Guest guest Posted November 26, 1999 Report Share Posted November 26, 1999 Don't know if any of you have read Peter Eckman's book " In the Footsteps of the Yellow Emperor: Tracing the History of Traditional Acupuncture " ? It is a wonderful, well researched book about Traditional Acupuncture, and it covers many of the points you've raised. The various schools of thought and practice of Acupuncture/ through the centuries....the Chinese, Japanese, Korean, European schools etc. He talks quite a bit about Leamington Spa Acupuncture (Dr.Worsley style 5 Element) and does some comparision between that and the Eight Principles (TCM) approach. It's ALL part of the vast landscape of Acupuncture/Oriental Medicine and it's such a joy to study and practice it's wonders and evolution!! The book costs $35.00 and is available through Redwing Books......believe they have a websight. Might also check Amazon.com. Aloha, Janine acupuncture [acupuncture ] Tuesday, November 23, 1999 12:59 AM acupuncture acupuncture Digest Number 114 There are 7 messages in this issue. Topics in today's digest: 1. Re: Digest Number 109 " murray " <murrayc 2. frozen shoulder " murray " <murrayc 3. TCM/5E " geovani " <inandor 4. Five Element--Book recommendation Christina <tcmresources 5. Re: TCM/5E 6. Re: TCM/5E Greg Dember <dember 7. SV: TCM/5E " Patrick Dooley " <patrick.dooley __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 1 Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:13:39 +1100 " murray " <murrayc Re: Digest Number 109 acupuncture <acupuncture > acupuncture <acupuncture > Thursday, November 18, 1999 10:04 PM acupuncture Digest Number 109 > >> >There are 12 messages in this issue. > >Topics in today's digest: > > 1. Re: Cun Ruler. > " geovani " <inandor > 2. Re: re aggravated shoulder pain > " geovani " <inandor > 3. questions re acup studies > " murray " <murrayc > 4. The wholistic approuche. > " geovani " <inandor > 5. Re: questions re acup studies > " geovani " <inandor > 6. dull needles > Greg Dember <dember > 7. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 8. Re: dull needles > Greg Dember <dember > 9. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 10. Re: dull needles > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum > 11. TCM/5-E > " geovani " <inandor > 12. Re: dull needles > Rick Kramer <kramer > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 1 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:34:09 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >Re: Cun Ruler. > > > > " Marty Rickard " <martyr > >Good Point!! > >> the trouble with elastic is that how do you put a dot on or your finger on >> the point? >> As soon as you try, sproooiiinggg, the elastic is history. > >My friend had devised a rather cunning (contorted?) method of doing this >involving 2 fingers and a thumb, but it could prove to be an issue in the >short term. > >;-) > >MR > >geovani: Seems a good ideia,...to get used to the " general " >position of the points. But how it works exactly? You probably >take to references - like the pulse and elbow - and place the >proper amount of cuns in the interval with an elastic ruler. Nice. >I would hold one end with the little finger of one hand on the >ruller, and use the thumb of that same hand as the marker. >Should work with moust of the points. And as it is being pointed out, >this would be good to get the initial general positioning of the points. > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 2 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 09:43:25 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >Re: re aggravated shoulder pain > > > > " murray " <murrayc > >When a problem gets more painful after a treatment, there a several reasons >for this, in relation to the shoulder pain I'll deal with the most common >reason, and that is there is a blockage of energy & or blood in the area >very stagnant energy ) and if you put distal points in first it will have >the affect of sending extra energy to the area to clear the blockage, but if >the blockage is old, the extra energy backs up where the blockage is and >this >will sometimes cause more pain until it clears, it often takes quite a lot >of shifting trying to clear the blockage, but it will eventually clear >usually within 24 hours. Even so the pain won't last and the result will >still be a positive one, to sum it up put in local points first and distal >points second. >If its an old problem or injury insert local needles in first to clear the >area, wait a couple of minutes then put in the distal points appropriate to >the problem, this will prevent the pain from getting worse, there are other >reasons that this may occur but as I said this is the most common. This is >an old acupuncture law that applies to headaches particularly migraines, >always put local point in first to disperse the blockage then distal points >second. hope this is of help to someone. cheers Murray. > >geovani: Interesting, thx. Another point. In case of small >calcifications (p. ex. in the shoulder joint), could it be possible >that with the reestablishment of the proper QI equilibrium, >the solid deposits would dissolve and disapear? Or no such >thing is possible? Because if this is not possible, then i would >think that acupuncture would not deal with such situation - except >as a paliative to diminuish pain (?) > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 3 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:17:35 +1100 > " murray " <murrayc >questions re acup studies > >Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you >wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified >as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if >any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was >there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? >especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate >any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 4 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:11:54 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >The wholistic approuche. > >geovani: Well.....this patient comes in complaining about those >shoulder pains. So, as Murray expounded it, one maybe should >start with the local points, and only after a few minutes go for the >distal ones. But something must be further brought out here.... >Is the " real desiese " shoulder pains? Would it be correct to say >that the " nature " of this deseise is a desequilibrium of QI at the >shoulder level? I don't think so...In an absolute wholistic point of >wiew there is only one desiese: the desequilibrium of the " vital >energy " , and the local, acute simptoms, are episodical manifestations >of the one main deseise. I am having dificulties to bring this down >to an acupuncturist perspective, yet. So, in our particular case, >the shoulder patient, desregarding other issues but the genuine >scientific approuche to the situation, I would think that only a part >of the practicioners attention should be focused on the shoulder pain itself. >So we are desregarding the fact that this person may be sufering >strong pains (requiring some paliative actions), desregarding the fact >that if we don't deal with those shoulders fast, the patient will probably >abandon treatment (so one must explain to him the situation). >The main part of the attention will be directed in trying to find out >the " real " " deep " nature of the desequilibrium of energy - the real nature >of the sickness. > >Unfortunatly I must stop here, because my perspective about acupuncture >as one whole entity is lacking. I am still dealing with fragments, but deep inside >I know that one day I will have to put these fragments toghether into one unit, in >orther to be able to deal with the real source of QI desequilibrium. For instance.... >and this is just a guess in form a question....if the shoulder pain is related to the >bones and articulations, why not start with GB 11 - the general point of bones? >Or why not start with a point that deals with the general desequibrium of Yin/Yang? >In a first fast wiew on the subject (wholistic acup.) I would think that if such a point >exists (general Yin/Yang), why not puncture it in any and all circumstances? >So....what are your thoughts concerning the wholistic approuche in acup.? >If I eventualy succeed in stoping that local pain, that local disorder, will not >the real disorder continue? Will it not blow up in some other part - maybe in some >more vital organ then before? I defenitly feel that to deal with the localised disorder >exclusively, is not a genuine healing procedure.... > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 5 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:21:36 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >Re: questions re acup studies > > > > " murray " <murrayc > >Dear fellow Acupuncturists, I would like some feedback on why any of you >wanted to study acup initially? and another question is after you qualified >as an acupuncturist what do you feel was lacking in your training inTCM if >any, that could have been useful or more specific in any area of acup, was >there still questions you had that were never answered to your satisfaction? >especially in the area of diagnosis and choosing points, I would appreciate >any feedback or thoughts you may have in these area's, Murray > >geovani: LOL LOL Hey, Murray...we seemed to have the same concerns >when writing our posts (wholistic....and, questions re......) at the same time. >I honestly beleive that if points are chosen having only the local, or accute >disorder in mind, some frustration will certainly be born. Because it is not >very effective to put a patch in a small hole in an attempt to stop the leaking, >if the realy big hole is left untouched... > >Keep in mind when treating a frozen shoulder that the reason is usually because of a heart problem and that there are some points that should not be used because they release accumulated bad energy and could kill the patient, this is not generally known but it is a fact. There are specific points that are ok and of course some rotating exercies used in martial art that are excellent for frozen shoulder. Murray > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 6 > Wed, 17 Nov 99 10:31:31 -0800 > Greg Dember <dember >dull needles > >>What I meant is that needles lose their sharpness, are less able to >>penetrate cleanly after using particular points. I notice this when I've >>used a point with particularly strong action, for example a strong spirit >>point that will be important for the patient, or a strong command >>point.(I'm a practitioner of 11 years experience) >> >>Amanda > > >I thought this was what you might have meant, rather then the qi >sensation being dull. How interesting! In the US, as far as I know, few >of us re-use needles. I never have. So that's interesting-- you find >that the needle is worn down faster after a powerful qi connection. > >Greg > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 7 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:04:19 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >Re: dull needles > >I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? >Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for two >or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment >approach? > >Amanda > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 8 > Wed, 17 Nov 99 15:10:17 -0800 > Greg Dember <dember >Re: dull needles > >>I'm interested that you don't reuse needles in the States - why is this? >>Here, we generally will use each (pre-sterilised, disposable) needle for two >>or three insertions. Is your practice a policy thing, or a treatment >>approach? > > >It's a policy thing.... but you know what? Maybe this is a TCM vs. 5-E >thing. Are you a 5-E practitioner? Am I right that you sometimes use >very brief insertion times, with a sequence of insertions? If that is >the case, it would make sense to reuse a needle a few times on the same >patient within the same treatment. In my practice (I'm electic grounded >in TCM) I almost always leave the needles in for 15-30 minutes, then >take them all out at once. So I wouldn't be re-using a needle within one >session. > > >By the way.... I respect Five Element Acupuncture, and I even have >friends who are of that persuasion, but sometimes it bugs me when 5-E >practitioners give out the impression that TCM acupuncturists don't base >their treatments on the Five Elements. Or that we don't treat emotional >issues. > >Greg Dember > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 9 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:38:36 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >Re: dull needles > >Hi Greg > >yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my >training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate >flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in >the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. > >this list is getting interesting! > >Regards > >amanda > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 10 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:42:47 -0000 > " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >Re: dull needles > >oops, just found your second paragraph. I agree that TCM effectively >addresses emotional issues - I think that the Five Element elitism stems >from an old history, personality politics, stuff best forgotten. That said, >my TCM training never took me to the spirit of points in the way that Five >Element did, and I'm glad of my training at Leamington for that above all >else. > >Amanda > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 11 > Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:27:48 -0200 > " geovani " <inandor >TCM/5-E > >TCM and 5-E. Greg and Amanda.... >I would be very glad if you could give a brief clarification in >this two different approuches....I feel that this might take us >into the core of some important issues (even if it is a bit >repetitive, please). I think I can handle some details awlready... :^) > >geovani > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > >Message: 12 > Thu, 18 Nov 1999 07:32:07 +0200 > Rick Kramer <kramer >Re: dull needles > >This can be dangerous as muscle fibers can be caught on the needle. Best to >close ones eyes and imagine either sucking the bad qi out all the while >pumping ever so slightly the needle in an outward direction - for >tonification, do the exact opposite. It works wonderfully without any danger. > > > >BoumBoum wrote: > >> " BoumBoum " <boum.boum >> >> Hi Greg >> >> yes, that'll be it. I'm trained in and practice both styles, though my >> training of TCM also included tonification of points to move/stimulate >> flow. this action involves brief insertion, with rotation of the needle in >> the point by 180 degrees before withdrawal. >> > >-- >************************************************************ > Dr. Rick Kramer kramer > List Moderator > Projectives List > ++972-3-570-7245 ISRAEL >--------------------------- > > > > > >_________________________ ____ >_________________________ ____ > > __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 2 Mon, 22 Nov 1999 21:38:51 +1100 " murray " <murrayc frozen shoulder >Keep in mind when treating a frozen shoulder that the reason is usually because of a heart problem and that there are some points that should not be used because they release accumulated bad energy and could kill the patient, this is not generally known but it is a fact. There are specific points that are ok and of course some rotating exercise used in martial art that are excellent for frozen shoulder to be used after acup treatment. I agree that with any problem it's important to diagnose the person and not just look at the presenting problem as in shoulder pain, otherwise you would only have a symptomatic treatment. Murray > __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 3 Mon, 22 Nov 1999 12:19:23 -0200 " geovani " <inandor TCM/5E It seems to me, more and more, that there is not realy any deep fundamental difference between the two approuches we are talking about. The point where things might have taken a differnt turn, is where the professional starts to rely on the treatment recepies. In the TCM it is pointed out that the 5 elements as pairs of organ/viscera are interdependent on each other and mutualy conected to form an entirety. If one goes further into these expositions, it is clearly noted that it is not sugested in any way that one should depart from the vision of the human being as a whole. Maybe the so called 5E school of acup. trys to take advantage, or looks more intensly, or considers more fundamental, in order to " see " the nature of the weak link in the chain of 5 elements, the psichical or mental manifestations. But the TCM approuche is not far from that, by looking into the " general " deviations of the individual - things like heat, damp, humid, active etc...Both approuches are envisioning the human entity as an entirety. The real " gap " appears, it seems to me, in the end part of these TCM books, where they suddenly go on into expounding the recepies for the " cure " of different desieses. In one hand i feel that those recepies are indeed important data gathered through centurys of clinical practice....but maybe they lead the less attent practicioner to slip into the notion that that is the important or fundamental part of the whole " teaching " . All i can say ,at this point of my inquiery, that maybe one should, reavaliate the real meaning of the acup. recepies. They must have a definite place in the tottality of the acup. knowledge, for they may represent some statistical reality...but not exactly where they seem to fit. geovani __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 4 Mon, 22 Nov 1999 08:24:43 -0800 (PST) Christina <tcmresources Five Element--Book recommendation A new book that is very good for 5 element acupuncture and theory is Nourishing Destiny by Lonnie Jarrett available from Spirit Path Press. I think the web site is www.spiritpathpress.com. Check it out. Christina --- BoumBoum <boum.boum wrote: > Hi Ewald and everyone > > a good book on Five Element is Dianne Connelly's 'Law of Five > Elements', > which is carried by Amazon.com - it's a bit of a dry read, but does > give you > a clear sense of the elemental associations which we use so much in > Five > element practice. > > amanda > > <HR> <html> > __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 5 Mon, 22 Nov 1999 13:09:21 EST Re: TCM/5E At this point I feel obligated to give my rap about TCM and defending it in this way: TCM was created as a way for many people to learn in a short time and fairly comprehensively. Before, most of the tradition was passed down through the families. The Chinese Government wanted to popularize the medicine and for the most part they have succeeded. It has allowed 100's of thousands of people to learn it across the world. First in China and now in the West. (They also wanted to control it too... so that the many esoteric practices would not conflict with an aethistic communism.) I would agree that it is not " the true medicine " or maybe not even the best medicine for many cases but I am grateful that I was able to learn something about and to gain an entry into the medicine. In a year or so I could needle people, in two work in a clinic and be fairly good, I think, and within 3 graduate and eventually have a license. Looked at this way one can see the strengths and weaknesses without judging the motives of those that " invented " TCM. __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 6 Mon, 22 Nov 99 11:55:31 -0800 Greg Dember <dember Re: TCM/5E said: >At this point I feel obligated to give my rap about TCM and defending it in >this way: TCM was created as a way for many people to learn Chinese Medicine >in a short time and fairly comprehensively. Also, in my experience, the standard Chinese-governent endorsed TCM just forms the skeleton of acupuncture education in an American TCM-based acupuncture school. My teachers, including the Chinese ones, always included the spiritual and more " esoteric " stuff, the macro-cosm/micro-cosm, 5 elements, Hun and Po. In our school we had Tai-chi classes, qi-gong, and we could optionally study energetic healing from Western traditions such as Cranio-sacral, Therapeutic Touch, Homeopathy. Furthermore, when comparing the relative " spirituality " of Chinese acupuncture and British acupuncture (which is what I consider 5E) keep in mind that the Chinese as a culture don't separate out Spiritual or Psychological dimension from the physical as much as we do. So the spiritual and psychological are mingled with the physical/physiological in such a way that they don't stand out, but it doesn't mean they're not there. I can think of one my Chinese acupuncture teachers in particular who would always laugh at the idea of a " God " , but in his presence and actions he was a very " spiritual " person. He was one of the most powerful channelers of Qi that I have personally met. Anyway, the way I see it, 5-E and TCM are both modern adaptations of a very traditional approach to healing, and in each case are simply a launching pad from which practitioners can develop their own connection with qi and healing. -- Greg __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 7 Tue, 23 Nov 1999 11:38:13 +0100 " Patrick Dooley " <patrick.dooley SV: TCM/5E I'm very curious about where indeed the discourse of TCM vis á vis 5 Elements stems from? Does anyoe here really know the answer to this question? In Sweden TCM means Traditional Within this paradigm Yin/Yang and Wu Xing are an integral part of TCM. No ancient writings nor modern translations of these writings that I've read suggest that TCM is either this or that. In diagnosing we take into consideration Yin/Yang, Wu Xing, The 6 energy levels: Tai Yang, Shao Yang, Yang Ming, Tai Yin, Tsue Yin, and Shoa Yin, also The 8 extraordinary Meridians:Du Mai, Ren Mai, Chong Mai, Dai Mai, Yin/Yang Qiao, and Yin/Yang Wei. There is indeed different spelling for these concepts depending on what " school " one's knowledge was acquired. It is quite intriguing to listen to this sort of discourse in fact the rhetoric of many in this discussion is confusing. This approach or that approach has an heir of " us and/or them " . I concur with Geovani about recipes.I believe a recipe is not and individual approach and often forgets to that symptoms and sickness can come from many different sources. There are a few points that are always specific for some imbalances but then there are always individual points as well. Regards Patrick Dooley -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Från: geovani [inandor] Skickat: den 22 november 1999 15:19 Till: acupuncture Ämne: acupuncture TCM/5E It seems to me, more and more, that there is not realy any deep fundamental difference between the two approuches we are talking about. The point where things might have taken a differnt turn, is where the professional starts to rely on the treatment recepies. In the TCM it is pointed out that the 5 elements as pairs of organ/viscera are interdependent on each other and mutualy conected to form an entirety. If one goes further into these expositions, it is clearly noted that it is not sugested in any way that one should depart from the vision of the human being as a whole. Maybe the so called 5E school of acup. trys to take advantage, or looks more intensly, or considers more fundamental, in order to " see " the nature of the weak link in the chain of 5 elements, the psichical or mental manifestations. But the TCM approuche is not far from that, by looking into the " general " deviations of the individual - things like heat, damp, humid, active etc...Both approuches are envisioning the human entity as an entirety. The real " gap " appears, it seems to me, in the end part of these TCM books, where they suddenly go on into expounding the recepies for the " cure " of different desieses. In one hand i feel that those recepies are indeed important data gathered through centurys of clinical practice....but maybe they lead the less attent practicioner to slip into the notion that that is the important or fundamental part of the whole " teaching " . All i can say ,at this point of my inquiery, that maybe one should, reavaliate the real meaning of the acup. recepies. They must have a definite place in the tottality of the acup. knowledge, for they may represent some statistical reality...but not exactly where they seem to fit. geovani __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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