entire household per month! > Immediate Coverage * No Waiting Period > Pre-existing Covered * No Limit on Benefits > > http://www.mybenefitsplus.com/MMerrill/ > > Email: MEM121 > > «¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤»§«¤»¥«¤ > » > > § - PULSE ON WORLD HEALTH CONSPIRACIES! § > > Subscribe:......... - > To :.... - > > Any information here in is for educational purpose only, it may be news > related, purely speculation or someone's opinion. Always consult with a > qualified health practitioner before deciding on any course of treatment, > especially for serious or life-threatening illnesses. > **COPYRIGHT NOTICE** > In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, > any copyrighted work in this message is distributed under fair use without > profit or payment to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving > the included information for non-profit research and educational purposes > only. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.