Guest guest Posted January 9, 2000 Report Share Posted January 9, 2000 I just started my intensive lessons on TCM, here in Brasil. Our teacher (prof. Wu) is a chinese born, very " easy-going " and open fellow. But a first interesting divergence or, better said, question arised. Because of language and translation problems, and maybe even more profound " branch line " differences I couldn't clear one issue. The term " 5 element acupuncture " is an English-language denomination of a kinf of approuche - very generaly speaking here. Prof. Wu, clearly never heard of such denomination as any " particular approuche " . But he talked of " constitutional acupuncture " , wich classifies people into classes of " weak organ/vicera/meredian types " . He even went as far to say that if a subject who is correctly classifies as " weak kidneys " , and injures his ankle - should have his kidneys tonified. If he has a flue - should have the kidneys tonified. If he is impotent - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has back akes - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has stomach akes - should have the kidneys tonified. Of course it was a big laugh...but kept me thinking: - is this not the 5-E? Or....is there something in English called constitucional acupuncture apart from the 5-E approuche? regards geovani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2000 Report Share Posted January 9, 2000 Hi Geovani interesting to hear how your Professor presented the weak organ' type approach. It does sound like 5 Element.. did he go into the emotional/spiritual aspects also? I think that Professor Worsley, who headed up the '5 element school of practice in Europe, would acknowledge that he extracted from various countries' acupuncture styles what he felt worked for him, and moulded into the teaching given at Leamington in England, under the Five Element banner. Not all of it fits TCM, and its strengths in finding the 'key' to a person in strengthening them are something I've not found in classic TCM. When I explain; it to patients, I liken it to their being a chain made up of five links, with Qi flowing throughout the chain to maintain each one as a part of the whole. Yank on the chain too hard, and one link will become weakened, and while the Qi may repair it, it will from then on be that person's weak spot (called the Causative Factor in 5 Element training). In using 5 Element technique of diagnosis, colour, sound, odour and emotion are the areas we assess to determine that weak link, and by going there to treat a patient, you can reach the deepest level of their energy to make their chain strong and complete again. Personally, I use alot of TCM, but always include treatment of the CF to take the treatment home. It's a great partnership, and my patients seem to do well with it! that said, my TCM training (first trained with Prof Worsley in 5 Element) has been SO useful with physical problems of patients - and more colleges in England now are using the integrated approach. The separatism which used to exist is a long and political story, and I hope it's now history. Good luck with your studies - I wish I was you, at the foot of the mountain - the limb is fantastic, and never ends! Best wishes Amanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2000 Report Share Posted January 9, 2000 " BoumBoum " <boum.boum Hi Geovani interesting to hear how your Professor presented the weak organ' type approach. It does sound like 5 Element.. did he go into the emotional/spiritual aspects also? geovani> I can't tell, because this was just a " prewiew " of what lies ahed...so I didn't want to rush things...It will be seen in more profundity under the name " constitucional acup. " I think that Professor Worsley, who headed up the '5 element school of practice in Europe, would acknowledge that he extracted from various countries' acupuncture styles what he felt worked for him, and moulded into the teaching given at Leamington in England, under the Five Element banner. geovani>Ha.....I see. So it is a " special name " given by Prof. Worsley himself....That is why people who don't know english, or have not some kind of " internacional relations " will not know about this particular name, obviously. Not all of it fits TCM, and its strengths in finding the 'key' to a person in strengthening them are something I've not found in classic TCM. When I explain; it to patients, I liken it to their being a chain made up of five links, with Qi flowing throughout the chain to maintain each one as a part of the whole. Yank on the chain too hard, and one link will become weakened, and while the Qi may repair it, it will from then on be that person's weak spot (called the Causative Factor in 5 Element training). In using 5 Element technique of diagnosis, colour, sound, odour and emotion are the areas we assess to determine that weak link, and by going there to treat a patient, you can reach the deepest level of their energy to make their chain strong and complete again. Personally, I use alot of TCM, but always include treatment of the CF to take the treatment home. geovani> Er...what is this CF, here? It's a great partnership, and my patients seem to do well with it! that said, my TCM training (first trained with Prof Worsley in 5 Element) has been SO useful with physical problems of patients - and more colleges in England now are using the integrated approach. The separatism which used to exist is a long and political story, and I hope it's now history. Good luck with your studies - I wish I was you, at the foot of the mountain - the limb is fantastic, and never ends! Best wishes Amanda geovani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 hello, I findthe five element discussion intriguing. I would like to ask which books are reccommended for a practitioner who would like to know more aboutFive element theory & practice.Please post any that you have found helpful thanks josie At 10:51 AM 1/10/00 -0800, you wrote: >Greg Dember <dember > >>If he has back akes - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has stomach >>akes - should have the kidneys tonified. Of course it was a big >>laugh...but kept me thinking: - is this not the 5-E? Or....is there >>something in English called constitucional acupuncture apart from the 5-E >>approuche? > >The name " Five Element Acupuncture " is a misnomer. It implies that only >5-E practitioners use the 5-elements, which is not the case at all. The >first thing I learned at acupuncture school was the theory of >Yin-and-Yang and the theory of the five elements. The general public >also seems to get the impression that only 5-E practitioners treat >problems at the root or constitutional level. This is also not true at >all. This is why I often get annoyed at 5-E. > >I would rather it be called Woorsleyan Acupuncture. > >What sets Woorsleyan Acupuncture apart, from my perspective, is the >particular techniques that the system emphasizes, the method of >interpreting the pulse, the needling style, point location " dialect " , etc. > >--greg > >--------------------------- ONElist Sponsor ---------------------------- > >Get great offers on top-notch products that match your interests! >Sign up for eLerts at: ><a href= " http://clickme./ad/elerts1 " >Click Here</a> > >------ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Books that are useful for five-element theory: Dianne Connelly : The Law of Five Elements anything by Professor JR Worsley also. for integrated approach with TCM, anything by John or Angie Hicks, Peter Mole, All published in England but should be available in the States Regards Amanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 >If he has back akes - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has stomach >akes - should have the kidneys tonified. Of course it was a big >laugh...but kept me thinking: - is this not the 5-E? Or....is there >something in English called constitucional acupuncture apart from the 5-E >approuche? The name " Five Element Acupuncture " is a misnomer. It implies that only 5-E practitioners use the 5-elements, which is not the case at all. The first thing I learned at acupuncture school was the theory of Yin-and-Yang and the theory of the five elements. The general public also seems to get the impression that only 5-E practitioners treat problems at the root or constitutional level. This is also not true at all. This is why I often get annoyed at 5-E. I would rather it be called Woorsleyan Acupuncture. What sets Woorsleyan Acupuncture apart, from my perspective, is the particular techniques that the system emphasizes, the method of interpreting the pulse, the needling style, point location " dialect " , etc. --greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Greg Dember <dember >If he has back akes - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has stomach >akes - should have the kidneys tonified. Of course it was a big >laugh...but kept me thinking: - is this not the 5-E? Or....is there >something in English called constitucional acupuncture apart from the 5-E >approuche? The name " Five Element Acupuncture " is a misnomer. geovani> Yes. It sounds like a pleonasm. It realy may bring one to assume that there is some serious acupuncture practice somewhere, that doesn't use the 5-E theory. It implies that only 5-E practitioners use the 5-elements, which is not the case at all. The first thing I learned at acupuncture school was the theory of Yin-and-Yang and the theory of the five elements. The general public also seems to get the impression that only 5-E practitioners treat problems at the root or constitutional level. This is also not true at all. This is why I often get annoyed at 5-E. I would rather it be called Woorsleyan Acupuncture. geovani> Yes, this sheds some light on the " origin " of the " 5E movement " . I just read that the " constitucional acup " was introduced in Brasil, around 1973 - ...I wonder if it did not originated from some " interpretation " on Dr Worsley's work. What sets Woorsleyan Acupuncture apart, from my perspective, is the particular techniques that the system emphasizes, the method of interpreting the pulse, the needling style, point location " dialect " , etc. geovani> Interesting.....and also, maybe (correct me if I am wrong), the enphasis on pinpointing the " weak aspect " of the person. Anyway, I must study the thing in more detail. (I don't have a credit card to help me order some books through the net) :^) --greg geovani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 Greg, I'm interested in what you meant by 'point location dialect' - could you expand, please (not literally !) thanks Amanda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2000 Report Share Posted January 10, 2000 >geovani said> Yes, this sheds some light on the " origin " of the " 5E movement " . >I just read that the " constitucional acup " was introduced in Brasil, around >1973 - ...I wonder if it did not originated from some " interpretation " on >Dr Worsley's work. > I said: >What sets Woorsleyan Acupuncture apart, from my perspective, is the >particular techniques that the system emphasizes, the method of >interpreting the pulse, the needling style, point location " dialect " , etc. > >geovani said> Interesting.....and also, maybe (correct me if I am wrong), the >enphasis on pinpointing the " weak aspect " of the person. And I say: No -- I don't know any " TCM " acupuncturist who does not identify an underlying energetic imbalance as part of treating a patient. The Five Elements were not invented or discovered by Worsley. They are a major aspect of traditional Chinese thought (and not in medicine only). I actually prefer to say the " Five Phases " because of the cyclical relationship that exists among them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2000 Report Share Posted January 12, 2000 >Greg, I'm interested in what you meant by 'point location dialect' - could >you expand, please (not literally !) > >thanks > >Amanda I have colleagues who I went to " regular " acupuncture school with, and who then went on and studied Worsleyan Acupuncture, and they have shown me how they have learned slightly different locations for certain points. It's the same " language " , but a different " dialect " , like American and British English. Greg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2000 Report Share Posted January 12, 2000 Hi Mirva and Giovanni, Which method you use to strengthen each element and corresponding constitutional weakness? Pedro - Mirva & Gye Bennetts acupuncture Wednesday, January 12, 2000 11:21 PM Re: acupuncture TCM in the world " Mirva & Gye Bennetts " <gyemirva Hello Giovanni, Sorry I have just found your e-mail even though I found other people on the list alluding to it. Yes in some ways this is what is being referred to as Five Element acupuncture. That is you find the person constitutional weakness and keep supporting that. In doing that the person as a whole will change and grow and the physical symptoms be more likely not to return. Gye I just started my intensive lessons on TCM, here in Brasil. Our teacher (prof. Wu) is a chinese born, very " easy-going " and open fellow. But a first interesting divergence or, better said, question arised. Because of language and translation problems, and maybe even more profound " branch line " differences I couldn't clear one issue. The term " 5 element acupuncture " is an English-language denomination of a kinf of approuche - very generaly speaking here. Prof. Wu, clearly never heard of such denomination as any " particular approuche " . But he talked of " constitutional acupuncture " , wich classifies people into classes of " weak organ/vicera/meredian types " . He even went as far to say that if a subject who is correctly classifies as " weak kidneys " , and injures his ankle - should have his kidneys tonified. If he has a flue - should have the kidneys tonified. If he is impotent - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has back akes - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has stomach akes - should have the kidneys tonified. Of course it was a big laugh...but kept me thinking: - is this not the 5-E? Or....is there something in English called constitucional acupuncture apart from the 5-E approuche? regards geovani ---------- Please click above to support our sponsor ---------- Please click above to support our sponsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2000 Report Share Posted January 13, 2000 Hello Giovanni, Sorry I have just found your e-mail even though I found other people on the list alluding to it. Yes in some ways this is what is being referred to as Five Element acupuncture. That is you find the person constitutional weakness and keep supporting that. In doing that the person as a whole will change and grow and the physical symptoms be more likely not to return. Gye I just started my intensive lessons on TCM, here in Brasil. Our teacher (prof. Wu) is a chinese born, very " easy-going " and open fellow. But a first interesting divergence or, better said, question arised. Because of language and translation problems, and maybe even more profound " branch line " differences I couldn't clear one issue. The term " 5 element acupuncture " is an English-language denomination of a kinf of approuche - very generaly speaking here. Prof. Wu, clearly never heard of such denomination as any " particular approuche " . But he talked of " constitutional acupuncture " , wich classifies people into classes of " weak organ/vicera/meredian types " . He even went as far to say that if a subject who is correctly classifies as " weak kidneys " , and injures his ankle - should have his kidneys tonified. If he has a flue - should have the kidneys tonified. If he is impotent - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has back akes - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has stomach akes - should have the kidneys tonified. Of course it was a big laugh...but kept me thinking: - is this not the 5-E? Or....is there something in English called constitucional acupuncture apart from the 5-E approuche? regards geovani Please click above to support our sponsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2000 Report Share Posted January 13, 2000 This constitutional therapy reminds me of Homeopathic doctrine. How do you relate in therapy const. defic. to const. strength? Clasical Acupuncture describes 4 types of syndromes, each one leading to a particular and individualized treatment: 1- Six meridians Synd 2- Energy-blood synd 3- San Jiao synd and 4- Organs syndromes After we go through proper diagnosis we have a pretty good idea of basic constitution of the patient. What I see in clasical TCM aproach is that it relies more on yin-yang diag than on 5 phase. Personally I use and believe in 5 elements, yet I disagree with a 5 phase cycle, as earth is the center, not a part of the wheel. It is a protoelement previous to the other four. This theory has changed several times through chinese history , as Richard Ambelain (french sinologist and author of varios books on chinese thought) states. Pedro - Mirva & Gye Bennetts acupuncture Friday, January 14, 2000 12:14 AM Re: acupuncture TCM in the world " Mirva & Gye Bennetts " <gyemirva The Basic idea for 5 element is by working our which is the constitutional weakness (C.F.) using the colour of the skin, sound of the voice, odour and emotion that is prominent you treat that element only. That is an earth person will have after blocks cleared, points on the Stomach and Spleen, Ren and Du and St and Spl Back Shu points done mostly with pea moxa and tonify needles. This is a stupidly short answer, but some kind of answer Gye Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 The Basic idea for 5 element is by working our which is the constitutional weakness (C.F.) using the colour of the skin, sound of the voice, odour and emotion that is prominent you treat that element only. That is an earth person will have after blocks cleared, points on the Stomach and Spleen, Ren and Du and St and Spl Back Shu points done mostly with pea moxa and tonify needles. This is a stupidly short answer, but some kind of answer Gye - Pedro Morales acupuncture Thursday, January 13, 2000 8:27 RE: acupuncture TCM in the world " Pedro Morales " <pamg21 Hi Mirva and Giovanni, Which method you use to strengthen each element and corresponding constitutional weakness? Pedro - Mirva & Gye Bennetts acupuncture Wednesday, January 12, 2000 11:21 PM Re: acupuncture TCM in the world " Mirva & Gye Bennetts " <gyemirva Hello Giovanni, Sorry I have just found your e-mail even though I found other people on the list alluding to it. Yes in some ways this is what is being referred to as Five Element acupuncture. That is you find the person constitutional weakness and keep supporting that. In doing that the person as a whole will change and grow and the physical symptoms be more likely not to return. Gye I just started my intensive lessons on TCM, here in Brasil. Our teacher (prof. Wu) is a chinese born, very " easy-going " and open fellow. But a first interesting divergence or, better said, question arised. Because of language and translation problems, and maybe even more profound " branch line " differences I couldn't clear one issue. The term " 5 element acupuncture " is an English-language denomination of a kinf of approuche - very generaly speaking here. Prof. Wu, clearly never heard of such denomination as any " particular approuche " . But he talked of " constitutional acupuncture " , wich classifies people into classes of " weak organ/vicera/meredian types " . He even went as far to say that if a subject who is correctly classifies as " weak kidneys " , and injures his ankle - should have his kidneys tonified. If he has a flue - should have the kidneys tonified. If he is impotent - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has back akes - should have the kidneys tonified. If he has stomach akes - should have the kidneys tonified. Of course it was a big laugh...but kept me thinking: - is this not the 5-E? Or....is there something in English called constitucional acupuncture apart from the 5-E approuche? regards geovani -------- Please click above to support our sponsor -------- ---------- Please click above to support our sponsor ---------- Please click above to support our sponsor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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