Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 In a message dated 1/4/2000 7:24:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, viking writes: << Personally, I have a problem with DCs even being given the same level of consideration as the other two types of doctors. DCs - IN MY VIEW - are just a step above a well trained Physical Therapist. They are licensed to take xrays, but the xrays that I have personally witnessed from several chiropractors was atrocious! They apparently have no governing overseers to monitor their xray radiation procedures, as do traditional physicians. Well, that is another story. >> Hello, Having an intimate knowledge of Chiropractic, I can tell you that they have the equivelent education of a medical doctor. Time in school is the same. The main difference is they focus on spinal manipulation instead of pharmacology and surgery. The anatomy, physiology, microbioology,etc.. are all the same. How many MDs even take their own x-rays. At our clinic, they send patients to a diagnostic center. My 2 cents, R. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 In a message dated 1/4/2000 7:34:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, viking writes: << By the way, R. Scott Malone, I forgot to ask in my last message... where did you train to earn your DOM? I didn't think any TCM schools here in the states offered a DOM; thought that only if you trained in China did one earn a DOM; did you? And what do the letters: " AP " stand for that you use? Thanks, R. " Dane " Looman, PA >> Our state organization is trying to get DOM to be the national moniker for acupuncturists. In Florida we can use DOM in conjunction with AP, (acupuncture physician), But we can not use it alone, or put Dr in front of our names. There are so many titles, OMD, DOM, LAc,AP..etc..., they are pushing for a universally accepted title. There is also talk of allowing only those with a four year degree to use DOM. It's very confusing, and the status seems to change a bit, but for now I use it in conjunction with AP. I think that for the sake of our image as physicians, DOM carries more weight than AP, but then again, what's in a name. As long as I am allowed to treat, they can call me Joe if they wish. I know Chiro's and MD's tend to turn over a lot of patients in a short amount of time compared to us, so I wonder if they would really bother to delve too deeply into our art. It seems to me, that above quick cookbook, it would cost them money. Any thoughts on that? R. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 Hello Isabell and 'R. Scott', and Happy New Millenium! Isabell, I read your interesting letter with disbelief, as well as interest. And your response, 'R. Scott', was informative, as well. I am, and have been, a Physician Assistant (PA) over the past 26 years, and have specialized in Occupational Health (Master's degree in Occupational Health & Safety Management). Because of the changing tides of the medical field in general, as well as an innate interest in Traditional (full discipline), I am looking to enter a three (3) year course in TCM as soon as my situation permits, along with a 'correspondence' course in homeopathy. (I won't go into my reasons for that; suffice it to say that I want as much background tools as I can acquire in order to do medical-missionary type work). Anyway, I was startled to learn that your annual renewal fee requirements, both in the state of Illinois, and Florida, too, were so steep. As a PA here in Texas my license renewal fee is $185.00, plus 40 Continuing Medical Education (CMEs) units each year ... 20 in a category I, and 20 in a category II. As you both may know, there is a large movement of both MDs, DOs as well as DCs (chiropractors) across the states who are looking for additional sources of revenue for their practices. With so much publicity to the laity about alternative, and " holistic " medical modalities available, and traditional pharmacies now heavily marketing herbs, alongside their traditional Over the Counter health aides, that it is common that these MDs, DOs and of course - DCs to take the easiest fastest, simplest routes to any licensing requirements to peddle their trades with offerings of acupuncture, or whatever. To me, (and obviously to you, too) it is NOT fair that other medical care professionals should have a short-cut ticket to licensing, and one that you're not eligible for because you're not an MD, DO or DC. Personally, I have a problem with DCs even being given the same level of consideration as the other two types of doctors. DCs - IN MY VIEW - are just a step above a well trained Physical Therapist. They are licensed to take xrays, but the xrays that I have personally witnessed from several chiropractors was atrocious! They apparently have no governing overseers to monitor their xray radiation procedures, as do traditional physicians. Well, that is another story. Anyway, as an 'acupuncturist - wanna - be', I am absolutely on your side on this training requirement for licensure disparity issue. I, personally, want to be 'fully' trained before I attempt to engage patients. I also go along with R. Scott's recommendation - support your professional organization or society to try to influence legislation. Good luck to you both. R. Dane Looman, PA (Texas) At 11:43 AM 01/04/2000 +0000, you wrote: >------ > >There are 2 messages in this issue. > >Topics in today's digest: > > 1. Digest Number 127 > McArenAcu > 2. Re: Digest Number 127 > JADEFRST > > >_________________________ >____ >_________________________ >____ > >Message: 1 > Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:17:34 EST > McArenAcu >Digest Number 127 > >Hello, my name is Isabell McAren and I am an acupuncturist in Illinois. I had >a couple of comments I wanted to throw out there and see what you all >thought. > >In Illinois, MDs and Chiropractors can practice acupuncture with little or no >training. Chiropractors need only to have 200 hrs worth of seminars to >practice. They also get insurance reimbursement. Acupuncturists, on the other >hand, must have graduated from an accredited school, have passed the NCCA >boards, have paid $500. for an Illinois license (which has to be renewed >every 2 years for the same cost), and must get a referral letter from every >patient's Dr. or Chiro. We can't sell herbs unless we become certified >nutritionists, we can't use a laser, and we don't get insurance >reimbursement. We also have to keep up with our CEU's. > >I was talking to a chiropractor the other day, and he said that chiropractors >were the ones who brought acupuncture over to the U.S. He said they learn a >different method than us, and that it is more effective. He said acupuncture >can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs of just the basics and that it is >ridiculous to spend 3 years in acupuncture school. He also said that the >classes in acupuncture that he attended were taught by a chiropractor and >were only open to chiropractors or MDs. If you weren't a Dr, you didn't get >in. > >Does anyone out there have a comment on this? Thanks for your opinions, >Isabell > > >_________________________ >____ >_________________________ >____ > >Message: 2 > Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:05:58 EST > JADEFRST >Re: Digest Number 127 > >In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:17:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, >McArenAcu writes: > ><< Hello, my name is Isabell McAren and I am an acupuncturist in Illinois. I >had > a couple of comments I wanted to throw out there and see what you all > thought. > > In Illinois, MDs and Chiropractors can practice acupuncture with little or >no > training. Chiropractors need only to have 200 hrs worth of seminars to > practice. They also get insurance reimbursement. Acupuncturists, on the >other > hand, must have graduated from an accredited school, have passed the NCCA > boards, have paid $500. for an Illinois license (which has to be renewed > every 2 years for the same cost), and must get a referral letter from every > patient's Dr. or Chiro. We can't sell herbs unless we become certified > nutritionists, we can't use a laser, and we don't get insurance > reimbursement. We also have to keep up with our CEU's. > > I was talking to a chiropractor the other day, and he said that >chiropractors > were the ones who brought acupuncture over to the U.S. He said they learn a > different method than us, and that it is more effective. He said > acupuncture > can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs of just the basics and that it is > ridiculous to spend 3 years in acupuncture school. He also said that the > classes in acupuncture that he attended were taught by a chiropractor and > were only open to chiropractors or MDs. If you weren't a Dr, you didn't get > in. >> > >Hello Isabelle, >We have a similar situation here in Florida, though not as grim. >Chiro's and MD's need only 200 hrs as well. >We take the Florida board, and for another $800.00 you get national >accreditation. >Our state lisence is $400.00, We are primary care physicians, and some >though not too many insurance companies pay. We too need CEU's. I beliefe it >is 32 hrs every 2 yrs. They do a random audit, and if you don't have >verification, it results in a fine, and/or action against your license. We >have a pretty broad scope down here. >Herbs and supplements as well as laser - all acceptable, as well as Tui-Na. > >My father, mother, and uncle as well as about 4 other extended family members >are >Chiropractors, and they agree that it is irresponsable to practice >acupuncture with only 200 hrs. I don't think they would think that if it >weren't for my educating them though. > >My thought is that acupuncture and Chinese medicine came over with the waves >of Chinese immegrants, although some attribute it to Nixon's aide who was >treated in China, and brought back news of how well it worked. (I think I >have the story straight.) >Our state organization is constantly fighting for our rights. The medics and >chiros are constantly trying to absorb us into their scope of practice. >We are going to 4 years college and four years of college in Chinese >medicine, I believe in the next few years, but there is talk of disallowing >any grandfathering. > >Your Chiro friend is mistaken in any event, and is probably trying to justify >the irresponsabiliity of being sorely undereducated, and using acupuncture. >If he thinks that acupuncture can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs, either >believes the bill of goods that was sold to him, or he doesn't know his A** >from a hole in the ground. Ask him what he thinks about acupuncturists taking >a 200 hr course and >being certified to correct spinal subluxations, and listen to him defended >his art. > >It's tough for us at this stage, but I think the only way for us to survive >is to support our state organizations. They are the ones who fight our >battles in the gov't. > >Hope this was helpful, >R. Scott Malone D.O.M., A.P. > > >_________________________ >____ >_________________________ >____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 By the way, R. Scott Malone, I forgot to ask in my last message... where did you train to earn your DOM? I didn't think any TCM schools here in the states offered a DOM; thought that only if you trained in China did one earn a DOM; did you? And what do the letters: " AP " stand for that you use? Thanks, R. " Dane " Looman, PA At 11:43 AM 01/04/2000 +0000, you wrote: >------ > >There are 2 messages in this issue. > >Topics in today's digest: > > 1. Digest Number 127 > McArenAcu > 2. Re: Digest Number 127 > JADEFRST > > >_________________________ >____ >_________________________ >____ > >Message: 1 > Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:17:34 EST > McArenAcu >Digest Number 127 > >Hello, my name is Isabell McAren and I am an acupuncturist in Illinois. I had >a couple of comments I wanted to throw out there and see what you all >thought. > >In Illinois, MDs and Chiropractors can practice acupuncture with little or no >training. Chiropractors need only to have 200 hrs worth of seminars to >practice. They also get insurance reimbursement. Acupuncturists, on the other >hand, must have graduated from an accredited school, have passed the NCCA >boards, have paid $500. for an Illinois license (which has to be renewed >every 2 years for the same cost), and must get a referral letter from every >patient's Dr. or Chiro. We can't sell herbs unless we become certified >nutritionists, we can't use a laser, and we don't get insurance >reimbursement. We also have to keep up with our CEU's. > >I was talking to a chiropractor the other day, and he said that chiropractors >were the ones who brought acupuncture over to the U.S. He said they learn a >different method than us, and that it is more effective. He said acupuncture >can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs of just the basics and that it is >ridiculous to spend 3 years in acupuncture school. He also said that the >classes in acupuncture that he attended were taught by a chiropractor and >were only open to chiropractors or MDs. If you weren't a Dr, you didn't get >in. > >Does anyone out there have a comment on this? Thanks for your opinions, >Isabell > > >_________________________ >____ >_________________________ >____ > >Message: 2 > Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:05:58 EST > JADEFRST >Re: Digest Number 127 > >In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:17:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, >McArenAcu writes: > ><< Hello, my name is Isabell McAren and I am an acupuncturist in Illinois. I >had > a couple of comments I wanted to throw out there and see what you all > thought. > > In Illinois, MDs and Chiropractors can practice acupuncture with little or >no > training. Chiropractors need only to have 200 hrs worth of seminars to > practice. They also get insurance reimbursement. Acupuncturists, on the >other > hand, must have graduated from an accredited school, have passed the NCCA > boards, have paid $500. for an Illinois license (which has to be renewed > every 2 years for the same cost), and must get a referral letter from every > patient's Dr. or Chiro. We can't sell herbs unless we become certified > nutritionists, we can't use a laser, and we don't get insurance > reimbursement. We also have to keep up with our CEU's. > > I was talking to a chiropractor the other day, and he said that >chiropractors > were the ones who brought acupuncture over to the U.S. He said they learn a > different method than us, and that it is more effective. He said > acupuncture > can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs of just the basics and that it is > ridiculous to spend 3 years in acupuncture school. He also said that the > classes in acupuncture that he attended were taught by a chiropractor and > were only open to chiropractors or MDs. If you weren't a Dr, you didn't get > in. >> > >Hello Isabelle, >We have a similar situation here in Florida, though not as grim. >Chiro's and MD's need only 200 hrs as well. >We take the Florida board, and for another $800.00 you get national >accreditation. >Our state lisence is $400.00, We are primary care physicians, and some >though not too many insurance companies pay. We too need CEU's. I beliefe it >is 32 hrs every 2 yrs. They do a random audit, and if you don't have >verification, it results in a fine, and/or action against your license. We >have a pretty broad scope down here. >Herbs and supplements as well as laser - all acceptable, as well as Tui-Na. > >My father, mother, and uncle as well as about 4 other extended family members >are >Chiropractors, and they agree that it is irresponsable to practice >acupuncture with only 200 hrs. I don't think they would think that if it >weren't for my educating them though. > >My thought is that acupuncture and Chinese medicine came over with the waves >of Chinese immegrants, although some attribute it to Nixon's aide who was >treated in China, and brought back news of how well it worked. (I think I >have the story straight.) >Our state organization is constantly fighting for our rights. The medics and >chiros are constantly trying to absorb us into their scope of practice. >We are going to 4 years college and four years of college in Chinese >medicine, I believe in the next few years, but there is talk of disallowing >any grandfathering. > >Your Chiro friend is mistaken in any event, and is probably trying to justify >the irresponsabiliity of being sorely undereducated, and using acupuncture. >If he thinks that acupuncture can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs, either >believes the bill of goods that was sold to him, or he doesn't know his A** >from a hole in the ground. Ask him what he thinks about acupuncturists taking >a 200 hr course and >being certified to correct spinal subluxations, and listen to him defended >his art. > >It's tough for us at this stage, but I think the only way for us to survive >is to support our state organizations. They are the ones who fight our >battles in the gov't. > >Hope this was helpful, >R. Scott Malone D.O.M., A.P. > > >_________________________ >____ >_________________________ >____ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 4, 2000 Report Share Posted January 4, 2000 Aloha Isabell, The 200 hour training for MD's, DO's, Chiropractors and dentists was also the situation in Maryland when I in my training in 1990. When I was licensed, we had to have a Dr. referral and he had no idea the Acupuncture treatment was about, but he made a fee on the referral (payable by my patient.. I also lost patients because of this). There were also the same insurance restrictions and needless to say it was very frustrating. I had a patient who had been an asthmatic for 23 years, on loads of meds and after a course of Acupuncture treatment she was off her meds and her asthma was under control. She stopped seeing me and nearly a year later she called to say her asthma was very bad again. She then shared that she had been seeing an Osteopath for Acupuncture (for her back) because it was covered by Medicare (government insurance for people over 65 in the US). I said she should tell her practitioner about her asthma so she could treat it. The patient called me back the next week and said, the DO didn't know how to treat this problem. It was apparent to me that she had been thrown out of balance with the (I'm sure) muscular-skeletal treatments to her back that she had been receiving, with no real idea of Oriental diagnosis and balancing her Chi. This experience gave me a greater confidence and resolve in the the training we receive and how strong and united we must be in defending the unique contribution and value that Acupuncture offers to the world of health and healing. I know it is so difficult to deal with these forces and attitudes. Since Acupuncture Licensing in MD came under the Physicians Quality Assurance board, we had no real power. The state organization hired a lobbyist, it took 2 years but the law was changed. Acupuncturist were now primary care providers eligable for insurance reimbursement, if one's training was not from a fully accedited 2 1/2 - 3 year program then licensing was not granted (L.Ac., our scope of practice also included herbs. The Acupuncture Board was established to license and direct ourselves, AND if a doctor only had 200 hours or less, then the title used was Medical Acupuncture not Licensed Acupuncturist. Interesting that after that, quite a few docs stopped doing Acupuncture or if they were serious they went to school for licensing. I also like that CEU's are required, it keeps us current and gives our profession credibility. Get active in your area organizations it's the only way to grow strong...Remember we are coming from an Oriental tradition based in Taoism...our inner strength grows from the humility we gain being an instrument for this work. It is our chosen path and in many ways foreign and mystical to the Western world (although Acupuncture has become so westernized, it's principles are still based in a different paradigm). " What is a good man but a bad man's teacher? What is a bad man but a good man's job? If you don't understand this, you will get lost, however intelligent you are. It is the great secret. " Lao-Tzu Janine - Hawai'i 2000 __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 1 Mon, 3 Jan 2000 09:17:34 EST McArenAcu Digest Number 127 Hello, my name is Isabell McAren and I am an acupuncturist in Illinois. I had a couple of comments I wanted to throw out there and see what you all thought. In Illinois, MDs and Chiropractors can practice acupuncture with little or no training. Chiropractors need only to have 200 hrs worth of seminars to practice. They also get insurance reimbursement. Acupuncturists, on the other hand, must have graduated from an accredited school, have passed the NCCA boards, have paid $500. for an Illinois license (which has to be renewed every 2 years for the same cost), and must get a referral letter from every patient's Dr. or Chiro. We can't sell herbs unless we become certified nutritionists, we can't use a laser, and we don't get insurance reimbursement. We also have to keep up with our CEU's. I was talking to a chiropractor the other day, and he said that chiropractors were the ones who brought acupuncture over to the U.S. He said they learn a different method than us, and that it is more effective. He said acupuncture can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs of just the basics and that it is ridiculous to spend 3 years in acupuncture school. He also said that the classes in acupuncture that he attended were taught by a chiropractor and were only open to chiropractors or MDs. If you weren't a Dr, you didn't get in. Does anyone out there have a comment on this? Thanks for your opinions, Isabell __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Message: 2 Mon, 3 Jan 2000 12:05:58 EST JADEFRST Re: Digest Number 127 In a message dated 1/3/2000 9:17:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, McArenAcu writes: << Hello, my name is Isabell McAren and I am an acupuncturist in Illinois. I had a couple of comments I wanted to throw out there and see what you all thought. In Illinois, MDs and Chiropractors can practice acupuncture with little or no training. Chiropractors need only to have 200 hrs worth of seminars to practice. They also get insurance reimbursement. Acupuncturists, on the other hand, must have graduated from an accredited school, have passed the NCCA boards, have paid $500. for an Illinois license (which has to be renewed every 2 years for the same cost), and must get a referral letter from every patient's Dr. or Chiro. We can't sell herbs unless we become certified nutritionists, we can't use a laser, and we don't get insurance reimbursement. We also have to keep up with our CEU's. I was talking to a chiropractor the other day, and he said that chiropractors were the ones who brought acupuncture over to the U.S. He said they learn a different method than us, and that it is more effective. He said acupuncture can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs of just the basics and that it is ridiculous to spend 3 years in acupuncture school. He also said that the classes in acupuncture that he attended were taught by a chiropractor and were only open to chiropractors or MDs. If you weren't a Dr, you didn't get in. >> Hello Isabelle, We have a similar situation here in Florida, though not as grim. Chiro's and MD's need only 200 hrs as well. We take the Florida board, and for another $800.00 you get national accreditation. Our state lisence is $400.00, We are primary care physicians, and some though not too many insurance companies pay. We too need CEU's. I beliefe it is 32 hrs every 2 yrs. They do a random audit, and if you don't have verification, it results in a fine, and/or action against your license. We have a pretty broad scope down here. Herbs and supplements as well as laser - all acceptable, as well as Tui-Na. My father, mother, and uncle as well as about 4 other extended family members are Chiropractors, and they agree that it is irresponsable to practice acupuncture with only 200 hrs. I don't think they would think that if it weren't for my educating them though. My thought is that acupuncture and Chinese medicine came over with the waves of Chinese immegrants, although some attribute it to Nixon's aide who was treated in China, and brought back news of how well it worked. (I think I have the story straight.) Our state organization is constantly fighting for our rights. The medics and chiros are constantly trying to absorb us into their scope of practice. We are going to 4 years college and four years of college in Chinese medicine, I believe in the next few years, but there is talk of disallowing any grandfathering. Your Chiro friend is mistaken in any event, and is probably trying to justify the irresponsabiliity of being sorely undereducated, and using acupuncture. If he thinks that acupuncture can easily be distilled down to 200 hrs, either believes the bill of goods that was sold to him, or he doesn't know his A** from a hole in the ground. Ask him what he thinks about acupuncturists taking a 200 hr course and being certified to correct spinal subluxations, and listen to him defended his art. It's tough for us at this stage, but I think the only way for us to survive is to support our state organizations. They are the ones who fight our battles in the gov't. Hope this was helpful, R. Scott Malone D.O.M., A.P. __________________________ ___ __________________________ ___ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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