Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 " Mirva & Gye Bennetts " <gyemirva The Basic idea for 5 element is by working our which is the constitutional weakness (C.F.) using the colour of the skin, sound of the voice, odour and emotion that is prominent you treat that element only. That is an earth person will have after blocks cleared, points on the Stomach and Spleen, Ren and Du and St and Spl Back Shu points done mostly with pea moxa and tonify needles. This is a stupidly short answer, but some kind of answer Gye " Pedro Morales " <pamg21 This constitutional therapy reminds me of Homeopathic doctrine. How do you relate in therapy const. defic. to const. strength? geovani>Yes, the constitucional approuche reminds one of the Homeopathic practice. I use the word practice instead of douctrine because of the pragmatic implications. I don't think one could talk of constitucional strength, related to TCM, in a practical level. If an organ/meredian is sane, has not any QI deficiency, then any surplus of energy will be of exogenous nature. The quality of " strength " would be related to a capacity to resist the atack of exogenous agents (or internal), but not mesurable in terms of QI level. Constitucional deficiency in the other hand is measurable as a low level of QI in some particular " aspect " of the organism. May be lack of yin or lack of yang. Clasical Acupuncture describes 4 types of syndromes, each one leading to a particular and individualized treatment: 1- Six meridians Synd 2- Energy-blood synd 3- San Jiao synd and 4- Organs syndromes After we go through proper diagnosis we have a pretty good idea of basic constitution of the patient. What I see in clasical TCM aproach is that it relies more on yin-yang diag than on 5 phase. geovani> What do you mean here, Pedro? If you use the " mother " to tonify the " sun " - you are using the 5 phase principle, aren't you? If you use the " old extremity chinese points " , you are using the 5 elements implicitly. Personally I use and believe in 5 elements, yet I disagree with a 5 phase cycle, as earth is the center, not a part of the wheel. It is a protoelement previous to the other four. This theory has changed several times through chinese history , as Richard Ambelain (french sinologist and author of varios books on chinese thought) states. Pedro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 14, 2000 Report Share Posted January 14, 2000 " Pedro Morales " <pamg21 This constitutional therapy reminds me of Homeopathic doctrine. How do you relate in therapy const. defic. to const. strength? geovani>Yes, the constitucional approuche reminds one of the Homeopathic practice. I use the word practice instead of douctrine because of the pragmatic implications. I don't think one could talk of constitucional strength, related to TCM, in a practical level. If an organ/meredian is sane, has not any QI deficiency, then any surplus of energy will be of exogenous nature. The quality of " strength " would be related to a capacity to resist the atack of exogenous agents (or internal), but not mesurable in terms of QI level. Constitucional deficiency in the other hand is measurable as a low level of QI in some particular " aspect " of the organism. May be lack of yin or lack of yang. Pedro> I agree with that perspective of strenght. And I also believe we have a weak side and a strong side. Still, my question is: being a holistic organism, we cannot split one side from the other,so, practically, how do they relate in this aproach? " Clasical Acupuncture describes 4 types of syndromes, each one leading to a particular and individualized treatment: 1- Six meridians Synd 2- Energy-blood synd 3- San Jiao synd and 4- Organs syndromes After we go through proper diagnosis we have a pretty good idea of basic constitution of the patient. What I see in clasical TCM aproach is that it relies more on yin-yang diag than on 5 phase. " geovani> What do you mean here, Pedro? If you use the " mother " to tonify the " sun " - you are using the 5 phase principle, aren't you? If you use the " old extremity chinese points " , you are using the 5 elements implicitly. Pedr> Personally I use and believe in 5 elements, yet I disagree with a 5 phase cycle, as earth is the center, not a part of the wheel. It is a protoelement previous to the other four. This theory has changed several times through chinese history , as Richard Ambelain (french sinologist and author of varios books on chinese thought) states. Pedro>I mean here several things. One of them is that Acupuncture is not all over accepted in many of its principles, one of them being 5 phase cycle. When we diagnose according to yin & yang we do not necesarily use 5 phase theory. It is a more basic approach, and historically appeared earlier. For example if you have influenza with cold feet and headache and legs weak, and hot hands, then you have a syndrome of excess of yang in the upper and deficiency of yang in the lower. So you do some of known points to push yang to the lower, like 37Stom. Besides that, mother & son change according to a 4+1 phase or a 5 phase cycle. If you study Dr. Van gni monumental work on acupuncture, you can see he defends 5 phase theory, but when it comes to practice, yin yang theory weights more than the former. 5 phase theory is very appealing, and I believe it rests on a sound thrue which is the cuaternary cycle of every material phenomena. Yet here the problems begin, because, do we really understand the meaning of air, water, fire and earth?, being aether the 5th element. As a read all literature of the last centuries on the subject, I see only a repetition of mistakes. This is a subject I have been reflecting upon since some years ago, I even wrote a book on it - " Quadrantics " . One of the most misleading things here is the fact that we validate our theories in our success, which is not a sound practice. For example, if you drive your car very well, yet you say your car moves because of some celestial spirit, or because you're a magician, then you're wrong, but still you can be very successfull in driving your car. Same situation happens to many forms of Alternative Medicine, including Acupuncture. Many therapists doing diferent forms of healing do have success, even if what they believe is theoretically opposite. It is said that the main quality of an Acupuncturist is his surrender to heaven, of which he is a mere channel. Beyond that, so much of our discourse is just ego arrogance. Yet we are here to play in the big theatre... Sorry, am I talking too much? If all this makes you sleepy just tell... I came here to share some thoughts which are not always easy to explain... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 15, 2000 Report Share Posted January 15, 2000 This constitutional therapy reminds me of Homeopathic doctrine. How do you relate in therapy const. defic. to const. strength? geovani>Yes, the constitucional approuche reminds one of the Homeopathic practice. I use the word practice instead of douctrine because of the pragmatic implications. I don't think one could talk of constitucional strength, related to TCM, in a practical level. If an organ/meredian is sane, has not any QI deficiency, then any surplus of energy will be of exogenous nature. The quality of " strength " would be related to a capacity to resist the atack of exogenous agents (or internal), but not mesurable in terms of QI level. Constitucional deficiency in the other hand is measurable as a low level of QI in some particular " aspect " of the organism. May be lack of yin or lack of yang. Pedro> I agree with that perspective of strenght. And I also believe we have a weak side and a strong side. Still, my question is: being a holistic organism, we cannot split one side from the other,so, practically, how do they relate in this aproach? geovani> The universe is a (one) whole. It manifests itself as plurality. We may identify diferent energies in the body, and yes - I agree - they must relate somehow. This being said and agreed (it seems so), please re-state the issue you would like to clear. " Clasical Acupuncture describes 4 types of syndromes, each one leading to a particular and individualized treatment: 1- Six meridians Synd 2- Energy-blood synd 3- San Jiao synd and 4- Organs syndromes After we go through proper diagnosis we have a pretty good idea of basic constitution of the patient. What I see in clasical TCM aproach is that it relies more on yin-yang diag than on 5 phase. " geovani> What do you mean here, Pedro? If you use the " mother " to tonify the " sun " - you are using the 5 phase principle, aren't you? If you use the " old extremity chinese points " , you are using the 5 elements implicitly. Pedr> Personally I use and believe in 5 elements, yet I disagree with a 5 phase cycle, as earth is the center, not a part of the wheel. It is a protoelement previous to the other four. This theory has changed several times through chinese history , as Richard Ambelain (french sinologist and author of varios books on chinese thought) states. geovani>I see it much simpler then that. One, or some people - 3 thousund years ago - " dicovered " that there is a law that rules certain interrelations. They saw that it consisted of 5 phases. Then they associated each one of this phases or elements to something in nature, to something that would render it easy to memorise and transmit. If this would be discovered today, probably the associated elements would not be those. Maybe something like electrons, photons, neutrons. Or some matematical relation. The important part is not the name of the elements, imo, but the existence of such relations. You seem to give special importance to the element " earth " . No need to. The important thing would be to see the validation of the 5 phase movement - with any names. Pedro>I mean here several things. One of them is that Acupuncture is not all over accepted in many of its principles, one of them being 5 phase cycle. When we diagnose according to yin & yang we do not necesarily use 5 phase theory. It is a more basic approach, and historically appeared earlier. For example if you have influenza with cold feet and headache and legs weak, and hot hands, then you have a syndrome of excess of yang in the upper and deficiency of yang in the lower. So you do some of known points to push yang to the lower, like 37Stom. Besides that, mother & son change according to a 4+1 phase or a 5 phase cycle. If you study Dr. Van gni monumental work on acupuncture, you can see he defends 5 phase theory, but when it comes to practice, yin yang theory weights more than the former. geovani> An organ is " weak " because yin or yang is lacking. That is what is seen, what is perceived pragmaticaly either through the pulse, or questionary, or any other means.Now one has to act. I can hardly think of any line of action that would not use the 5E implicitly or explicitly. Pedro>...5 phase theory is very appealing, and I believe it rests on a sound thrue which is the cuaternary cycle of every material phenomena. Yet here the problems begin, because, do we really understand the meaning of air, water, fire and earth?, being aether the 5th element. As a read all literature of the last centuries on the subject, I see only a repetition of mistakes. This is a subject I have been reflecting upon since some years ago, I even wrote a book on it - " Quadrantics " . One of the most misleading things here is the fact that we validate our theories in our success, which is not a sound practice. For example, if you drive your car very well, yet you say your car moves because of some celestial spirit, or because you're a magician, then you're wrong, but still you can be very successfull in driving your car. geovani>BTW, I would say that if one says that the car is driven by a celestial force - I would agree fully :^) What is not celestial in its origin? Is there any fenomenon that stays " oustside " the movement of natural events? Is not my hability to drive the car, the car itself, and my own body/mind from the same nature and origin as the winds, the rain, the storm and the stars and seas? To state that there is this inner separate entity as a " me " is the nature of our dual-perception of existence, imho. But, going back to acup. :^) - i understand your questioning - although not in details. Anyway...I think I will be able to opinate only when I see the results by myself - through my own practice. Pedro>...Same situation happens to many forms of Alternative Medicine, including Acupuncture. Many therapists doing diferent forms of healing do have success, even if what they believe is theoretically opposite. geovani> Good to hear that!! :^) Pedro>...It is said that the main quality of an Acupuncturist is his surrender to heaven.... geovani> Yes that's what I meant above. I'd say that the understanding of the nature of duality is important not only to an acupuncturist, but to any human being... Pedro>...of which he is a mere channel. Beyond that, so much of our discourse is just ego arrogance. Yet we are here to play in the big theatre... geovani>Agreed. Ego IS that entity that mistakenly feels to belong to a diferent movement from the only universe there is. Pedro>..Sorry, am I talking too much? If all this makes you sleepy just tell... I came here to share some thoughts which are not always easy to explain... geovani> It is OK by me - but I can't speak in behalf of the others. Maybe we'll get kicked out of this list soon! LOL LOL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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